"It's not biblical"

[foundthelight]

It’s not the Gospel**s **… it’s the gospel of Jesus Christ. It’s the good news that we have a savior who died for us so that, believing in Him, we may have life eternal.

Yes, if we do as He says.

Jas 2:14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
Jas 2:15 And if a brother or sister be naked and want daily food:
Jas 2:16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?
Jas 2:17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
Jas 2:18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?

Did Jesus tell us to do good works?

Mat 25:41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink.
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me.
Mat 25:44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee?
Mat 25:45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Faith in Christ and good deeds go hand-in-hand. Claiming that only faith is necessary is a denial of Christ as much as saying that deeds by themselves are all that is necessary. Luther hated James’ letter because it simply reinforced the words of Christ.

You have refused to answer my earlier question as to where the Bible says that it is the Sole source, rather than just “profitable” as Paul said. I take your avoidance of this question as a tacit admittance that you cannot.

Now, if you cannot defend Sola Scriptura, why do you ask us to defend the Assumption based on Sola Scriptura? A defense which, by the way, has been presented quite well. They are both Tradition. Sola Scriptura is a Tradition of the Reformation, the Assumption a Tradition of the Church. We have presented a defense of our position. Where is yours?

Your turn.

 

[tmac1956]

…snip p.s. I am not “brother” Charlye

Please be charitable charlye… I think he means brother(s) in Christ. You have no problem with that do you?
Thanks,
tmac1956

 

[tmac1956]

Too bad that not all those who believe in Him will be saved. The whole of Matthew 7 and 25 attests to this.

Even those who said Lord, Lord, prophesied in His name and cast out devils in His name were turned away.

The ultimate proof of just because you believe, you are not saved? Judas. He believed, and was even an Apostle. Can’t get much more of a believer than that.

Yes – and he even had a personal relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ (though I doubt he recited the sinners prayer); you can’t get more personal than that. Still he fell away.
Thanks,
tmac1956

 

[e61iuser]

Judas may have been an apostle, but he was not a believer. If he was he never would have handed Jesus over to the Romans.

Is that your argument? That Judas was an Apostle but not a believer?

That’s like saying one can be a United States President or a member of the US Congress without being a US citizen. Your logic truly boggles me.

 

[foundthelight]

Is that your argument? That Judas was an Apostle but not a believer?

That’s like saying one can be a United States President or a member of the US Congress without being a US citizen. Your logic truly boggles me.

Perhaps he is a Calvinist, as I used to be, and thinks that we are all puppets on a string with no free will.

 

[charlye]

Is that your argument? That Judas is an Apostle but not a believer?

That’s like saying one can be a United States President without being a US citizen. Your logic truly boggles me.

sigh You said … "Judas. He believed, and was even an Apostle. Can’t get much more of a believer than that".

I replied that your assumption that Judas was a believer was in error. He could not have been and still betrayed Jesus.

 

[PJM]

I find it interesting that we are able to impose our own blindness. Or is this simply an intellectual debate

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Sounds pertty clear cut right?

So does this: John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

And this: John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

And this: Mt. 19:16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?”
17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

The truth is that we must actually wish to know the truth inorder to hear the truth when it proclaimed to us:thumbsup:

God’s continued blessings be with you

Pat Miron
Marian Catecheist

 

[charlye]

Please be charitable charlye… I think he means brother(s) in Christ. You have no problem with that do you?
Thanks,
tmac1956

I was in no way being uncharitable, tmac. I even put a smilie face on it!

But as far as being brothers in Christ, yes, I do have a problem with that. I consider myself to be a christian. He is a Roman Catholic.

 

[foundthelight]

sigh You said … "Judas. He believed, and was even an Apostle. Can’t get much more of a believer than that".

I replied that your assumption that Judas was a believer was in error. He could not have been and still betrayed Jesus.

Sure he could. Satan led him away from Christ. In his free will he decided to reject Christ. Or, do you believe that he was a puppet on a string, unable to choose, predestined to damnation?

 

[twb1621]

I was in no way being uncharitable, tmac. I even put a smilie face on it!

But as far as being brothers in Christ, yes, I do have a problem with that. I consider myself to be a christian. He is a Roman Catholic.

Are you by this insinuating Catholics are not Christians?
I again present my previous response to you and ask your reply;
sorry, I am from Philly and sometimes relate in that way, I stand corrected… Gospel. The word of Jesus Christ. Now can you answer yes, you do believe in the writings of the Gospel and there origin?

(Answer these questions thoughtfully.)
If so, (and I believe you do believe) do you realize the writings of the Gospel were excerpts from the sacred tradition and teachings taught by the apostles as they in turn were taught by Jesus? I would hope Common sense dictates this understanding considering many many years passed before the words of the Gospel were written.

And if so, do you accept the teaching of the Gospel that it does not contain anywhere near a sufficient record of the teachings or activities of Jesus and that Sacred Tradition MUST be continued through succession in addition to the Gospel? (The Gospel declares this)

Now claiming full belief in the Gospel as the Word of Jesus, you must accept this directive also but where would you be able to find the teaching of this sacred tradition and the apostolic succession to provide it? The Gospel says it must be done.
There is only one place that can possibly provide these three articles and without the three together, you are not getting the fullness of Christianity. Whether you accept it or not, whether you want to agree or not, you can not with good common sense justify accepting and believing in the Gospel but not the additional articles the Gospel itself tells us to follow.

Sacred Tradition backed by the OT and NT teach us of the Assumption of Mary, but you haven’t learned of that yet.

 

[e61iuser]

sigh You said … "Judas. He believed, and was even an Apostle. Can’t get much more of a believer than that".

I replied that your assumption that Judas was a believer was in error. He could not have been and still betrayed Jesus.

So Judas never had a “personal relationship with Jesus”, even when he was one of Jesus’ 12 Chosen (a relationship so personal that Judas even had the secrets of the OT explained to him along with the others in the book of Mark) and was even a holder of the purse, one of the positions of power in any organization?

Wow. Jesus must have been utterly stupid to appoint such an unbeliever to such a position of great responsibility and utter closeness to Himself.

Either Jesus was stupid, or He couldn’t read minds and hearts, or… Judas was truly a believer at first and fell away, therefore losing his salvation. Which one is it?

 

[foundthelight]

I was in no way being uncharitable, tmac. I even put a smilie face on it!

But as far as being brothers in Christ, yes, I do have a problem with that. I consider myself to be a christian. He is a Roman Catholic.

It sounds as though you have judged us all as being non-Christian and thus damned. Interesting.

 

[e61iuser]

It sounds as though you have judged us all as being non-Christian and thus damned. Interesting.

I would agree. This is how it sounds to me too.

 

[charlye]

Sure he could. Satan led him away from Christ. In his free will he decided to reject Christ. Or, do you believe that he was a puppet on a string, unable to choose, predestined to damnation?

Satan can not touch those who belong to Christ!

 

[jb80]

sigh You said … "Judas. He believed, and was even an Apostle. Can’t get much more of a believer than that".

I replied that your assumption that Judas was a believer was in error. He could not have been and still betrayed Jesus.

On the contrary, I believe your assumption that a believer could not betray Jesus is in error.

Did Adam and Eve not believe before they fell?
Did Moses not believe before he struck the rock?
Did David not believe before he had Uriah killed?
Did Peter not believe when he denied knowing Jesus?
Did Thomas not believe before he doubted that Jesus had rose?

Believing does not make you live a perfect life, and I know you would agree since you said when you believe you are forgiven of all your future sins.

However it seems as if you’re claiming if Judas really believed, he wouldn’t be capable of doing this. I can find no example of this in Scripture and in fact I find the opposite.

James 2:19

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Matthew 7:21

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 10:22

All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

These verses seem to say that even after we believe that’s not the end of our Salvation. We have to do the will of the Father and we have to stand firm to the end. This would mean that Judas could believe at one point in time and then he didn’t “stand firm”.

Obviously you probably will have a different interpretation of these verses just as you had of Rev 12. But my question to you would be how do you know for sure that your interpretation is correct? How do you know that your interpretation is infallible?

Peter warns us that people can “ignorantly twist the Scriptures” (2 Pet 3:15). If people “ignorantly” do this, then that means it is not done on purpose. How do you know that Catholics are the one who do this?

God Bless you sister!!

 

[e61iuser]

Satan can not touch those who belong to Christ!

Judas belonged to Christ. He was even one of the 12 Chosen and hand-picked personally by Christ.

 

[charlye]

It sounds as though you have judged us all as being non-Christian and thus damned. Interesting.

A Christian is a Christ-follower … a Roman Catholic is a papist. I believe totally in the absoluteness of scripture … you believe in the “three legged stool” (scripture, tradition and the magisterium).

I’m in no way saying you are damned. You’re still breathing and there’s still time for you to yield to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

p.s. BTW, all the RC’s that I know (and this includes most of my family) when asked what religion they are will always say “Roman Catholic” … never RC Christian or Christian.

 

[charlye]

Judas belonged to Christ. He was even one of the 12 Chosen and hand-picked personally by Christ.

When Jesus chose the apostles don’t you think that he knew what Judas would do? He didn’t make Judas betray Him … if Judas truly believed in Jesus He would not have betrayed Him, and satan would never had gotten a foot hold on him.

 

[e61iuser]

When Jesus chose the apostles don’t you think that he knew what Judas would do? He didn’t make Judas betray Him … if Judas truly believed in Jesus He would not have betrayed Him, and satan would never had gotten a foot hold on him.

That has nothing to do with Judas having faith in Jesus. Judas would never have willingly followed Jesus around if he didn’t BELIEVE that Jesus was the Messiah. Your argument is flawed my friend, and you have become uncharitable and insulting by calling us papists.

It is customary when visiting another’s home to be respectful of the owner of that house.

 

[twb1621]

When Jesus chose the apostles don’t you think that he knew what Judas would do? He didn’t make Judas betray Him … if Judas truly believed in Jesus He would not have betrayed Him, and satan would never had gotten a foot hold on him.

Why do you avoid answering my questions in post #70 if you are a firm believer in the Gospel?