It's not about what you get out of it

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In a Protestant Church one attends a service. In the Catholic Church one attends the Holy Mass. There is nothing wrong, for the most part, with what happens at a Protestant service. It is not what they have, it is what they don’t have.

This has nothing to do with sincerity or desire to serve God or degree of love for God that one may have. If you don’t have the Eucharist you don’t have the Eucharist, plain and simple. And that makes all the difference.

We must also acknowledge that there are Protestant denominations, principally Anglican and Lutheran, who also believe in and celebrate the Eucharist. While the validity of these celebrations may be questionable to some, the fact remains that the Eucharist is the principal reason for their gathering.
Well some clarification is needed. Any service that has “communion” is Eucharisting in this regard-that they are giving thanksgiving to God for Christ and His new covenant thru the symbols of bread and wine. This is true no matter what you believe real presence is or isn’t …However , I know what you mean, that many believe the Body of Jesus (not the congregation which is also the Body of Christ) is made present in the symbols. This for sure many do not have/believe. But we all Eucharist -give thanks for Christ, the original meaning and intent.
 
Why do Protestants on this Forum show such raw anti Christian sentiments, are they afraid of something that makes them answer in a non charitable way a question that is put on the Forum with a nasty answer i.e nose in air, etc. A Big chip on the Shoulder, and I wonder why,… they are in the wrong Church.
Sorry . Was it anti christian or anti catholic stuff you’ve seen her . Anything specific ? Hopefully you are not chiding any particular church because of an uncharitable member.
 
Well some clarification is needed. Any service that has “communion” is Eucharisting in this regard-that they are giving thanksgiving to God for Christ and His new covenant thru the symbols of bread and wine. This is true no matter what you believe real presence is or isn’t …However , I know what you mean, that many believe the Body of Jesus (not the congregation which is also the Body of Christ) is made present in the symbols. This for sure many do not have/believe. But we all Eucharist -give thanks for Christ, the original meaning and intent.
Very well, I will give you some clarification.

While the term “Eucharist” means “thanksgiving” that is not all that it means. “Eucharist” primarily means the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. That is why we are giving thanks. To use the term outside of that common understanding clouds the issue a bit.

The Eucharist is certainly not a “symbol”. It is only in relatively recent history that it has ever been thought of as such. Christ is not made present in the symbols. When Christ is present the bread and wine cease to be bread and wine. His body is real food and his blood real drink. Just as Christ’s divinity was hidden in his humanity, so his body and blood are hidden under the appearance of bread and wine.

If you wish to say that all Christians give thanks to God and therefore participate in the Eucharist I can appreciate the sentiment but I think you go a bit too far.

Blessings.

Steve
 
Well some clarification is needed. Any service that has “communion” is Eucharisting in this regard-that they are giving thanksgiving to God for Christ and His new covenant thru the symbols of bread and wine. This is true no matter what you believe real presence is or isn’t …However , I know what you mean, that many believe the Body of Jesus (not the congregation which is also the Body of Christ) is made present in the symbols. This for sure many do not have/believe. But we all Eucharist -give thanks for Christ, the original meaning and intent.
Can I have a source on the bold? I am fairly certain that I can find some very, very, very early Christians who would testify that the original intent of the Eucharist was larger then just giving thanks but a participation in the body and blood of Christ.
 
Can I have a source on the bold? I am fairly certain that I can find some very, very, very early Christians who would testify that the original intent of the Eucharist was larger then just giving thanks but a participation in the body and blood of Christ.
This. Find me a Christian before 500AD who denied the Real Presence and was taken seriously by anyone else.
“Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.”
-St. Ignatius of Antioch, circa 80-100AD​
 
In a Protestant Church one attends a service. In the Catholic Church one attends the Holy Mass. There is nothing wrong, for the most part, with what happens at a Protestant service. It is not what they have, it is what they don’t have.

This has nothing to do with sincerity or desire to serve God or degree of love for God that one may have. If you don’t have the Eucharist you don’t have the Eucharist, plain and simple. And that makes all the difference.

We must also acknowledge that there are Protestant denominations, principally Anglican and Lutheran, who also believe in and celebrate the Eucharist. While the validity of these celebrations may be questionable to some, the fact remains that the Eucharist is the principal reason for their gathering.
Thank you for acknowledging our beliefs, Steve. :tiphat: Even though the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t hold our Eucharist to be entirely “valid” (at least, not in the same way that a Roman or Orthodox Eucharist would be), we Lutherans certainly believe it is truly Christ’s Body and Blood. It’s nice to know that even though Christians can disagree, we are still capable of listening to each other.
 
Originally Posted by dronald View Post
Does it not make you nervous as Catholics that God will judge you more harshly if you’re so quick to look at Protestants with your nose in the air based on what you think they feel and want?

Dronald, first of all your on a Catholic Forum, you might look at people with your nose in the air but we don’t its not a thing that Catholics do, what is your problem, can you not answer in an equal charitable manner. ?
 
This. Find me a Christian before 500AD who denied the Real Presence and was taken seriously by anyone else.
I stand corrected. (Quite charitably, actually) There were a few oddball heresies that did, along with denying things like the Trinity. I have to say I draw my line on your Christianity on believing Jesus is God, so I would not call the Gnostic’s Christians but Pseudo-Christians.

Thank you.
 
“a few oddball heresies”
Can I just say that this sounds like a great name for a radio show? Maybe EWTN should pick it up. 👍

hockeyfan, I’m agreeing that with you that there were “oddballs,” but as I said, no real traction in the “Communion-as-symbol-only” until…Calvin? It was only with the Reformation that symbol-only became a widely recognized point of contention. The vast, overwhelming majority of Christians took the Real Presence dead seriously (St. Iggy, for example) - I can’t find any early Church writings from these oddballs, which would suggest they didn’t get much traction. -shrug-
 
Very well, I will give you some clarification.

While the term “Eucharist” means “thanksgiving” that is not all that it means. “Eucharist” primarily means the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. That is why we are giving thanks. To use the term outside of that common understanding clouds the issue a bit.

The Eucharist is certainly not a “symbol”. It is only in relatively recent history that it has ever been thought of as such. Christ is not made present in the symbols. When Christ is present the bread and wine cease to be bread and wine. His body is real food and his blood real drink. Just as Christ’s divinity was hidden in his humanity, so his body and blood are hidden under the appearance of bread and wine.

If you wish to say that all Christians give thanks to God and therefore participate in the Eucharist I can appreciate the sentiment but I think you go a bit too far.

Blessings.

Steve
well that is the debate as to just what real presence is. Your “common understanding” has a history, as does mine. It is your belief that it is actual body from the beginning, even to the Last Supper. Mine is not. So to say the term Eucharist began meaning the body from the very beginning is dubious. It is like the word catholic began as an adjective to church then became a proper noun name as in capital C…the exact definition of transubstantiation certainly is not from the beginning either.
 
Can I have a source on the bold? I am fairly certain that I can find some very, very, very early Christians who would testify that the original intent of the Eucharist was larger then just giving thanks but a participation in the body and blood of Christ.
Perhaps. I thought the term at first was generic to communion with any real specific definition to just what real presence was meant. That is quite a few definitions could apply and most people assume it is theirs. Not totally sure. I mean you see the word “thanksgiving” and the “elements” in communion together a lot, so it is not surprising that thanksgiving became synonomous with communion.
 
In matters of God, the fact is that we are unable to bring anything that God has not already given us. So, yes we are takers - we take from God, so we can then give to others. We receive firstly, which enables us then to transfer this on to others. Christ’s sacrifice in the mass was His offering to His Father in order to give to us: “I give to you, so you can give to others too” (Jesus).

The simple fact is that of ourselves we can do very little and require God to give to us and enable us with His Grace. To think otherwise is not humble.
 
Just Cat’s opinion–

I’m sure that there are some truly good Catholics who are at a place in their lives where the externals in Mass truly do mean nothing.

But I believe that most Catholics are kidding themselves when they insist that they are at Mass solely to be present at Christ’s Sacrifice and receive Him in Holy Communion.

God created us as physical beings, and therefore we crave beauty that we can perceive through our senses. There is nothing wrong or “lacking” about that. To say otherwise is to fall into the heresy that some Protestants hold (my childhood church taught it) that the “physical” is not important, only the spiritual is of eternal significance. That is wrong.

Yes, we don’t require beauty to survive. Saint Maximillian Kolbe certainly didn’t say Mass in a beautiful setting.

But we still crave beauty.

There’s nothing wrong or sinful or lacking about craving a beautiful Mass. We are not worldly or “seeking entertainment” because we like being in a lovely building, hearing inspiring music and a well-delivered homily over an up-to-date sound system, seeing the enraptured faces of people that we know and love all around us, experiencing a heartfelt and emotional time of responding in hymns and spoken responses, praying fervent prayers that lift us up in our spirits and give us courage and strength to go back into our daily lives, and being thrilled in our hearts when the priest lifts the Lord up in the Word and the Eucharist.

If Catholics continue to argue that the “experience” of Mass is un-important, it ccould lead to a Mass expunged of all physical beauty as the parish attempts to eliminate any appearance of an “entertainment” or an “experience.”

e.g., music that is exciting, complex, and done well by competent musicians could be condemned as “entertainment performed by divas.” A priest who delivers a thought-provoking and challenging harmony could be accused of trying to turn the Mass into a teaching seminar.

This would be a sad situation, but after reading through this thread, I get the feeling from several of you that Mass should be devoid of anything resembling an attempt to give the people an “experience.” Take a look at what you are saying here. Be realistic, not esoteric.

If anything, I think that our Catholic parishes should do as much as they have the power to do (money, talent, volunteer base, etc.) to make it easier for the congregation to recognize what is actually happening (heaven coming to earth, a re-presentation of the Sacrifice at Calvary, etc.).

And in turn, the congregation should gratefully accept each Mass as it is offered, assuming that the priest IS doing everything he can to make the Mass glorious. We should not condemn music, a homily, architecture, etc. if it is simpler, more humble, less polished, etc. We need to keep learning how to see past the externals. But we also need to recognize and accept our human need to experience externals.
 
In matters of God, the fact is that we are unable to bring anything that God has not already given us. So, yes we are takers - we take from God, so we can then give to others. We receive firstly, which enables us then to transfer this on to others. Christ’s sacrifice in the mass was His offering to His Father in order to give to us: “I give to you, so you can give to others too” (Jesus).

The simple fact is that of ourselves we can do very little and require God to give to us and enable us with His Grace. To think otherwise is not humble.
Right on. Very good and early writings attest to this “thanksgiving” even, love feast. These are our acceptable sacrifices - thanksgiving prayers…what later developed however is a prayer that God would hopefully accept from the priest the sacrifice of our Lord re-presented…Do you see the subtle but huge difference ? That as you properly state, He has given us everything so why do we pray that it is acceptable when we offer it back to Him ? it is like I give you a gift and in remembrance you keep giving it back to me hoping I will like it ? The early church just rightly took the gift of grace and just said, “thank you, thank you ( Eucharist, Eucharist)”.
 
This. Find me a Christian before 500AD who denied the Real Presence and was taken seriously by anyone else.
Clement of Alexandria called em symbols and not more…it is wrong to apply to the early church later definitions. it is just not transubstantiation that fits Ignatius real presence,though I will admit it seems more than just symbolic. I would not peg him into our RP debate for that was not his primary context. He was dealing with docetists, people who did not believe Jesus died in the flesh. Docetists therefore even denied the symbolism of His real body and blood in the bread and wine.
 
What is the Eucharist?

I was born and raised Baptist (Lord’s Supper - symbolic)

Later in life I joined the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (Holy Communion - Consubstantiation)

My wife is a cradle Catholic (Eucharist - Transubstantiation)

What do I believe the Eucharist to be?

Won’t say.

What I will say, and this is just my opinion, is that I believe God gives us a certain degree of liberty in what we believe the Eucharist to be. Call me a heretic I reckon.

Ed
 
well that is the debate as to just what real presence is. Your “common understanding” has a history, as does mine. It is your belief that it is actual body from the beginning, even to the Last Supper. Mine is not. So to say the term Eucharist began meaning the body from the very beginning is dubious. It is like the word catholic began as an adjective to church then became a proper noun name as in capital C…the exact definition of transubstantiation certainly is not from the beginning either.
Neither is the Trinity, nor concepts such as hypostasis, but that doesn’t mean that because it was not officially defined until some point in time that it was not believed well before that point in time. The point is that you will not find any of the early Christians referring to the Eucharist as a symbol, from the first century forward. The Eucharist as a symbol began with the so-called “reformation”.
 
What is the Eucharist?
The body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. Not a symbol, but the real thing. His body is real food and his blood is real drink.
What I will say, and this is just my opinion, is that I believe God gives us a certain degree of liberty in what we believe the Eucharist to be. Call me a heretic I reckon.

Ed
Ed, the Catholic Church refers to the Eucharist as the source and summit of our faith. This is because the Church has always believed that Christ was truly present under the appearance of bread and wine. You can verify this through the writings of the early Church Fathers. That should give you something to ponder.

I find your comment regarding degrees of liberty in what we believe the Eucharist to be to be a little disturbing, however. There is such a thing as objective truth, which exists whether anyone knows about it or even believes it. Truth is truth. An example would be someone who sincerely believes that they can fly off of a twenty story building. Regardless of the sincerity of that belief, the object truth of gravity will win every time.

I think God cares very much what we believe about the Eucharist, just as he cares that we understand gravity. This is why the Church, in the face of many challenges by the “Reformers”, officially and authoritatively defined the doctrine of Transubstantiation, so that we would know the truth. What we believe matters.

God bless.

Steve
 
Neither is the Trinity, nor concepts such as hypostasis, but that doesn’t mean that because it was not officially defined until some point in time that it was not believed well before that point in time. The point is that you will not find any of the early Christians referring to the Eucharist as a symbol, from the first century forward. The Eucharist as a symbol began with the so-called “reformation”.
Not true.Clement of alexandria…but i understand that though not defined ,may still be, like the trinity .as long as you understand other things came to be defined but are or were not.
 
Not true.Clement of alexandria…but i understand that though not defined ,may still be, like the trinity .as long as you understand other things came to be defined but are or were not.
Clement of Alexandria, while considered a Church Father, had many strange beliefs which were dismissed by the Church. He was removed from the list of saints by both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches because of his beliefs. The point is that his view was in contradiction to the view of the Church and is an exception, therefore not a good example.
 
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