It's not about what you get out of it

[johnnyc176]

There’s the scene in the movie The 10 commandments where Moses speaks to God in the burning bush which I think is spectacular. It gives me goosebumps…

youtube.com/watch?v=zUm6rC0o7Po

We have something as great as that when we go to Mass or Divine Liturgy. It’s an awesome scene to keep in your mind anytime we have the privilege of being in a Catholic Church. Who needs to say **anything? ** We should be falling on our face.

Wow Penny…that is awesome. I know when I enter the Adoration Chapel that is what I do and I notice many who are able also do that.

 

[Sariaru]

We shouldn’t be trying to “get something” out of church; we should go because we love God, regardless of what we get out of worship. And I think that’s probably a point everyone in this thread can agree on.

Sariaru, actually I do disagree. As humans and creatures we are fundamentally needy. As we children grow and mature we learn to give back, but we never stop needing to receive.

You have just made the following argument:

1. Church offers me things that are for my spiritual benefit, through the mercy and grace of God.
2. I, as an unworthy sinner, am in dire need of these things.
3. Only mature Christians have anything to offer God.
4. Because I need these things, it is morally permissible for me to not attend church should it ever cease to provide me these things.

To disagree with the statement: “we should worship because we love God” (which is what I said and you disagreed with), seems contrary to basically every Bibical example I can think of. On a personal scale, take Job. He wasn’t getting much out of his worship. Take the Isrealites in exile; they offered their love because loving your Creator is the right thing to do.

 

[Sariaru]

We receive all this richness even if we are very imperfectly aware of it.

That’s not what I asked. I know we are blessed by attending even if we don’t feel sparkly and wonderful after attending. But that is not the question I asked. So I’ll ask it again:

Would you go to church to worship God if you received absolutely no graces or benefits whatsoever from it? Simple question, yes or no answer.

 

[dronald]

There’s nothing wrong with being in a Church to worship God with others, then to have fellowship, etc.

 

[johnnyc176]

What we bring to it is our miserable selves, falling on our knees in worship. What we get out of it is the Bread of Life. That’s hard to beat. This happens even if the music is terrible and the homily dead boring. It is the union of God with man, the entire purpose for Christ’s coming.

This is awesome too. So many wonderful testimonies of the Source and Summit of the Christian Life.

Will you also go away?

CCC…the Lords question echoes through the ages as a loving invitation to discover that only He has the words of eternal life and that to receive in Faith the gift of His Eucharist is to receive the Lord Himself.

 

[steido01]

To disagree with the statement: “we should worship because we love God” (which is what I said and you disagreed with), seems contrary to basically every Bibical example I can think of.

I don’t necessarily disagree with the bolded, but I do think that it is more correctly stated when phrased, “We should worship because we are loved by God.”

We are, after all, when taken just as we are, nothing but poor miserable sinners constantly in need of Holy Absolution for the sins that we constantly commit due to our sinful, unclean and fallen nature. Without God’s help, we couldn’t love Him if we tried. To say otherwise seems contrary to every Biblical example I can think of. Just my :twocents:

 

[Sariaru]

There’s nothing wrong with being in a Church to worship God with others, then to have fellowship, etc.

For the third time, I am not arguing that these are bad or that it is wrong to desire fellowship.

I don’t necessarily disagree with the bolded, but I do think that it is more correctly stated when phrased, “We should worship because we are loved by God.”

So God’s love for us is what makes Him worthy of our worship? He has to do something to earn it? We only worship because He loves us? Perhaps theologically sound, but thin ice nonetheless. God is worthy of worship because He is the Creator and Sustainer and Saviour.

We are, after all, when taken just as we are, nothing but poor miserable sinners constantly in need of Holy Absolution for the sins that we constantly commit due to our sinful, unclean and fallen nature. Without God’s help, we couldn’t love Him if we tried. To say otherwise seems contrary to every Biblical example I can think of. Just my :twocents:

And yet, we were created to worship God, were we not? Even before the Fall, love of God was written on Man’s heart. So clearly we do not love because we are fallen, else Adam and Eve would not have been under moral imperative to love the Lord. But because they were, we can ascertain that we worship not because we have fallen, but in spite of the Fall. No doubt, the felix culpa gives us a greater cause for worship, but not the first nor the only.

 

[johnnyc176]

Does it not make you nervous as Catholics that God will judge you more harshly if you’re so quick to look at Protestants with your nose in the air based on what you think they feel and want? I know that if I was so quick to say that the people in Mass look bored and
uninterested God may hold that against me later if my mind ever wonders

Come on…there is no need to cast aspertions. We as, Catholics, only want you to join in the superabundance of this unique Bread of His Eucharist.

‘My Flesh is true Food. My Blood is true Drink.’…that is the ultimate fellowship.

 

[hockeyfan]

Apart from perhaps the Eucharist and how one defines the Lord’s supper (because that’s for another topic)…

Apart from the Eucharist? That is a strange thing to say about the mass as opposed to a Protestant worship service. That is all the difference. There would really be no difference if it weren’t for the Eucharist. In fact, if it weren’t for the Eucharist, I would say that as far as a worship service is concerned, I would support what most Protestants do. In the words of Flannery O’Conner, “If the Eucharist is just a symbol, then to Hell with it”

…does anyone here believe that Protestants don’t have their full heart and soul into their worship of God?

I don’t believe that. I do believe that Protestants have a different idea on what church is about. I do believe that Protestants are looking for more then worship but I would not question if they are devoting themselves to worship. I know some wonderful Protestants of the Pentecostal, Baptist and Non-Denominational backgrounds who are on fire with love and worship for the Lord. I may sometimes disagree with a doctrine or practice but in the end I always remember that they are right on 95% of Christianity. The 5% may be very important but they have a great deal of it down. I leave judgments about a persons heart and it’s devotion to God to a more qualified source then you or me.

Does it not make you nervous as Catholics that God will judge you more harshly if you’re so quick to look at Protestants with your nose in the air based on what you think they feel and want?

I don’t think I am judging them as harshly as you describe. I admit I am acknowledging a major difference in the way we view the role of going to church then you. You may feel I am keeping my nose in the air but in the end it does boil down to the Eucharist. Christ is present and I think if you saw that it would be a game changer in how you worshiped.

I know that if I was so quick to say that the people in Mass look bored and uninterested God may hold that against me later if my mind ever wonders.

Yes, I know you can. I am sure if I went into many Protestant churches, I could pick out the weak like the sick gazelle in a herd too. I have went to more then a few.

You basically took everything here and made it sound immature or negative imo. I can help you re-word:

1. Fellowship so one can feel loved when they don’t have anyone
2. Psalm 150
   2.5. An engaging or thought-provoking homily
3. Bible study
4. Fellowship again…?

I think there is a place for all those things in church. The only thing I do have to say about that, though, is if I only had that I would be a little sad. Music, community and intellectual stimulation is great. I do have to ask you, in those 5 things, where does it say prayer or worship? I know that tons of Protestants are devoted to worship but I am specifically referring to the church service. I would be a little sad if I lived with services only like that. It seems a little shallow, in my opinion. Also, if the pastor was a little off or the music director wasn’t in that day, it seems like I could lose my spiritual fulfillment for a whole week. In a mass, no matter what, I know I will receive Jesus and I get to worship, adore and receive him intimately inside my body, regardless of how good a job the priest does. Even if the choir is absent and there is no music. (this is as a person who loves music)

There’s nothing wrong with being in a Church to worship God with others, then to have fellowship, etc.

Nothing. That is what should be done. I am not sure if you meant it this way when you wrote the sentence or not but you said church and THEN fellowship. We need fellowship but does that belong in the mass? (or in your case, church service) A church is a community, there should be fellowship but that should NOT be the reason why we go to mass.

 

[AbideWithMe]

We receive all this richness even if we are very imperfectly aware of it.

That’s not what I asked. I know we are blessed by attending even if we don’t feel sparkly and wonderful after attending. But that is not the question I asked. So I’ll ask it again:

Would you go to church to worship God if you received absolutely no graces or benefits whatsoever from it? Simple question, yes or no answer.

Sariaru–Unless a person is in an abusive or toxic church, when a person goes to church it’s not really possible to receive “absolutely no graces or benefits whatsoever from it”. A person may not be well aware, or unaware for a long time, of the benefits they are receiving, but they are being benefited nevertheless.

If what you mean to be asking is: Would I go to church even if I received absolutely no immediate gratification whatsoever from it? then yes, I’ll answer that I would.

 

[Celtic_Maiden]

Why do Protestants on this Forum show such raw anti Christian sentiments, are they afraid of something that makes them answer in a non charitable way a question that is put on the Forum with a nasty answer i.e nose in air, etc. A Big chip on the Shoulder, and I wonder why,… they are in the wrong Church.

 

[AbideWithMe]

You have just made the following argument:

1. Church offers me things that are for my spiritual benefit, through the mercy and grace of God.
2. I, as an unworthy sinner, am in dire need of these things.
3. Only mature Christians have anything to offer God.
4. Because I need these things, it is morally permissible for me to not attend church should it ever cease to provide me these things.

To disagree with the statement: “we should worship because we love God” (which is what I said and you disagreed with), seems contrary to basically every Bibical example I can think of. On a personal scale, take Job. He wasn’t getting much out of his worship. Take the Isrealites in exile; they offered their love because loving your Creator is the right thing to do.

Sariaru-----No, you’re reading things into what I actually said. I did, in effect, say numbers 1 and 2, but not 3 and 4; those are your misinterpretations of what I said.

I’ll quote from 1 John: “In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, so we also ought to love one another. No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us and His love is perfected in us.” “We love because He first loved us.” We have nothing at all to give that we have not first received from God.

Job does serve as an example of what I’m trying to say. He said to his wife “Shall we receive good from the Lord’s hand and shall we not accept adversity?” He had already accepted good from God, and though he became bewildered, passionately perplexed, and even angry with God at all the adversity he was also given, he accepted it in trust of God’s goodness and ultimate lovingkindness. Job received spiritual and material good from God; we, who live after the cross of Christ, have received an abundance from God through the cross, even if we are never materially blessed.

 

[AbideWithMe]

So God’s love for us is what makes Him worthy of our worship? He has to do something to earn it? We only worship because He loves us? Perhaps theologically sound, but thin ice nonetheless. God is worthy of worship because He is the Creator and Sustainer and Saviour.

It’s not about God be undeserving of our worship unless He earns it. It’s that we creatures can’t give anything unless we’ve first received it from God. We need to see love being modeled, and we need to receive love in order to know how to give it. As infants, children, and adults, both in the natural order and spiritual order, we are both receivers and givers.

 

[steido01]

So God’s love for us is what makes Him worthy of our worship? He has to do something to earn it? We only worship because He loves us? Perhaps theologically sound, but thin ice nonetheless. God is worthy of worship because He is the Creator and Sustainer and Saviour.

And yet, we were created to worship God, were we not? Even before the Fall, love of God was written on Man’s heart. So clearly we do not love because we are fallen, else Adam and Eve would not have been under moral imperative to love the Lord. But because they were, we can ascertain that we worship not because we have fallen, but in spite of the Fall. No doubt, the felix culpa gives us a greater cause for worship, but not the first nor the only.

Certainly God’s love for us makes Him worthy of our praise. We worship God precisely because He is our Creator, Sustainer and Savior. If He were not our Creator, Sustainer and Savior, then He would be a created creature no different from you or me - and no created being is worthy of worship. I don’t think you would disagree, and I don’t believe I said anything to the contrary. I agree that we ought to love God (we were created for that very purpose, after all) but we demonstrate every day in our thoughts, words and deeds that, on our own, we are capable of loving neither God nor neighbor. This is why we need the Sacraments and His church. Despite the nature we inherited from the Fall, He still comes to us, pardons all our sins, and grants us peace. That is why we worship. We receive Him in the Sacraments. If we think that our sinful, fallen lives -on their own- can provide anything worthwhile to God, then we are sadly mistaken. “Our” sacrifice was made once and for all time at Golgotha.

 

[steido01]

It’s not about God be undeserving of our worship unless He earns it. It’s that we creatures can’t give anything unless we’ve first received it from God. We need to see love being modeled, and we need to receive love in order to know how to give it. As infants, children, and adults, both in the natural order and spiritual order, we are both receivers and givers.

I would go further. We are receivers, but we aren’t givers - we’re simply reflectors.

 

[steido01]

Why do Protestants on this Forum show such raw anti Christian sentiments, are they afraid of something that makes them answer in a non charitable way a question that is put on the Forum with a nasty answer i.e nose in air, etc. A Big chip on the Shoulder, and I wonder why,… they are in the wrong Church.

I’m not seeing what you’re referring to. Can you explain?

 

[AbideWithMe]

I would go further. We are receivers, but we aren’t givers - we’re simply reflectors.

I agree in respect to God that we are reflectors. In respect to other people, we can give, by passing on as channels, the love that has its wellspring in God.

 

[SteveVH]

In a Protestant Church one attends a service. In the Catholic Church one attends the Holy Mass. There is nothing wrong, for the most part, with what happens at a Protestant service. It is not what they have, it is what they don’t have.

This has nothing to do with sincerity or desire to serve God or degree of love for God that one may have. If you don’t have the Eucharist you don’t have the Eucharist, plain and simple. And that makes all the difference.

We must also acknowledge that there are Protestant denominations, principally Anglican and Lutheran, who also believe in and celebrate the Eucharist. While the validity of these celebrations may be questionable to some, the fact remains that the Eucharist is the principal reason for their gathering.

 

[dronald]

In a Protestant Church one attends a service. In the Catholic Church one attends the Holy Mass. There is nothing wrong, for the most part, with what happens at a Protestant service. It is not what they have, it is what they don’t have.

This has nothing to do with sincerity or desire to serve God or degree of love for God that one may have. If you don’t have the Eucharist you don’t have the Eucharist, plain and simple. And that makes all the difference.

We must also acknowledge that there are Protestant denominations, principally Anglican and Lutheran, who also believe in and celebrate the Eucharist. While the validity of these celebrations may be questionable to some, the fact remains that the Eucharist is the principal reason for their gathering.

Thanks, I would agree with this. Protestants go to Church to worship God; and making new friends, finding someone who you’ll marry (this is in my case) having a thought provoking message and having a deeper knowledge of the Bible might just happen too. I think everyone has admitted that there’s nothing wrong with all this.

 

[hockeyfan]

In a Protestant Church one attends a service. In the Catholic Church one attends the Holy Mass. There is nothing wrong, for the most part, with what happens at a Protestant service. It is not what they have, it is what they don’t have.

This has nothing to do with sincerity or desire to serve God or degree of love for God that one may have. If you don’t have the Eucharist you don’t have the Eucharist, plain and simple. And that makes all the difference.

We must also acknowledge that there are Protestant denominations, principally Anglican and Lutheran, who also believe in and celebrate the Eucharist. While the validity of these celebrations may be questionable to some, the fact remains that the Eucharist is the principal reason for their gathering.

Very well put!

Thanks, I would agree with this. Protestants go to Church to worship God; and making new friends, finding someone who you’ll marry (this is in my case) having a thought provoking message and having a deeper knowledge of the Bible might just happen too. I think everyone has admitted that there’s nothing wrong with all this.

I would also agree with this too. There is nothing wrong with all those things. In fact, a vibrant church community should have all those things. The difference between a Catholic and a Protestant service is the Eucharist, and that is a game changer. Besides that,the differences between us become much smaller.