It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

[jlhargus]

Can you show me where in the Bible it calls tradition God breathed?

I can show scripture where DIVINE ORAL TRADITION, was directly hand delivered by God, thru our Lord and God Jesus Christ himself. He personally taught that DIVINE ORAL TRADITION to the apostles and SENT them to TEACH that ORAL TRADITION to the whole world. So there was no need to breath those Divine Traditions, Jesus hand delivered them directly to the apostles. It was only nescessary after he ascended to breath those Written Traditions to clarify some of those Oral Traditions.

Christ’s teachings to the apostles were all Oral Tradition and Traditioned by Christ to his apostles. [1Thes2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye RECEIVED the WORD OF GOD which ye HEARD of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is IN TRUTH, the WORD OF GOD, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.]

Christ wrote nothing and the apostles wrote only to already established churches who had received, and was already living that Oral Word of God, taught them from the Apostolic Oral Tradition. Some of the Oral Word of God was latter written down and gathered into a canon of books in 382 A.D… The epistles were written for the most part to clarify or solve problems in the community.

2Tim1:13 HOLD FAST the form of SOUND WORDS, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 THAT GOOD THING which was COMMITTED unto thee **KEEP BY THE HOLY GHOST **which dwelleth IN US.

Additionally, if tradition is God breathed then why can it chan, err I mean evolve?

JL: Divine Traditions whether WORD or EPISTLE cannot be changed, err or contradict each other, they must always agree. Better understanding of oral or written Traditions can and does evolve, such as which books belong to the canon of the BIBLE took almost four hundred years to evolve. Also the understanding of the Trinity evolved.

2Tim1:13 HOLD FAST the form of SOUND WORDS, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 THAT GOOD THING which was COMMITTED unto thee **KEEP BY THE HOLY GHOST **which dwelleth IN US.

2Tim2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And THE THINGS that THOU HAST HEARD OF ME among many witnesses, THE SAME COMMIT thou TO FAITHFUL MEN, who shall be ABLE TO TEACH OTHERS also.

1Tim6:20 Timothy, KEEP THAT WHICH IS COMMITTED TO THY TRUST, avoiding profane and vain babblings,

Philip4:9 THOSE THINGS, which YE HAVE both LEARNED, and RECEIVED, and HEARD, and SEEN IN ME, DO: and the God of peace shall be with you.]

There are many good scripture examples of tradition, the burden of proof is on you, you must SHOW SOLA SCRIPTURA, which is a tradition of men, made a doctrine of God around 1520, [Jer 23:36 36 But you must not mention the oracle of the LORD again, because EVERY MAN’S OWN WORD BECOMES HIS ORACLE and so you distort the words of the living God,…] Or you must show scripture saying all oral tradition has now been included in the written tradition=scripture, which you cannot do. Paul says in 2 Thes, OUR GOSPEL, brethren, WHETHER word=oral OR epistle=written.

Jn14: 26: But the Comforter, which is THE HOLY GHOST, whom the Father will send in my name, he SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and BRING all things TO your REMEMBRANCE, WHATSOEVER I have SAID UNTO YOU.

The Church, the pillar and ground of truth, 1Tm3:15, which Christ pormised to be with till the end and guide into ALL TRUTH is guided by that same Holy Spirit who breathed the Scriptures.

 

[clmowry]

I remember many years ago when I was a Baptist I got into a discussion with a fundamentalist preacher on the subject of inter-racial dating/marriage. He of course was dead set against it and provided a few scripture verses to ‘prove’ it. I pointed out the verses were taken out of context and showed him why. I continued to insist that he find anywhere in the Bible that spoke against inter-racial relationships. He became rather frustrated and said:
“Does everything have to be in Bible for it to be true”?
Eye opening statement.

LOL.

That’s just funny.

Chuck

 

[clmowry]

I can show scripture where DIVINE ORAL TRADITION, was directly hand delivered by God, thru our Lord and God Jesus Christ himself. He personally taught that DIVINE ORAL TRADITION to the apostles and SENT them to TEACH that ORAL TRADITION to the whole world. So there was no need to breath those Divine Traditions, Jesus hand delivered them directly to the apostles. It was only nescessary after he ascended to breath those Written Traditions to clarify some of those Oral Traditions.

Christ’s teachings to the apostles were all Oral Tradition and Traditioned by Christ to his apostles. [1Thes2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye RECEIVED the WORD OF GOD which ye HEARD of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is IN TRUTH, the WORD OF GOD, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.]

Christ wrote nothing and the apostles wrote only to already established churches who had received, and was already living that Oral Word of God, taught them from the Apostolic Oral Tradition. Some of the Oral Word of God was latter written down and gathered into a canon of books in 382 A.D… The epistles were written for the most part to clarify or solve problems in the community.

2Tim1:13 HOLD FAST the form of SOUND WORDS, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 THAT GOOD THING which was COMMITTED unto thee **KEEP BY THE HOLY GHOST **which dwelleth IN US.

JL: Divine Traditions whether WORD or EPISTLE cannot be changed, err or contradict each other, they must always agree. Better understanding of oral or written Traditions can and does evolve, such as which books belong to the canon of the BIBLE took almost four hundred years to evolve. Also the understanding of the Trinity evolved.

2Tim1:13 HOLD FAST the form of SOUND WORDS, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 THAT GOOD THING which was COMMITTED unto thee **KEEP BY THE HOLY GHOST **which dwelleth IN US.

2Tim2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And THE THINGS that THOU HAST HEARD OF ME among many witnesses, THE SAME COMMIT thou TO FAITHFUL MEN, who shall be ABLE TO TEACH OTHERS also.

1Tim6:20 Timothy, KEEP THAT WHICH IS COMMITTED TO THY TRUST, avoiding profane and vain babblings,

Philip4:9 THOSE THINGS, which YE HAVE both LEARNED, and RECEIVED, and HEARD, and SEEN IN ME, DO: and the God of peace shall be with you.]

There are many good scripture examples of tradition, the burden of proof is on you, you must SHOW SOLA SCRIPTURA, which is a tradition of men, made a doctrine of God around 1520, [Jer 23:36 36 But you must not mention the oracle of the LORD again, because EVERY MAN’S OWN WORD BECOMES HIS ORACLE and so you distort the words of the living God,…] Or you must show scripture saying all oral tradition has now been included in the written tradition=scripture, which you cannot do. Paul says in 2 Thes, OUR GOSPEL, brethren, WHETHER word=oral OR epistle=written.

Jn14: 26: But the Comforter, which is THE HOLY GHOST, whom the Father will send in my name, he SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and BRING all things TO your REMEMBRANCE, WHATSOEVER I have SAID UNTO YOU.

The Church, the pillar and ground of truth, 1Tm3:15, which Christ pormised to be with till the end and guide into ALL TRUTH is guided by that same Holy Spirit who breathed the Scriptures.

See. Now we are on to a different subject.

“Chuckism” at work. (Is it sinful to crack myself up. Hehe.)

Chuck

 

[jlhargus]

See. Now we are on to a different subject.

“Chuckism” at work. (Is it sinful to crack myself up. Hehe.)

Chuck

JL: It always takes me awhile to catch up. I got a chuckle out of Chuckism.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Doesn’t the Bible tell us to evangalize?

Sure. The list was weak. Try this:

Traditions Protestants Can Accept

Are there extra-biblical Church traditions that Protestants will accept? Can even one be found?

In order to determine this fairly, we must evaluate each doctrine that is proposed as a candidate according to several criteria:

a) The doctrine in question is accepted by the Protestants to whom one is speaking
b) The doctrine is not stated in Scripture
c) The doctrine is not implied by Scripture
d) The doctrine has an extrabiblical history to which one can appeal as an alternative, extrascriptural basis

The following doctrines are proposed as those which meet all of the criteria above and are agreed to be binding upon the consciences of all believers:

1. The canon of the New Testament
2. Public revelation has ended
3. There are to be no more Apostles

If any one of these three doctrines meet the criteria above, then it has been proven that Protestants have accepted teaching that has come by a source other the Bible Alone; thus, sola scriptura is false.

Condensed from:

Doctrines Known by Tradition
By James Akin
jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/10/doctrines_known.html

 

[Randy_Carson]

I would much appreciate it if someone one, (especially you who are n-Cs) would display and clarify for me just precisely where it is in the Word of God that it specifically states that everything that Christians believe and practice must be found within its pages.

This also is for some of you Catholics that come in here and all but demand to know where some Catholic teaching or practice is found in the Bible.

The reason I am posting this is because I have read the Bible (all 73 books of it!) many times and have yet to find anything that supports this idea. I have concluded that the Catholic Church is correct in teaching that the Bible does not say this and therefore it is error.

I want all of us Catholics to understand that this is a fundamental doctrinal error of some communities of n-C Christianity and so there is no reason to get distressed when someone comes at you with this stuff, because the fact of the matter is …it’s NOT in the Bible itself.

Well said, CM.

I like this:

Answering the Question, “Where is that in the Bible?”

The Evangelical starts with the assumption that scripture existed first and that tradition was slowly and incrementally added to it as time progressed. However, the original deposit of faith was given to the Apostles years before New Testament Scripture was ever penned. The Church was founded on this truth from Christ. Some of this deposit was then written in Scripture, some was scrupulously passed from bishop to bishop as oral tradition, and some was later clarified as dogma by the agreement of the bishops in the councils of the Church.

These sources, of course, should be expected not to contradict each other. If the Church teaches something as true, it is justifiable to check that it is not contradicted by Scripture. But if the Church teaches something and the Bible is silent or ambiguous, that does not mean the teaching is any less truly a part of the original deposit of faith given the Apostles. The focus must shift from what is biblical to what is true. The first is always contained in the second, but all of the second is not necessarily contained in the first.

When an Evangelical asks, “Where is that doctrine in the Bible?”, the correct response is “First show me from Scripture why you believe all Christian doctrines must be in the Bible.” It can be frustrating for Evangelicals to confront this issue, but it is important for them to understand the lack of biblical basis for their question. Truth is at issue here.

Adapted from Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic by David B. Currie, pp.61-62.

 

[Awful_Things]

Doesn’t the Bible say that ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ

No, it doesn’t. St. Jerome supposedly said that.

 

[Drawmack]

So then, in light of your reference to the CCC you would acknowledge that our understanding of the New Testament of Sacred Scripture as being the 27 acknowledged books are a part of this “God breathed” Tradition. And you would also acknowledge that our understanding ot the Trinity is also a God breathed Tradition since the term Trinity and many of our understandings are not directly found in Scripture.

Can we start there?

Nope! We can start with my original question or you can find someone else to play semantic games with.

 

[Drawmack]

You missed the point.
Didn’t say any of those things were bad, just said they were part of Protestant ‘tradition’ that has no Biblical basis.

And, I pointed out that they do have a Biblical basis.

 

[Drawmack]

How does Saint Paul’s comment in 2 Thess. 2:15 parallel itself to paragraph 81 in the CCC? And if it doesn’t, why not?

Has the practice of the Sacred Traditions known as the Sacraments changed? If so then those Traditions have not been stood firm in.

 

[Drawmack]

– Mark L. Chance.

The claim that Jesus instituted them is a historic claim. The Magisterium does not claim infallibility in matters of history. Therefore, prove that this historical claim is true!

 

[bookgirl32]

Can you show me where in the Bible it calls tradition God breathed?

That’s the whole point of this thread. It doesn’t have to be in the Bible. Tradition and Scripture cannot, however, be contradictory. So I don’t have to tell you where the Bible says it is God breathed, but you do have to tell me where the Bible says that it is not. (And I mean tradition with a capital T, not “traditions of men”).

 

[Awful_Things]

Can you show me where in the Bible it calls tradition God breathed? Additionally, if tradition is God breathed then why can it chan, err I mean evolve?

No problem. As “God-breathed” or “inspired by God” refers to the guidance of the breath of God, which is a synonym for the Holy Spirit, some passages would be 1 Peter 1:12, which describes the oral teachings (i.e. “preaching”) of the apostles as :

“It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.”

I think this is fair enough. After all, the passage to which you refer, 2 Tim. 3:16 was (according to verse 15) refering to the Scriptures that the readers knew “from childhood”, yet by the addition of 27 more books that weren’t known “from childhood”, the Scriptures (as you sarcastically put it in the quoted portion) “chan, err I mean evolved”.

Feel free to ask if these same oral teachings are the ones that were then passed on as Tradition through the Church, and I’ll provide support for that while you, at the same time, support (without falling upon the authority of tradition or the infallible authority of the Church) the inspiration of the book of Hebrews as well as others.

 

[Pax]

I look at traditions with the capital “T” as the understandings of scripture as handed down by the Church in her doctrines. This comes through quite clearly in the following:

Titus 1:7-9

For a bishop, as God’s steward, must be blameless; he must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of goodness, master of himself, upright, holy, and self-controlled; he must hold firm to the sure word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to confute those who contradict it.

Romans 16:17

I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.

Eph 4:20-21

You did not so learn Christ!–assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus.

Col 2:6-8

As therefore you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so live in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.

2 Thess 2:15

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

The “sure word as taught” is IMHO something quite different than “the word” as I might wish to interpret it. The “sure word as taught” is not negotiable and it certainly has nothing to do with any whim or creative thought that might be put forth by someone that separates themselves from the traditions and teachings of Christ Church. Scripture describes the Church as the pillar and bulwark of the truth[1 Tim 3:15]. We must look to the pillar and bulwark of the truth to know the “sure word as taught.”

God bless.

 

[Awful_Things]

I look at traditions with the capital “T” as the understandings of scripture as handed down by the Church in her doctrines.

I would clarify this some. Tradition couldn’t be the understanding of Scripture as, in most cases, the Tradition preceded the Scriptures. In fact, it could be argued that Scripture is the understanding of Tradition that came from the early Church councils looking at the commonly held Traditions of the time to determine which Scriptures were inspired.

I understand Tradition to be the teachings of Christ and the apostles as practiced and articulated through the centuries. It is as separate from Scripture as the left eye is from the right, but as necessarily intertwined with Scripture as the left and the right eyes are in forming accurate depth perception.

Another analogy would be, in a sport, the relationship between the book of rules and the coaching tradition (one coach who learned from another, who learned from another, back through the history of the game). The book of rules, as with Scripture, materially articulates the concept of baseball, but it would be a poor guide to a group of kids if not for the demonstrative guidance of a coach. The magisterium (the umpire) takes into account the book of rules and the precedent of past calls to make authoritative calls during the game.

 

[Ignatius]

Hmmm,things NCs believe that are not in the Bible. Lets see.

1. Evangelistic appeals.
2. VBS.
3. Youth groups and youth pastors.
4. Church picnics,
5. Praise bands.
6. Bible Colleges.
7. Short hair on men, long hair on women. ( I once knew a preacher who insisted Jesus had a crewcut)
   I’m sure there’s more, but I can’t think of any right now.

Alter calls, definitely an extra-biblical practice.

 

[Awful_Things]

Alter calls, definitely an extra-biblical practice.

As are the sinner’s prayer and the selection of a pastor by elders or popular vote of the congregation.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Can you show me where in the Bible it calls tradition God breathed? Additionally, if tradition is God breathed then why can it chan, err I mean evolve?

Drawmack-

I saw that you were annoyed that Teachccd failed to answer this question directly (post #28).

I think that there are numerous passages that reflect the idea that the oral teaching of the Apostles was inspired by God.

1 Thessalonians 2:13
And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

Paul declares that the teaching delivered to the Thessalonians is not that of men but is the word of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:15

So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Thessalonians 3:6

In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the tradition you received from us.

There’s more, but 1 Th. 2:13 should be sufficient.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Drawmack-

Having addressed your post (see above), can you now address mine?

Post #25 provided examples of extra-biblical Traditions which I believe even Protestants would agree are binding upon the consciences of all believers.

Do you agree or disagree with that argument?

If not, why not?

If so, what does this mean for the doctrine of sola scriptura?

 

[Drawmack]

That’s the whole point of this thread. It doesn’t have to be in the Bible.

Okay, I get that. However, the claim about Sacred Traditions is based on the notion of Apostolic Succession. This his is a historic claim, and the Church does not claim infallibility in matters of history. So, fine it doesn’t have to be in the Bible, you can use any reasonable historic document. But prove this historic claim and do so in the face of 1 Tim’s requirements to be a Bishop and the fact that different sects and rites practice these traditions different, some even subscribe a different meaning to them.

Tradition and Scripture cannot, however, be contradictory.

This is why I never have and never will say that Catholics are not Christians or act like Catholics need to be converted. So long as what you teach isn’t contrary to Gospel you’re good to go in my book. But, that doesn’t mean I accept those teachings as necessary either.

So I don’t have to tell you where the Bible says it is God breathed, but you do have to tell me where the Bible says that it is not.

Do you believe that the Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Apostolic Church? Do you believe that the Catholic Church is the only Church with the full deposit of the faith? Do you believe that you should seek to convert me to Catholicism?

Okay, now I see no need to convert you because I hold different beliefs on what Church is than you do, but you should be seeking to convert me according to the Catholic teachings on ecumenism in the CCC. This being the case, I really don’t have to show you anything because I believe that you can be saved as easily where you are as I can where I am. So, if you really want to stand by this statement what you’re saying is – I don’t have to answer your questions about Catholicism; You have to show me why we’re wrong. You can say that all you want, but it’s probably not going to get many converts.

(And I mean tradition with a capital T, not “traditions of men”).

Those are your beliefs, I do not want to misrepresent myself. I use the capital T for clarity when speaking of both. I simply don’t wish to misrepresent my beliefs. Much like those Catholics that refuse to capitalize words like Protestant or say things like POR-TEST-ANT.