It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

[Lampo]

Where in the Bible does it say infallibly was bestowed upon the apostles?

John 16:12 - Jesus had many things to say but the apostles couldn’t bear them at that point. This demonstrates that the Church’s infallible doctrine develops over time. All public Revelation was completed with the death of the last apostle, but the doctrine of God’s Revelation develops as our minds and hearts are able to welcome and understand it. God teaches His children only as much as they can bear, for their own good.

Gal. 2:11-14 - non-Catholics sometimes use this verse to diminish Peter’s evident authority over the Church. This is misguided. In this verse, Paul does not oppose Peter’s teaching, but his failure to live by it. Infallibility (teaching without error) does not mean impeccability (living without sinning). Peter was the one who taught infallibly on the Gentile’s salvation in Acts 10,11. With this rebuke, Paul is really saying “Peter, you are our leader, you teach infallibly, and yet your conduct is inconsistent with these facts. You of all people!” The verse really underscores, and not diminishes, the importance of Peter’s leadership in the Church.

Eph. 3:9 - this, in fact, is a mystery hidden for all ages - that God manifests His wisdom through one infallible Church for all people.

1 Thess. 5:21 - Paul commands us to test everything. But we must have something against which to test. This requires one infallible guide that is available to us, and this guide is the Catholic Church, whose teachings on faith and morals have never changed.

What they wrote as scripture was the work of the Holy Spirit,…

How do you know this?

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

John 16:12 - Jesus had many things to say but the apostles couldn’t bear them at that point. This demonstrates that the Church’s infallible doctrine develops over time. All public Revelation was completed with the death of the last apostle, but the doctrine of God’s Revelation develops as our minds and hearts are able to welcome and understand it. God teaches His children only as much as they can bear, for their own good.
1 Thess. 5:21 - Paul commands us to test everything. But we must have something against which to test. This requires one infallible guide that is available to us, and this guide is the Catholic Church, whose teachings on faith and morals have never changed.

Beware of erring on the side of Modernism - that each believer receives his own special revelation through his own mind, and that faith is the reaction within the soul resulting from such revelation, advocating a rationlistic approach.

(Pope St Pius X had clergy swear an oath against the errors of Modernism, Pope Paul VI removed this.)

 

[CoachSTL]

Where in the Bible does it say infallibly was bestowed upon the apostles? What they wrote as scripture was the work of the Holy Spirit, not their own work. Peter made so many mistakes.

The catholic church has never proven that apostleship was passed on to them today. In fact, apostleship was a one time mission and there can be no apostles today. What we have are church leaders: elders, pastors, bishops and deacons. We don’t even see any priests in the New Covenant because Jesus did away with the imperfect priesthood of men and its sacrifices and became the last Priest because He is perfect and no longer dies like the priests in the O.T. who had to be replaced.

Bishops becoming pope is an invention of the roman catholic church. Even the eastern Orthodox church does not believe in papal infallibility and they claim to be the very church Christ built.

Its so easy to lose the thread topic because everyone asks a lot of different questions which they demand answers to and it can’t help but veer in different directions.

JacobG

Where in the Bible does it say “infallibility was not” bestowed on the Apostles?

JacobG: “The catholic church has never proven that apostleship was passed on to them today. In fact, apostleship was a one time mission and there can be no apostles today.”

Coachstl: The mere existence of the Catholic Church is the proof of the apostleship passed on to them. It is its history! Whether you choose to beleive this or not is your priveledge because of the freedom to choose. But your choice not to beleive it is only your choice, nothing more.

JacobG*“What we have are church leaders: elders, pastors, bishops and deacons. We don’t even see any priests in the New Covenant because Jesus did away with the imperfect priesthood of men and its sacrifices and became the last Priest because He is perfect and no longer dies like the priests in the O.T. who had to be replaced.”*

Coachstl: Many of the things you say above are true statements, but they are incomplete in the fullness of truth. They are also your theory.

JacobG: “Bishops becoming pope is an invention of the roman catholic church. Even the eastern Orthodox church does not believe in papal infallibility and they claim to be the very church Christ built.”

Coachstl: Again, Jacob, this is only your theory. And, a proclamation by the Eastern Orthodox that is undfounded.

If your theories are true. Than why wasn’t this teaching recorded by the Christians who walked with the Apostles and those after them?

 

[Philthy]

Where in the Bible does it say infallibly was bestowed upon the apostles? What they wrote as scripture was the work of the Holy Spirit, not their own work. Peter made so many mistakes.

 

[yankee_drifter]

There is only ONE infallible guide, and that’s the Holy Scriptures. Jesus was asked what is Truth. Jesus said: Thy Word is Truth. The Holy Spirit indeed guided the apostles when they wrote the scriptures, but we must remember this was a one time mission given only to the apostles. That’s why there are no apostles today. There are no more writings today that can be placed on par with God’s Word.

 

[SteveGC]

There is only ONE infallible guide, and that’s the Holy Scriptures. Jesus was asked what is Truth. Jesus said: Thy Word is Truth.

Funny how He didn’t say, Thy Written Word is Truth.

The Holy Spirit indeed guided the apostles when they wrote the scriptures, but we must remember this was a one time mission given only to the apostles. That’s why there are no apostles today. There are no more writings today that can be placed on par with God’s Word.

One time mission for the apostles? Um, scripture was not just written by the apostles. And hopefully you don’t think that the apostolic commission was a “one time mission”. If so, so much for all who sought Christ from the last apostle’s death until about 400 A.D.

 

[JacobG]

Please be more careful in your critiques. I never said the Bible claimed that infallibility was bestowed upon the apostles, I said you (Redbert) already believe that it was and I meant so in the context of their preaching the Gospel and writing Scripture, and I pointed it out specifically because it *isn’t *recorded in Scripture and yet he believes it. That was the whole point! Do you agree or disagree that the Holy Spirit guided the Apostles in preaching the Gospel and in writing their respective portions of Scripture infallibly? Yes or No, please. You obviously agree that they were infallibly guided in writing Scripture, yet you somehow feel that rewording their writings as “the work of the Holy Spirit” somehow changes the fact that the Holy Spirit worked through them. I dont see any difference at all. You believe that they wrote Scripture and that they did so infallibly - and that is not recorded in Scripture.

In other words, It’s NOT in the Bible, okay?

You believe that they wrote Scripture and that they did so infallibly - and that is not recorded in Scripture.

In other words, It’s NOT in the Bible, okay?

Did not the apostles say they had received the Commandments of God? This as opposed to the commandments of men. Paul states in 2 Thessalonians that men were to obey his epistle. Why? Because it was the word of God. Peter said: For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. This is evidence they wrote infallibly since it was the very word of God. However, as yankee already stated above, no man today writes infallibly because there can be no apostles today. There are no more written Scriptures. The canon is closed. Where does the Bible say men can speak infallibly today?

 

[JacobG]

Funny how He didn’t say, Thy Written Word is Truth. One time mission for the apostles? Um, scripture was not just written by the apostles. And hopefully you don’t think that the apostolic commission was a “one time mission”. If so, so much for all who sought Christ from the last apostle’s death until about 400 A.D.

Um, seems to be some scripture twisting here. Inspiration has to do with the words; the Words of Scripture came from God. They were God breathed through the human agency of men. They as imperfect men did not affect the accuracy or infallibility of the Bible. The Bible is as accurate and infallible as if God had written it without any human agent. God changes the believers life through the Word, it is a steady work of the Holy Spirit as we walk, yield and obey, He fills us with the Spirit. The Word is Spirit, and it affects us by our understanding it so we can be changed into the people Christ wants us to be. Ps.119:130 “The entrance of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple.”

Um, the Bereans searched the scriptures daily for Truth. We can only be doing what God wants when we know what His word says. Christ Himself is the Very Word: The Word made flesh. Can there be Truth apart from God?

Yes scripture wasn’t just written by the apostles but also prophets and eyewitnesses. That’s the one main criteria: one had to be an eyewitness.

Um, what do you have against the written word?

 

[CoachSTL]

Did not the apostles say they had received the Commandments of God? This as opposed to the commandments of men. Paul states in 2 Thessalonians that men were to obey his epistle. Why? Because it was the word of God. Peter said: For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. This is evidence they wrote infallibly since it was the very word of God. However, as yankee already stated above, no man today writes infallibly because there can be no apostles today. There are no more written Scriptures. The canon is closed. Where does the Bible say men can speak infallibly today?

JacobG

Where in the Bible does it say that “The Bible” speaks infallibly. And, if you look closely at what you are saying, you yourself are saying that man speaks infallibly. The first case is YOU!

This is your quote: Paul states in 2 Thessalonians that men were to obey his epistle. Why? Because it was the word of God.

First, you just made an infallible proclamation that your interpretation of Paul’s writing in the Bible are what YOU say they mean. “men are to obey the epistles because they are the word of God”. This is an absolute statement by you that you proclaim is the truth. Only an infallible man could make a statement like this and it be the Truth from God.

Second, your proclamations are only theory. I quote you, "This is evidence they wrote infallibly since it was the very word of God. What you proclaim as evidence, is not evidence of the Truth, but evidence to support your interpretation of a bibl verse, you theory in otherwords.

Who are you that I should believe your interpretations of the Bible? Have you been sent by God to tell all mankind?

 

[rinnie]

There is only ONE infallible guide, and that’s the Holy Scriptures. Jesus was asked what is Truth. Jesus said: Thy Word is Truth. The Holy Spirit indeed guided the apostles when they wrote the scriptures, but we must remember this was a one time mission given only to the apostles. That’s why there are no apostles today. There are no more writings today that can be placed on par with God’s Word.

If the only infallible guide is the Holy Scriptures why did Jesus promise us the advocate the HOLY SPIRIT to guide us to the fullness of the truth. Why was the HS even needed if its the scriptures who were to lead us to all truth.

We also have another problem Jesus promised the Apostles that the HS would guide them and the CHurch until he comes again in glory. Now you say this was a ONE TIME mission, Where does scripture even say that. Jesus said he promised the Sacrament of HOLY ORDERS the laying of hands to be passed on until he comes again in glory. What do you do with that scripture then? Ignore it, skip it, rip it out or what?

 

[Lampo]

There is only ONE infallible guide, and that’s the Holy Scriptures.

How do YOU know? Why do you believe this?

 

[CoachSTL]

There is only ONE infallible guide, and that’s the Holy Scriptures. Jesus was asked what is Truth. Jesus said: Thy Word is Truth. The Holy Spirit indeed guided the apostles when they wrote the scriptures, but we must remember this was a one time mission given only to the apostles. That’s why there are no apostles today. There are no more writings today that can be placed on par with God’s Word.

yankee_drifter

Why should I beleive you? How do you know this information? Could you be wrong?

 

[SteveGC]

"SteveGC:

Funny how He didn’t say, Thy Written Word is Truth. One time mission for the apostles? Um, scripture was not just written by the apostles. And hopefully you don’t think that the apostolic commission was a “one time mission”. If so, so much for all who sought Christ from the last apostle’s death until about 400 A.D.

Um, seems to be some scripture twisting here. Inspiration has to do with the words; the Words of Scripture came from God. They were God breathed through the human agency of men. They as imperfect men did not affect the accuracy or infallibility of the Bible. The Bible is as accurate and infallible as if God had written it without any human agent. God changes the believers life through the Word, it is a steady work of the Holy Spirit as we walk, yield and obey, He fills us with the Spirit. The Word is Spirit, and it affects us by our understanding it so we can be changed into the people Christ wants us to be. Ps.119:130 “The entrance of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple.”

Um, the Bereans searched the scriptures daily for Truth. We can only be doing what God wants when we know what His word says. Christ Himself is the Very Word: The Word made flesh. Can there be Truth apart from God?

Yes scripture wasn’t just written by the apostles but also prophets and eyewitnesses. That’s the one main criteria: one had to be an eyewitness.

Um, what do you have against the written word?

While I appreciate this short dissertation on the sacredness of Holy Scripture, it is quite unnecessary for you to explain it to me. This is not about the inspiration of it, it is about the fact that it doesn’t stand by itself as the only “Word of God”. You yourself admit that the Word of God is Jesus, not just the scriptures. So why limit Him to just that which was written. Scripture itself doesn’t even do that.

The Bereans searched the Old Testament, and they did so because they were just being introduced to Christ’s Church, and it’s all they had to validate what was being preached. And they were not singled out because of their search of scripture, they were singled out because of their zeal for the truth, their desire to seek God and believe. Using the Bereans to support a theology that treats Scripture (as Sacred as it truly is) as the ONLY Word of God is an old, tired and weak tactic.

So, when I say “funny how He didn’t say Thy Written Word is Truth”…I am trying to point out that God’s Word is not limited to what is written, a fact you readily admit by acknowledging that Jesus Himself is the Word.

Lastly, I recognize your response was well-meaning and based on a limited understanding of Catholicism. I’ve been there, and my ignorance used to make me think as you do. Thanks for being here to find out what the Church teaches.

 

[joe370]

There is only ONE infallible guide, and that’s the Holy Scriptures.

Not the holy spirit in perpetuity?

Jesus was asked what is Truth. Jesus said: Thy Word is Truth. The Holy Spirit indeed guided the apostles when they wrote the scriptures,

And then the HS left Jesus’ church?

but we must remember this was a one time mission given only to the apostles. That’s why there are no apostles today. There are no more writings today that can be placed on par with God’s Word.

Jesus said that the holy spirit would be with his church forever. The holy spirit was sent to Jesus’ Jewish church leaders/teachers in His stead, as opposed to every Jew, and they passed on their inspired, inerrant teachings to their successive teachers, via the imposition of hands, as opposed to every Christian (Jew or gentile) - and this is very biblical, and to be done until the end of time, for Jesus said that he would be with the Apostles until the end of time. For Jesus to be with His Apostles until the end of time is only possible, with successors! The holy spirit guides Jesus’ established church, through this lineage of successors, regardless of the chaff mixed in with the wheat. Men, through the inspiration of the evil one, can infect the Body of Christ but they cannot alter the deposit of faith, which has been and will be transmitted through every century, to the very ends of the earth, and there were opportunities when the deposit of faith could have been tampered with.

 

[joe370]

Joe, I notice a certain ambiguity in your text.
(My motive is to clarify meaning in support of what you post)
The Church teaches private interpretation, as long as one follows rules:
The 2 Vatican Council indicates 3 criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it:

1. Be especially attentive to content and unity of the whole Scripture;
2. Read the Scripture within the living Tradition of the whole Church and
3. Be attentive to maintain cohesion of faith within the whole plan of Revelation.

(2 Vatican Council, Dei Verbum)

Absolutely; You are right. What I meant was; Jesus’ church has the authority vs the bible as the Christians only authority, via private interpretation.

 

[guanophore]

now show me where in the Bible where infallibilty was required or bestowed on a human or institution

It seems clear to me that you do not understand the gift of infallibility as it was taught by the Apostles. It does not mean that people can’t make mistakes.

Since humans are fallible, the only way they can do anything without error is when they are preserved by the gift of infallibility. This is the case with the writing and canonization of the NT.

When Jesus decided to build His Church on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, the possiblity of error existed because they are human. To compensate, Jesus gave the gift of infallibilty.

**Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. **

Humans are incapable of coming into “all Truth” without divine intervention.

 

[guanophore]

But more importantly, if you genuinely wish to know the difference between the teaching authority of the OT and the teaching authority of the NT, there are several issues to consider.
On a practical level, think about how explicit the OT is in terms of what the law requires. Think Deuteronomy. It is very explicit using affirmative language. The New Covenant and the NT are different in that the New Covenant - unlike the Old - is not a rigid set of rules to be followed and the NT - unlike the OT - is not written as a rule book. The law of the NT is the law of love and love (NT) cannot be contained or explained exhaustively by rule book the way that the law of obedience (OT) can.
Obedience does require an authority to settle disputes at times. This authority was given to the Sanhedrin (Pharisees, Saducees, etc). This authority was clearly not gifted with infallibility, but was nonetheless, gifted with authority. Christ clearly articulates this to his disciples: “do as they say for they sit in Moses’ seat, but do not do as they do”.
This OT authority figure has been abolished - in a sense - but in a more profound sense - was fulfilled in the New Covenant with the Apostles. They became the new authority under the NC. But something different happened: the sending of the Holy Spirit. When Christ breathed on them (hint hint - they were brought to “life”, just as Adam was brought to life when God breathed on him) and said, “Receive the gift of the Holy Spirit…that which you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven” They did indeed receive the gift of infallibility through that particular charism of the Holy Spirit which would lead them “into all truth” so that “whoever heard (them) heard Christ”. So that gift of infallibility can be seen in Scripture, but you might not see it, as Guanophore pointed out, if you have separated yourself from the Apostolic Tradition which produced those Scriptures. The passing on of that gift through Apostolic succession is also contained in Scripture, but again, can be missed if one places themself out of that Tradition.
What is clearly absent in the NT is the prophecy of forthcoming Scripture which is to serve as the rulebook for the new faith without any outside authority in place to guide the faithful. In addition, history clearly reveals that Scripture and the Church were inseparable in guiding the faithful. You would be wise to carefully consider Guanophore’s responses to Yankee and yourself, and to read some unbiased historical sources. The Truth, however scary or distasteful you may initially find it, will truly set you free.

Blessings!

Great post, as alway Philthy, thanks.

 

[joe370]

Yankee, you said:

**First off, as others have already pointed out on here, the protestant churches are not a new faith.
**

New faith, NO! New church built by man, YES. Give me the name of the church and I can give you the name of the man who built it and when.

**They went back to the beginning; the Holy Scriptures, and back to the simple teachings of Jesus Christ. **

If you were a Christian in the 11th century, to which church would you have belonged?

**The roman catholic church has added to the scriptures over the centuries that we can no longer see these teachings of God’s word. **

Your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

**What you see instead are the rituals and traditions that have been piled up on top of God’s Word over the years.
**

Again, where can I find the one true church that was reformed by man?

**What many on here fail to realize is that there were many christian groups since the beginning who met to worship and break bread. Some had names, others did not.
**

Outside the CC? Names please, otherwise, it’s just speculation.

**They had unity in their belief in Christ as Savior and being baptized in Him. They spread the Gospel.
**

Who is “they?”

The RCC has clearly forgotten about these original Jewish Christians.

Familiarize me with this true church comprised of original Christians.

**Also, the Baptist did not come out of the Reformation, so they are not a Protestant faith. **

Prove it. If you can prove that Jesus built the Baptist church I will join that church.

**They are biblical Christianity as they adhere to the teachings of Jesus and the Bible. **

Again, who is “they?”

**Some of these original groups of Christians now make up the Baptist faith. They were faithful to the teachings of Jesus and the apostles such as preaching the Gospel of Christ, baptism by immersion, etc.
**

Help me locate these original groups of Christians that traversed the centuries (along side the supposed apostate CC) - from Pentecost to the protestant reformation!!!

**Its one thing to claim the RCC started at Pentecost. All churches make that claim. **

And none of them can back it up. The CC can. If I am wrong, simply tell me who founded the RCC. I can tell you who founded every PC.

**But proving that the RCC, as we know it today, with its complex hierarchy,
**

Complex? Really? Bishop, priest deacon…not so complex.

massive wealth

What do you think they do with that money?

** power **

Given to them by Jesus! …“you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” What kind of power do you think the CC possesses, other than the power to do the work of God?

**and many traditions
**

Apostolic tradition? Yup. Man-made tradition like sola scriptura? NOPE!

**some of which cannot be traced back to the apostles, existed in the 1st century is quite another thing. Read books on the history of Christianity.
**

If the holy spirit is guiding the CC, then we can trust sacred tradition. Is the holy spirit still guiding the CC? Protestant books? Read them; no thanks; many fabrications. Tradition safeguarded your bible, until it was finally codified by the CC.

**As for Jesus and the apostles using the written word which were the OT and not the NT is irrelevant. Jesus said God’s word is Truth. The Holy Spirit authored the NT.

**
The apostles and their disciples (eg, Luke and Mark) - authored the 27 books of the NT, guided by the HS. Did the HS stop guiding Jesus’ church once the Apostles died?

Paul’s epistles were passed around and read in the churches. They were considered scripture. Even Peter makes this claim. Paul said in 1 Cor. 14:37: Even Peter makes this claim. Paul said in 1 Cor. 14:37:

Agreed.

**What was taught orally by the apostles, including Paul, was later written down for us today in the Holy Scriptures.
**

Is the holy spirit still guiding Jesus’ church until the end of time? To trust what Jesus’ church teaches, be it oral tradition or written tradition, is to trust the HS - right? Or, once again, did the holy spirit stop guiding the church built by God, once Jesus’ church codified the holy bible?

 

[guanophore]

Where in the Bible does it say infallibly was bestowed upon the apostles? What they wrote as scripture was the work of the Holy Spirit, not their own work. Peter made so many mistakes.

This is the perfect example of infallibilty. When a person does the work of the HS, not on their own, they are able to act without making a mistake. The Church needs this gift BECAUSE people make so many mistakes.

Another example of an infallible act was when Peter confronted Ananias and Sapphira.

The catholic church has never proven that apostleship was passed on to them today.

Neither does the Church make any such claim. The requirements for apostleship can no longer be met.

In fact, apostleship was a one time mission and there can be no apostles today. What we have are church leaders: elders, pastors, bishops and deacons.

And these have the authority that Jesus gave to the Apostles.

We don’t even see any priests in the New Covenant because Jesus did away with the imperfect priesthood of men and its sacrifices and became the last Priest because

It is true that Jesus fulfilled the priesthood, but it was never “of men”. The priesthood was always from God, and it still is today. the priesthood of the New Covenant is based upon the priesthood of Christ. We see it pre-figured in the OT, a High Priest, a ministerial priesthood, and a general priesthood (of believers). The modern word “priest” is a contraction of the Gk. “presbyter” in the NT (elder).

He is perfect and no longer dies like the priests in the O.T. who had to be replaced.

Indeed! But the NT priests do not “replace” Jesus. They act in the person of Christ.

Bishops becoming pope is an invention of the roman catholic church. Even the eastern Orthodox church does not believe in papal infallibility and they claim to be the very church Christ built.

No, Jacob, it is not. Non “Roman” Catholics also affirm the Pope, and the Orthodox also have Popes, (in the East they are called "Patriarch) but the role is the same. If you look at your history, you will see that the Coptic Patriarch is also called “pope”. It is a Latinzation because "pope’ means “father”.

The role of the Patriarch has been consistent in the Church. the issue of infallibiity is separate from it. It is probably off topic in this thread.

Its so easy to lose the thread topic because everyone asks a lot of different questions which they demand answers to and it can’t help but veer in different directions.

Yes. We will have to help each other.

 

[guanophore]

There is only ONE infallible guide, and that’s the Holy Scriptures.

No, Yankee. If this were true, we would not have a Church at all, because there was no NT when Jesus founded the Church upon the apsotles and prophets.

Besides, in order to be “infallible”, the possiblilty of fallibilty must exist. The scriptures do not have this quality. The attempt by the Reformers to force the Holy Writings into a role that was never intended for them has created a plethora of problems.

Jesus was asked what is Truth. Jesus said: Thy Word is Truth.

Yes, but God’s Word has never been confined to writings only.

The Holy Spirit indeed guided the apostles when they wrote the scriptures,

Yes, and this is what we call an “infallible” action. It is guided by the HS, and creates a product that is without error…

but we must remember this was a one time mission given only to the apostles. That’s why there are no apostles today. There are no more writings today that can be placed on par with God’s Word.

The need of the Church for the gift of infallibilty exists because there are so many different understandings of the Holy Scriptures. God’s Truth is not a matter of democracy.