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guanophore
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You might have gotten better participation if you put in over in Non-Catholic religions.So everyone missed this?
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DerekD
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My previous post indirectly addresses that; perhaps you can relook at it. You can aply logic and can only reasonably concur that all moral truth and practice of Chrisitanity will have to ultimately come from scipture for a couple of reasons. One is that it is the only known and verifiable revelation directly from God to man using the prophets and the apostels via the Trinity. Anyting not written down, which there must be a ton, was not what God chose to reveal; therefore anything outside of this authority must get it authority from scrioture to be valid.
So any traditions of man that fails or are cotrary to the teachings of scripture are to be tossed aside and traditions that afirm that which is already taught should be or can be embraced. Traditions can work for good as well as evil; they can enhance worship or pervert worship. Always gets back to the only trusted authority, which is what God has said.
All this is based on the presumption that one accepts the Bible as Gods authority word, and that it contains no error.
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guanophore
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No, but this is an excellent example of an extrabiblical tradition.
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DerekD
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what apostolic sucession; that is foreign to the bible and sounds like you speaking of some cult? you are somewhat confusing. the apostles were one of a kind to get the chucrch moving of the ground and were given apostolics powers of sign, wonders and healing; this all subsided upon teir deaths; no one i have ever heard of, except in cults, would say there is a succession, this implies all the powers given to them were passed along. the only sucession is the message of salvation, but i don’t think this is what you are speaking.???I did not mean to overlook the OT, of course.
However, since most discussions of this nature focus on whether or not Apostolic Succession really occurred and the development of the NT Church in the earliest centuries, I emphasized the development of our understanding of the teaching of the Apostles.
My apologies to any OT prophets reading this who may have been offended.
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StrawberryJam
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I have a few questions if you have some time on your hands to reply.
If I take your word on this, then I must have the most reliable translation of your narrative in order to even go anywhere with your theory.
Which should I start with? And on what basis?
Thank you
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DerekD
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i think i have it figured out; a Catholic beliefs and practices will not all be found in the bible because some of them lie outside of the bible and when a religion steps outside of those boundries, than anything can and does go; it is a matter of only time and general acc eptance by its members and leadership. this is how the gross distortions about Mary have derived. I passed by a church today named Mary Queen of Heaven and I just shook my head and prayed as i was thinking about those poor souls.
Question is where does this authority originate? If it is from God, then their would be special signs from heaven or other divine authority giving Gods stamp of approval. Cults will always have doctrines whose authorities are derived from within itself under the guise of divine authority. How can you prove anything as true aside from the Bible? You cannot.
I am not suggesting the Catholic church is a cult; I do not have enough knowledge to say that, but the little knowledge I do have and can see in the secular world indicates there are cultlike characteristics.
Even the topic, where does the Bible say…, well if you have the highest regard for scripture and you know it is a divine source of truth, then where else or what other book was given, the book of mormon???
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DerekD
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No, but this is an excellent example of an extrabiblical tradition.
Actually Jesus proved it that ignorance of scripture is deadly for Jesus and for those poor souls that had Him crucified. Remember He said; search the scriptures because they are that which speaks of me, you savior, the one who can save you from your sin; but they were ignorant and without understanding…nothing has changed in 2000 years, most religious people haven’t a clue who the savior really is; men rather play religion and feel thay must do something that God must feel good about toward them…that is never the way, the truth nor the life, which means nor the father.
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DerekD
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Ask me point blank, but if it is off topic, then you need to start a new thread in “NonCatholic Religions” or send me a PM and I will adress anything concerning the word of God, which i love and cherish beyond all things.
PS it is my bedtime, so i plan to make it back here tomorrow.
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guanophore
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No. You have a false premise. the claim that Jesus instituted them comes from revelation, not history.It happens to be recorded in history, but the source is divine revelation.
Even so, how can we prove that something which is clear in history is more true than it already is?
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Drawmack
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I love this. Every time I point out that something is a historic claim – including the basis for infallibility – and ask for proof I’m told it’s actually not historic but a matter of faith itself.
If it is clear in history then prove that! Show me Jesus instituting all seven Sacraments.
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RedBert
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What we disagree on is your definition of “definitive scriptural proof”
what it really comes down to: is that you don’t accept theses verses
1 Cor 4:6
6Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.
Luke 1:1-4:
1Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
In Matthew 4:1-11. Three times Jesus was tempted by the Devil and each time Jesus replied exactly the same three dangerous words that defeated the Devil: “IT IS WRITTEN” If any one could have used oral tradition, it was Jesus, yet he chose the only safe and sure way to defeat Satan: Scripture.
Mark 12:24
24Jesus replied, "**Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures **or the power of God?
2 Timothy 3:15
15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Yes, it can be understood by children
1 John 5:13
13 **I write these things **to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
2 Timothy 3:16-17:
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
No matter how you twist it, it still says that scripture alone is all-sufficient to equip us for EVERY good work*
Luke 10:26
What is written in the Law?" he replied. “How do you read it?”
Jesus expected even his enemies to correctly interpret the Bible by simply reading and studying it.
Acts 17:11-12
11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.
Even though the apostles were inspired with genuine oral revelation, they always directed people to the scriptures for the final determination of truth.
Deuteronomy 4:2
Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.
Etc etc
bible.ca/sola-scriptura-proof-texts.htm
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RedBert
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IN THE SAME WAY when the Muslims or JW point out that Jesus never actually said he was God, they are correct:
carm.org/religious-movements/islam/did-jesus-ever-say-exact-words-i-am-god
HOWEVER I’m sure you can list verse after verse where it shows that Jesus IS God.
What is comes down to is Muslims don’t accept those verses.
So no matter what verse you reference, they will shoot it down.
see how that works?
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mlchance
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RedBert
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so what , are you now going to use scripture as the authorty of for your traditions,
or just use tradition as your authority for your traditions…
(Edited)
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Lampo
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Why do you accept “the Bible as God’s authority word, and that it contains no error?”
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Lampo
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Where is it written in the Bible what books should be included in the Bible? Where is it written in the Bible that all Christian doctrines must be in the Bible? What is the pillar and bullwark of truth; the Bible or the Church?
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RedBert
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so on Judgment Day , when we are all standing in front of the Throne of Christ , and Jesus opens up the Book, be sure point to Him that you were just following church approved traditions.
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Lampo
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I think this is more accurate:
- ML comes up with an initial list of items that he saw as issues.
- CC looks at list and goes… You hit the nail on the head for a number…
- ML returns and says… But all are issues.
- CC responds… Hold on, just `cause you were right on a few, doesnt mean everyhting.
- ML: Well, the fact that you dont see it means i must be right.
- CC: Careful!
- ML: you know what else… you got the cannon all wrong too…
- CC: I hate to do this, but your fired
- ML: Wow… by the way… I also noticed that all you need is faith and the bible.
- CC: Everyone… please ignore this guy…
- ML: Hmm… If you arent able to even look at and agree with me, this must mean your not the real church after all… Its up to me to restore the true church
- CC: Doah!
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Lampo
Guest
What makes you think Jesus will open up the Book on Judgment Day? What Book are you talking about?
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