"It's not biblical"

[charlye]

“Cherry Picking”?

How about building a false salvation theology around this verse;

That is cherry picking.

Do you really want to talk about building a false salvation theology? Finish up that particular scripture … verse 9 … “not by works so that no one can boast”. Of course you left that off because works are part and parcel of the salvific plan of the RCC.

 

[foundthelight]

Do you really want to talk about building a false salvation theology? Finish up that particular scripture … verse 9 … “not by works so that no one can boast”. Of course you left that off because works are part and parcel of the salvific plan of the RCC.

Hm. I think I touched a nerve. We have answered you. You refuse to accept that answer. Where does that leave us?

 

[foundthelight]

Do you really want to talk about building a false salvation theology? Finish up that particular scripture … verse 9 … “not by works so that no one can boast”. Of course you left that off because works are part and parcel of the salvific plan of the RCC.

We believe that faith and works, as commanded by Christ, are needed. It was some person named Luther that added “alone” to the above.

 

[M0nkey]

If you read Rev 12 carefully, and in context, you will see that this woman represents Israel, who gave Christ to the world and who will be persecuted severely during the Tribulation.

No, that woman is Mary. Even Protestants who know how to read the scriptures will tell you that. (The first time I was exposed to Rev. 12 I heard it from a Protestant.)

BTW, in your sig… You should really read it like this: " I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you **may **know that you have eternal life" (1 Jn 5:13) You don’t want to fall in the sin of presumption. Only God knows who gets saved or not.

 

[charlye]

No, that woman is Mary. Even Protestants who know how to read the scriptures will tell you that. (The first time I was exposed to Rev. 12 I heard it from a Protestant.)

BTW, in your sig… You should really read it like this: " I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you **may **know that you have eternal life" (1 Jn 5:13) You don’t want to fall in the sin of presumption. Only God knows who gets saved or not.

If this is indeed Mary, explain for me, if you can, how this relates to verse 6 … “the woman (supposedly Mary?) fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days”. Or, for that matter, verse 14. What’s that all about? I’m most curious as to how you would answer that.

The one thing I know for certain in this life is that I do have eternal life because of my faith in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. That’s not presumption, it’s a biblical fact.

 

[Newbie2]

That was all I asked for … when may I expect such scriptural proof?

There’s no proof that will satisfy you, so the answer is, “Never”.

Anything we give you will get labeled “Cherry picking”:

Thank you for your reply. I’ve heard this from other RC’s. And I will ask you the same question I’ve asked them … if this is indeed Mary, explain for me, if you can, how this relates to verse 6 … “the woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days”. Or, for that matter, verse 14. No RC would give me an answer.

If you read Rev 12 carefully, and in context, you will see that this woman represents Israel, who gave Christ to the world and who will be persecuted severely during the Tribulation.

Cherry picking verses from scripture to fit an agenda is like putting a band aid on cancer … it doesn’t work.

See?

“It’s not biblical” most of the time means “It’s not explicitly in the Bible”. Even though it may be implied in the Bible, or based on something in the Bible, or Not be specifically forbidden by the Bible.
“It’s not biblical” is almost like a “fill in the blank question”

Well said, Bro.

 

[Mea_Culpa]

Now that’s really funny … since the RCC is the self-imposed “authority” on what God would and wouldn’t have done or said!

The Catholic Church is not a self-imposed authority. The authority of the Church comes from Jesus Christ Himself. “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven” (Matthew 16:18-19)

Christ gave Peter, first among the Apostles and the first Bishop of Rome, the keys to the kingdom of heaven and the authority to bind and loose. So, the Church’s authority is far from “self-imposed.” It is from Jesus Christ Himself.

All that we know of God is spelled out in scripture and all that God wants us to know as pertains to our salvation is contained within the pages of scripture.

If this were true, since the doctrine of sola scriptura is not in scripture, it must not pertain to our salvation. (This is true, it is a false, heretical doctrine designed to weaken the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church).

More importantly, all we know of God is not spelled out in scripture. God sent His only son to us in the flesh that me may know Him. “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us: and we saw his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14) (Mary is also described as “full of grace” - interesting)

Jesus is the living Word of God. And everything he did and taught is not recorded in the Bible. “But there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to conatin the books that should be written.” (John 21:25)

So are the things Jesus did and taught lost to us? No. Jesus said, “But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.” (John 14:24) The Holy Spirit will bring to remembrance the things that Jesus said and did that are not recorded in the Gospels. Jesus tells his disciples gathered in the upper room, “I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth: for he shall not speak of himself, but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak: and the things that are to come, he will show you. He shall glorify me: because he shall receive of mine, and will declare it to you.” (John 16:12-14)

The Holy Spirit will come to the Apostles, and their successors the Bishops of the Church, and teach them all truth. This is what Jesus promised. He did not say that all truth will be revealed in the Bible. He promised that he would lead the Church into all truth and bring to remembrance all that He taught and did. Jesus, the Son of God, is the revealed Word of God and He contains all that is necessary for our salvation. Jesus didn’t write a book - he founded a Church, the Catholic Church, and promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide that Church into all truth.

Mary’s assumption and her immaculate conception is not God’s inspired word and only serves to place Mary on level she neither deserves nor wants.

When the Angel Gabriel addresses Mary, he says to her, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: Blessed art thou among women.” (Luke 1:28)

Mary’s Immaculate Conception can be inferred from these words. She is “full of grace.” There is no room for sin with her. Also, the Church, led into all truth under the influence of the Holy Spirit as promised by Jesus Christ, has infallibly declared that Mary was immaculately conceived and that she was assumed bodily into heaven.

Catholics have not been misled by the man-made, false doctrine of sola scriptura, so we are not under the illusion that all truth is contained in the Bible. We believe in the promises of Jesus Christ, that he will send the Holy Spirit to guide the Church into all truth and bring to remembrance all that he taught and did. So for Catholics, Mary’s bodily assumption into Heaven doesn’t have to be spelled out explicitly in the Bible for it to be true (it can certainly be inferred from what is in the Bible, and it doesn’t contradict anything in the Bible). It is one of the truths that the Holy Spirit has led the Church to and brought to remembrance.

 

[M0nkey]

If this is indeed Mary, explain for me, if you can, how this relates to verse 6 … “the woman (supposedly Mary?) fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days”. Or, for that matter, verse 14. What’s that all about? I’m most curious as to how you would answer that.

Brother charlye,

Please read verse five: “She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.” That woman who gave birth to child is none other than Mary.

The one thing I know for certain in this life is that I do have eternal life because of my faith in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. That’s not presumption, it’s a biblical fact.

Are you so certain? Brother, remember the man who came to Jesus: “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” - Mark 10: 17. Jesus’ response was: “For human beings it is impossible, but not for God. All things are possible for God.” - Mark 10: 27. I beseech you brother, *trust * in God that he may grant you eternal life, not in some preconceived notion in your mind or intellect. May the Lord be with you.

 

[charlye]

Brother charlye,

Please read verse five: “She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.” That woman who gave birth to child is none other than Mary.

What of the woman in verse 6, or in verse 14? I asked this previously but as yet have not had an explanation. You can’t proclaim this woman to be Mary in verse 5 and then discount the events taking place in other verses, speaking about the same “woman”.

p.s. I am not “brother” Charlye

 

[charlye]

Are you so certain? Brother, remember the man who came to Jesus: “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” - Mark 10: 17. Jesus’ response was: “For human beings it is impossible, but not for God. All things are possible for God.” - Mark 10: 27. I beseech you brother, *trust * in God that he may grant you eternal life, not in some preconceived notion in your mind or intellect. May the Lord be with you.

Monkey, it is the only thing I am sure of in this life!

I have heard the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ and having believed I am marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Sprit, who is a deposit guaranteeing my inheritance … Eph 1:13-14.

It is not a future event, it occurs at the time that I, through faith by the grace of God, believed the gospel and trusted only in Jesus Christ for my eternal salvation … that He died for me and paid the penalty for every sin I committed or would commit and any residual effects/punishments attached thereto.

Why is it so hard to believe?

 

[twb1621]

From Scripture Catholic;

Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?

2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

2 Cor. 12:2 - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.

1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the “woman,” clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary’s bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary’s bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.

 

[e61iuser]

Too bad that not all those who believe in Him will be saved. The whole of Matthew 7 and 25 attests to this.

Even those who said Lord, Lord, prophesied in His name and cast out devils in His name were turned away.

The ultimate proof of just because you believe, you are not saved? Judas. He believed, and was even an Apostle. Can’t get much more of a believer than that.

 

[twb1621]

Monkey, it is the only thing I am sure of in this life!

I have heard the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ and having believed I am marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Sprit, who is a deposit guaranteeing my inheritance … Eph 1:13-14.

It is not a future event, it occurs at the time that I, through faith by the grace of God, believed the gospel and trusted only in Jesus Christ for my eternal salvation … that He died for me and paid the penalty for every sin I committed or would commit and any residual effects/punishments attached thereto.
What sins you “will” commit in the future you can not see or know what will generate your choice to commit. This (forgiveness for future sins) is conditional upon your reconciling and sincerity of heart for those future sins at the time you leave this life. Only God can know what is in the future so although you may not intend it this way, it is arrogant to take for granted that you are already forgiven for future sins when you do not know what sins you may commit of why you chose them.
Why is it so hard to believe?

 

[charlye]

Too bad that not all those who believe in Him will be saved. The whole of Matthew 7 and 25 attests to this.

Even those who said Lord, Lord, prophesied in His name and cast out devils in His name were turned away.

The ultimate proof of just because you believe, you are not saved? Judas. He believed, and was even an Apostle. Can’t get much more of a believer than that.

Judas may have been an apostle, but he was not a believer. If he was he never would have handed Jesus over to the Romans.

 

[charlye]

From Scripture Catholic;

Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?

2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

2 Cor. 12:2 - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.

1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the “woman,” clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary’s bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary’s bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.

Just what is your point? All you’ve done is speculate on what God could have done … nothing biblical points to God assuming Mary into heaven.

Again, I must point out that your unwritten sacred tradition, upon which you place so much trust, is not the inspired word of God. None of the apostles taught that Mary was assumed, as a matter of fact, they never really had much to say about her at all.

 

[twb1621]

Just what is your point? All you’ve done is speculate on what God could have done … nothing biblical points to God assuming Mary into heaven.

Again, I must point out that your unwritten sacred tradition, upon which you place so much trust, is not the inspired word of God. None of the apostles taught that Mary was assumed, as a matter of fact, they never really had much to say about her at all.

Patience. basic question… do you believe in the Gospels?

 

[charlye]

Patience. basic question… do you believe in the Gospels?

It’s not the Gospel**s **… it’s the gospel of Jesus Christ. It’s the good news that we have a savior who died for us so that, believing in Him, we may have life eternal.

 

[onenow1]

Just what is your point? All you’ve done is speculate on what God could have done … nothing biblical points to God assuming Mary into heaven. .

Quote= onenow1, charlye I think you are being rather presumptious,assumingMary died during the writng of the gospels or for that matter the epistles ?

Now I am GOING TO PESUME], THAT John being the youngest of the 12 had probably heard of Mary’s death or indeed was present. This makes me believe the Rev 12:1 indeed is a presentation of Mary as his prophecy pictured her, as the Queen Mother.

That’s why the CC is the pillar and fondation of truth.

Peace, onenow1

 

[e61iuser]

Judas may have been an apostle, but he was not a believer. If he was he never would have handed Jesus over to the Romans.

Is that your argument? That Judas is an Apostle but not a believer?

That’s like saying one can be a United States President without being a US citizen. Your logic truly boggles me.

 

[twb1621]

It’s not the Gospel**s **… it’s the gospel of Jesus Christ. It’s the good news that we have a savior who died for us so that, believing in Him, we may have life eternal.

sorry, I am from Philly and sometimes relate in that way, I stand corrected… Gospel. The word of Jesus Christ. Now can you answer yes, you do believe in the writings of the Gospel and there origin?

(Answer these questions thoughtfully.)
If so, (and I believe you do believe) do you realize the writings of the Gospel were excerpts from the sacred tradition and teachings taught by the apostles as they in turn were taught by Jesus? I would hope Common sense dictates this understanding considering many many years passed before the words of the Gospel were written.

And if so, do you accept the teaching of the Gospel that it does not contain anywhere near a sufficient record of the teachings or activities of Jesus and that Sacred Tradition MUST be continued through succession in addition to the Gospel? (The Gospel declares this)

Now claiming full belief in the Gospel as the Word of Jesus, you must accept this directive also but where would you be able to find the teaching of this sacred tradition and the apostolic succession to provide it? The Gospel says it must be done.
There is only one place that can possibly provide these three articles and without the three together, you are not getting the fullness of Christianity. Whether you accept it or not, whether you want to agree or not, you can not with good common sense justify accepting and believing in the Gospel but not the additional articles the Gospel itself tells us to follow.

Sacred Tradition backed by the OT and NT teach us of the Assumption of Mary, but you haven’t learned of that yet.