It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

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Lev23 said:
Like I stated in my other post, the written Word was present for the Church already. The people of Israel had to listen to what written Torah said to do. They were not supposed to follow in the hypocrisy of those teachers. Jesus spoke alot of their hypocrisy. As far as this “interpretation” authoruty thing of the Moses seat, it is interesting to note, again, that the teachers of the Law in the OT could teach the entire Law in a single day, even while the people stood there and listened. When the teachers taught the Law as written, making it easy to understand, and would also walk the walk, the people should submit to their authority. This carries over to the shepards in the Church—
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lev23

If your theory, “the written Word was present for the Church already”, which is what it is, is true, than where is the history that of the teaching of your theory. Can you document any type of Christian leaders who taught that “the written Word was present for the Church already” ?
 
Lev23 said:
Like I stated in my other post, the written Word was present for the Church already. The people of Israel had to listen to what written Torah said to do. They were not supposed to follow in the hypocrisy of those teachers. Jesus spoke alot of their hypocrisy. As far as this “interpretation” authoruty thing of the Moses seat, it is interesting to note, again, that the teachers of the Law in the OT could teach the entire Law in a single day, even while the people stood there and listened. When the teachers taught the Law as written, making it easy to understand, and would also walk the walk, the people should submit to their authority. This carries over to the shepards in the Church—
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Interesting qualifiers you put on it. You teach beyond what Jesus said, who in fact told people to still listen to what they said, just not pay attention to what they do. Is your authority greater than Christ?
 
joe370 said:
Lev, you did not answer CM’s question

The Bible was not put under one cover until 397 AD at the Council of Carthage. It took a monk 10 months to hand copy the Bible. Prior to the Bible being put under one cover, who was the authority figure for the early church? Remember, the Bible did not exist as we know it today. If you were a Christian for the first 300 years of Christianity, you would have obeyed your church leaders and defered to them just as your bible commands:

There is NO denying the fact that authority was Jesus church–not the Bible.
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Of course His church is the authority, but that is because He is the authority, His Spirit, His Word.

Christians were not walking around with little or no scriptures for the first 300 years. The Church at first was comprised of Jews and converts to Judasim. This meant they had access to the scriptures in the synagogues in and out if the land of Israel. Other Jews would check out the Apostles teachings from the scriptures. The writings of the NT tell how Jesus came to fulfill the Law, the prophets, and psalms. There were miraculous things happening to the Church from the beginning. But clearly, when they witnessed, they always used the scriptures to back what they were saying. The history they spoke was always the events in the scriptures. And like I said, they spoke of these things like real history, were today some question the events of God’s creation of man, the flood, the exodus of Israel out of Egypt, etc. The baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was explained easily to the people by St.Peter, by using scripture. When Stephan was about to be stoned, he gave a scriptural and historical account of Israel, even quoting Isaiah.
 
MariaG said:
Interesting qualifiers you put on it. You teach beyond what Jesus said, who in fact told people to still listen to what they said, just not pay attention to what they do. Is your authority greater than Christ?
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Of course not!

They people were to listen to what the written Torah said for them to do. They were not supposed to follow in their hypocrisy. Yes, they were not suppposed to do what the hypocrite teachers do. But some of the stuff they did came from the traditions of the elders.

Matthew 15:1-9
Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’ he is not to ‘honor his father’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
" ‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ "

Oh, boy, sorry, there is another teaching backed by scripture from Jesus.

And while we are on the “moses seat/authority” topic, it is important to see the result of those that blindly rely on traditions of men which leads to hypocrisy-

**Matthew 23:13-15
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. **

I did not teach anything beyond what Jesus said.
In the OT, there were times when the people of Israel, all who were able, would listen to the written Law read for them. They were to know it for themselves and pass it on to the next generation unchanged from what they heard. False teachers could be picked out by the people if need be. This is not my qualifier, but is scripturally historical.
 
CoachSTL said:
lev23

If your theory, “the written Word was present for the Church already”, which is what it is, is true, than where is the history that of the teaching of your theory. Can you document any type of Christian leaders who taught that “the written Word was present for the Church already” ?
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Again, the first Church were all Jews, and the scriptures were in the synagogues. Jesus Himself read from the scripture scrolls on the synagogues. The oral Gospel preached and witness reprot of Jesus Christ by the Apsotles was all backed by the scriptures that could be found in the synagogues.
 
Lev23 said:
Of course His church is the authority, but that is because He is the authority, His Spirit, His Word.

Christians were not walking around with little or no scriptures for the first 300 years. The Church at first was comprised of Jews and converts to Judasim. This meant they had access to the scriptures in the synagogues in and out if the land of Israel. Other Jews would check out the Apostles teachings from the scriptures. The writings of the NT tell how Jesus came to fulfill the Law, the prophets, and psalms. There were miraculous things happening to the Church from the beginning. But clearly, when they witnessed, they always used the scriptures to back what they were saying. The history they spoke was always the events in the scriptures. And like I said, they spoke of these things like real history, were today some question the events of God’s creation of man, the flood, the exodus of Israel out of Egypt, etc. The baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was explained easily to the people by St.Peter, by using scripture. When Stephan was about to be stoned, he gave a scriptural and historical account of Israel, even quoting Isaiah.
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lev23

Lev, my son, all these things you say are true, but what you say is not the complete truth either.

One must have walked with Christ in order to know exactly what He meant by what he said, and one must have walked with the Apostles to truthfully know and understand what they have written. Scriptures themselves stated vehemently, that no man can self interpret teh Sacred Scriptures.

One cannot summise fully and accurately completely the history of the Church by reading Sacred Scripture alone. One must have walked with those who wrote them. Or, one must read from those wrote about what the Apostles taught and wrote about what Jesus taught.

It is a historical fact that the New Testament was written by people who worshipped Christ in the Eucharist, received sacramental absolution from divinely ordained priests through the succession of the laying of hands in the same context that Christ laid hands on the Apostles.

Your comments are only theory, and are in vain nevertheless, unless you have been sent by Christ to teach them.

Have you been sent by Christ to teach the Sacred Scripture?
 
Lev23 said:
Again, the first Church were all Jews, and the scriptures were in the synagogues. Jesus Himself read from the scripture scrolls on the synagogues. The oral Gospel preached and witness reprot of Jesus Christ by the Apsotles was all backed by the scriptures that could be found in the synagogues.
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Lev23,

Again, your comments are true, Jesus DID teach in the syngogues, But again, you are not stating the full truth about why Jesus taught from the synagogues. The Catholic Church has the documentation to show why, where is yours to refute the Catholic Church’s documentation. Yours is only theory at this point.

All you need to do is to show us historical documentation from people in the early Church who had the authority to say so, that states that Jesus said to follow the Bible.
Can you do so?
 
**Lev, you said:

Of course His church is the authority, but that is because He is the authority, His Spirit, His Word.
**

Agreed! Jesus said: all authority has been given to me. Which church in the world today was given the authority to teach?

**Christians were not walking around with little or no scriptures for the first 300 years.

**
Absolutely agree with you.

**The Church at first was comprised of Jews and converts to Judasim. This meant they had access to the scriptures in the synagogues in and out if the land of Israel.
**

Agreed!

**Other Jews would check out the Apostles teachings from the scriptures. **

Christians belonging to Jesus’ early Church relied on oral tradition, the accounts of eyewitnesses, as well as scattered pre-gospel documents (such as those quoted in 1 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Timothy 2:11-13) and written tradition. Most catholic churches only had parts of what was to become the New Testament. The bible alone as the only authority would have been not only impossible but the downfall of Christianity, due to all of the apocryphal/gnostic writings floating around, or at least the fragmentation and total loss of continuity with Jesus’ one apostolic and universal church, almost immediately, During the first four centuries there were substantial disagreements over which books should be included in the canon of scripture. The first person on record attempting to establish a New Testament canon was, ironically, the second-century heretic, Marcion. He wanted Jesus’ Church to reject its Jewish heritage by dispensing with the Old Testament entirely. Marcion’s canon included only one gospel, which he himself edited, and ten of Paul’s epistles. Sad but true, the first attempted New Testament was heretical. Many scholars believe that it was partly in reaction to this distorted canon of Marcion that the early Church decided to create a clearly defined canon of its own, that would stand the test of time. The destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, the breakup of the Jewish-Christian community there, and the threatened loss of continuity in the apostolic writings vs the pseudo/heretical writings no doubt contributed to the sense of the urgent need for Jesus’ Church to standardize the list of books Christians could rely on. During this period of the canon’s evolution, most apostolic churches had only a few, if any, of the apostolic writings available to them, which is a stark contrast to today. It is very important for Christians today to view things as the early Christians would have! The books of the holy Bible had to be painstakingly copied by hand, at great expense of time and effort, and because there was no printing press very few people had access to these scattered pre-gospel documents/epistles, and no one had a bound bible as we have today. That is the very reason why sola scriptura could not have been the authority for the early church Christians.The writings of the NT tell how Jesus came to fulfill the Law, the prophets, and psalms. There were miraculous things happening to the Church from the beginning.

Agreed.

**But clearly, when they witnessed, they always used the scriptures to back what they were saying.
**

Are you referring to the bound bible as we know it today, which was finally codified in the latter part of the 4th century?

** The history they spoke was always the events in the scriptures. And like I said, they spoke of these things like real history, were today some question the events of God’s creation of man, the flood, the exodus of Israel out of Egypt, etc. The baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was explained easily to the people by St.Peter, by using scripture.**

The 27 bound books of the NT did not exist when Peter was teaching. If you are refering to the old testament then I agree.

**When Stephan was about to be stoned, he gave a scriptural and historical account of Israel, even quoting Isaiah.
**

Agreed. 👍
 
Originally Posted by yankee_drifter View Post
Does the roman catholic magesterium believe it knows more than the Holy Spirit who authored the Holy Scriptures?
Hey drifter…

Typically, when most people ask if one believes the Bible, that person means do you believe the Bible as I interpret it, or, as my church interprets it? The question that no one will give a straight answer to, is: who has the God given authority? Drifter, who has the authority, granted by Jesus Christ? To which church in the world today do the following words apply? She, as the bride of Christ, has to still be here for the simple fact that Jesus is the savior of His church and the holy spirit is to be with her until the end of time:

*“But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; *and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

*“When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.”
*

*“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
*

Why would the catholic magesters (teachers) - believe to know more than the holy spirit? I’ve never heard anyone say that, until now. The holy spirit is guiding the church built by Jesus, until the end of time - correct? She, as the bride of Christ derives her authority from Jesus and cannot teach error if in fact the holy spirit is her divine rudder - correct? Are you suggesting that the holy spirit authored the holy bible without any human intervention from Jesus’ established church?

Jesus’ one church collected, selected, compiled and finally codified the canon of scripture, out of a bevy of writings, some of which were considered inspired and many more that were considered egregious and apocryphal, but taught nonetheless, by many movements outside the CC, as being the very words of God. In the earliest centuries there were hundreds of gospels floating around. It took the Catholic Church built by God and guided by the holy spirit, 500 + years to fully agree on the current canon of scripture; that is, those books which were defined as divinely inspired. In the first and early second centuries, there was no universally defined canon of scripture, although by the 2nd and 3rd centuries, most of the books in our current New Testament were generally, universally accepted throughout the Christian world. However, 2 John, 3 John, 2 Peter, Hebrews, and Revelation were still disputed. The Shepherd of Hermas was considered canonical scripture by some of the early Church fathers and read in church. The apocalypse of Peter was once considered inspired scripture by several ancient Christian authorities. Many scholars believe the Gospel according to the Hebrews was widely circulated in the early church and enjoyed a good reputation, but was later judged apocryphal, by the CC. Paul, the earliest known Christian author, wrote several letters in Greek to various churches. Many survived and are included in the New Testament, but others are known to have been lost. The Epistle to the Colossians states:

“After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea.”

Many of the eastern catholic churches accepted 1 Clement as canonical scripture, but, by the end of the eighth century, none of the catholic churches, eastern or western, included 1 Clement in any official listing of the canonical New Testament. St. Athanasius describes the didache as:

"appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of goodness."

If you lived in his time you would have heard the didache read in church, and guess what it instructs Christians to do? Check it out. As you can see, sola scriptura was never meant to be our final authority.

In addition to that evidence against the 16th century man-made doctrine - sola scriptura, we are confronted with the cost factor. Due to cost, most early catholic churches did not own complete copies of the holy bible. Copying a book was expensive and time-consuming, so individual churches usually had only a few books from the bible on hand, perhaps a few gospels and some of Paul’s letters. An individual possessing a copy of the bible would have been impossible until the early 5th century. Edification was achieved through oral preaching of the apostolic faith, Eucharistic worship, catechesis (didache), and the scriptures they had in their possession. Early Christians knew Jesus, the eternal Word, without a codified and bound bible quite well. Here is a question that you might want to ponder: could the concept of reading the Bible for oneself, outside of the Catholic Church, even have been possible before the invention of the printing press in the 15th century?

Look forward to your response. 👍
 
The Holy Scriptures does say the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. However, it does not mean that the church is the truth or necessarily teaches truth, but rather the church’s responsibility is to defend the Scriptures. All that God has revealed to us in his Word. All the teachings of Christ. The foundation of the church was built by the apostles with Jesus Christ as chief cornerstone. Pillar means to hold something up. So any church that teaches something different from what God said, is not defending the Word of God, is in serious error and not apostolic.

Jesus is LORD :amen:
 
Posted by joe370:
Drifter, who has the authority, granted by Jesus Christ? To which church in the world today do the following words apply? She, as the bride of Christ, has to still be here for the simple fact that Jesus is the savior of His church and the holy spirit is to be with her until the end of time:
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Joe, if you shorten your posts maybe we can fully respond. 😉 Who has the authority granted by Jesus Christ? All born again believers in Him. Peter said all true Christians are a Royal Priesthood. Were the keys just given to Peter by Jesus? No. He later gave the keys to all the apostles and likewise to those in the churches today. The Holy Spirit teaches and guides those who belong to Christ.

See Joe, like a lot of roman catholics you believe “Church” means an organization or denomination. It doesn’t. The body of Christ, His very bride, are spiritually born again believers in Him.The Bible tells us how and why one must be born again.

You believe in your church. Your faith is in your church. You believe your church can save you through its sacramental system.You believe that when you die, if enough prayers and masses are said for you, that you can get out of “purgatory” sooner. Are you trusting in Christ alone for your salvation? Or church rules and rituals?

Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. Not just of your church, Joe. He died for the sinner, for your sins and mine. He paid it in full when He said: “It is finished.” He completed the work that God the Father sent Him to do. Remission of sin can only happen with the shedding of blood. He saves those who come to Him and put their trust and faith in him. 1 John 1:7, 2:2 says Christ completely purifies the sinner who confesses directly to Him.

Do you accept that Joe? Or do you believe you must “do” something to pay for your everyday sins? Do something to get to heaven? To shorten purgatory? If your faith isn’t in Christ alone, then what is it in? The Bible says when we repent, God is faithful to forgive. Jesus reconciled man to God, making it possible for us to go directly to God. No human mediator is needed. Christ alone is the Mediator. And where in Scriptures do we see distinctions of venial and mortal sins? Your church has taught that missing mass is a sin. That having assurance of eternal salvation is a sin. It used to be a sin to eat meat on friday. Jesus never taught those things. So if a church claims those things are a sin, them its claiming to know more than God, the Holy Spirit who authored the Holy Scriptures.
 
What’s interesting is the roman catholic and the mormons both ask which church was given the authority to teach. The Mormons claim the “church” fell into apostasy not long after the deaths of the apostles and that the authority was lost. But their founder Joe Smith was called by God to restore the church and this authority. Both catholics and mormons say the other is an apostate church. While your all squabbling about “my church,” Jesus said he gives authority to every believer in Him. To all who put their trust in Him and confess their sins, God promises to forgive and remember their sin no more. Every regenerate believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is part of the Royal Priesthood.

If God promises not to remember anymore your old sins that you’ve confessed; gone to the priest for absolution, then why are you still holding on to those sins and doing penance? Why are you believing in the need for further “purification” after death?

The OT law not only made all subject to it and liable to be condemned for the guilt of sin, but was also unable to remove that guilt, and clear the conscience. But, by the blood of Christ, a full remission of sins was provided, so that God would remember them no more.
 
**Yankee_drifter, you said: **

Joe, if you shorten your posts maybe we can fully respond. 😉

**That seems reasonable. I will, after responding to your post. Do you believe what i wrote though, regarding the bible as being the Christians only authority for the first 400 years of Christianity, or even 1500 years? You can PM if you want.

You said:
**

**Who has the authority granted by Jesus Christ? All born again believers in Him.
**

**So, all Christians regardless of church affiliation have the authority to interpret the bible as they based on their unique view of their bibles? For example the following Christian churches (and that’s nothing compared to the true number) - all have the God given authority to teach based on their interpretation of the bible:
  • Adventists
  • Anabaptist
  • Anglican / Episcopalian
  • Baptist
  • Calvinist
  • Charismatic
  • Congregational
  • Gospel Hall Brethren
  • Lutheran
  • Methodist / Wesleyan
  • Non-denominational
  • Pentecostal
  • Presbyterian
  • Quakerism
  • Reformed
  • Restoration movement
  • Unitarian
  • Waldensians
Keeping in mind that, typically, when these church leaders ask if one believes the Bible, those church leaders mean, do you believe the Bible as we interpret it? You will be the first person that has ever answered this question.
**

See Joe, like a lot of roman catholics you believe “Church” means an organization or denomination. It doesn’t. The body of Christ, His very bride, are spiritually born again believers in Him.The Bible tells us how and why one must be born again.

**How many Bodies doe Jesus have; as far as I know he only has one head? The CC believes that Jesus built one church and His church is the assembly of believers united. If you lived for the first 1500 years of Christianity to which non-Catholic church would you belong? Does the CC have just as much authority as the 15 churches I listed?
**

You believe in your church. Your faith is in your church. You believe your church can save you through its sacramental system.You believe that when you die, if enough prayers and masses are said for you, that you can get out of “purgatory” sooner. Are you trusting in Christ alone for your salvation? Or church rules and rituals?

**You believe in the 16th century man-made doctrine sola scriptura. Are you trusting in Christ alone for your salvation? Or church man-made rules? **

Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. Not just of your church, Joe.

**Agreed. Is he the savior of the Catholic church, or is the church built by Jesus the whore of Babylon as most protestants teach? I am a former protestant and sadly, this is what they teach, for the most part. **

Do you accept that Joe? Or do you believe you must “do” something to pay for your everyday sins?

**One cannot earn one’s way into heaven. We are in agreement. **

Do something to get to heaven?

**However, faith without works is dead, as per the bible. Jesus said: pick up your cross and follow me. He did not say: don’t worry about doing anything good in life; I got you covered. Salvation is a free gift for everyone who picks up their cross…
**

"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

If your faith isn’t in Christ alone, then what is it in?

**Yup! If that is all we need to do, then why even go to church; just have faith in Christ; no teachers necessary - correct? Why does Paul tell us to obey our leaders and defer to their authority? Do you have teachers or are you your only teacher; be honest? If your faith is in Christ alone, thenwhy the need for teachers or churches? ** 🙂
 
The Bible says when we repent, God is faithful to forgive. Jesus reconciled man to God, making it possible for us to go directly to God.

**No church needed? :confused: So, why did He build it and give his church authority? You said that all Christians have authority to teach; why are these teachers acting as mediators, necessary when all we have to do to be saved is repent directly to Jesus?

**
No human mediator is needed. Christ alone is the Mediator.

**Including the CC and every single PC and Evangelical church and non-denominational church, with human teachers in them mediating? That excludes you as a teacher mediating on your behalf, or someone else’s - correct? Take it right to the our only teacher/mediator , Jesus Christ!
**

And where in Scriptures do we see distinctions of venial and mortal sins?

**Where in scripture does it tell us that the scripture alone is our only authority? No one has ever attempted to answer that question either. I"ll answer this question when you answer mine; seems fair! 👍
**

Your church has taught that missing mass is a sin.

**The CC as well as all protestant/evangelical churches teach that you’re harming your relationship with God by you’re choosing not to spend time with Him in His Fathers home (house of the living God), where truth can be found (pillar and foundation of truth). The CC and the EOC believe that Christians receive spiritual food for the soul when they go to church, which is Jesus in the Eucharist (which is the Greek word for thanksgiving). This teaching is so biblical that I had no choice but to leave my former Lutheran church and become catholic. Christians also hurt the whole community by depriving them of their joining the worship and praise of God, be it church or Mass, which is celebrated at church. We might not think about it a lot but each person at church/Mass brings a special quality that no one else can bring, when someone is missing, then the whole celebration is different. It is the loaf, not the priest, that makes us one even though we are many. The only way the loaf can make the entire assembly one is if it truly is Christ. There is no power in something like wonder bread is there? LOL…
Code: 
*The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
17
Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.
18 *

After all aren’t we as brothers and sisters in Christ, the church. If we don’t go then Jesus’ church would cease to exist. Yes, missing Mass on Sunday could be considered a mortal sin, unless of course you’re in a situation that makes you unable to attend Mass, e.g. being sick. That can’t be helped. You didn’t plan on being sick. You didn’t wake up Sunday morning and pull a Ferris Bueller. LOL…God only asks that we go to worship Him once a week, and it usually doesn’t take much longer than an hour or so. And in return He offers us the gift of His Son in the Eucharist, and His word for us to live by through the scriptures, which is the case in the myriad protestant churches: they all go to church to receive edification of an experienced minister/pastor/teacher. **

That having assurance of eternal salvation is a sin.

Show me in the CCC where it says: having assurance of eternal salvation is a sin. :confused::confused::confused:

It used to be a sin to eat meat on friday. Jesus never taught those things.

**I"ll buy that one. 👍 However, he never said: once saved always saved, or that the bible is our only authority via individual interpretation. That is explicitly frowned upon in the bible. **

So if a church claims those things are a sin, them its claiming to know more than God, the Holy Spirit who authored the Holy Scriptures.

**I can’t buy that one though. Jesus never told anyone to celebrate his birthday, let alone his birthday on December 25th or his resurrection on April 12. These are catholic traditions embraced by you! Why do you do this; It’s not in the bible? Jesus told us to do just one thing in remembrance of him; do you know what that is? And this is to take place in His church on Sunday, or any day for that matter. **
 
CoachSTL said:
Scriptures themselves stated vehemently, that no man can self interpret teh Sacred Scriptures.

2 Peter 1:20-21
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2 Peter 1:21
For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Looking at verse 21, the context is about how prophecy and prophecy of scripture originates from God, not man. In verse 16, St.Peter stated they did not follow cleverly invented stories about the transfiguration of Jesus.

In light of his testimony, St.Peter encourages to pay more attention to “the words of the prophets made more certain”.

2 Peter 1:19
And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

I don’t see any hint of where 1 Peter 2:20-21 vehemently means no man can self-interpret scripture.
 
swords99 said:
The Holy Scriptures does say the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. However, it does not mean that the church is the truth or necessarily teaches truth, but rather the church’s responsibility is to defend the Scriptures. All that God has revealed to us in his Word. All the teachings of Christ. The foundation of the church was built by the apostles with Jesus Christ as chief cornerstone. Pillar means to hold something up. So any church that teaches something different from what God said, is not defending the Word of God, is in serious error and not apostolic.

Jesus is LORD :amen:
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JL: Eph3:7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 HIS INTENT WAS that NOW, THROUGH THE CHURCH, the MANIFOLD WISDOM OF GOD SHOULD BE MADE KNOWN to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

JESUS IS LORD INDEED, ALLELUIA AMEN
 
Lev, when you get the chance please respond to the following. You said, regarding the following passage:

Looking at verse 21, the context is about how prophecy and prophecy of scripture originates from God, not man. In verse 16, St.Peter stated they did not follow cleverly invented stories about the transfiguration of Jesus.

*Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
*

If in fact “no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation,” then no one has the right to interpret scripture; only God!!! Does prophecy of scripture originate from God as opposed to man? Of course! But, God, according to the preceding passage, works through specific men who were/are carried along by the Holy Spirit…These men spoke/speak from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit/ Let us see if we can locate these men who were endowed with the holy spirit. Jesus said to his established church:

*“When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.”
*

“And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be for ever with you–the Spirit of truth.”

*“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”
*
"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me.*

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

Do the men belonging to the church built by Jesus, on pentecost, qualify as men who spoke/speak from God as they were/are carried along by the Holy Spirit?
 
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