It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

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My point was to show that there is not a single, definitive definition of sola scriptura that all those who believe in sola scriptura adhere to.
You said this to the person who said that we should revert to the original definition of the phrase in order to discuss it.
It was also to show what Protestantism leads to - ultimately, chaos, fracturing, splintering and more schism.
Sure it does, that’s what happens when one group insists on saying that others who are actually of disparate groups are actually a single group. Catholicism also leads to chaos, fracturing, splintering, and more schism for proof of this statement I would like to call you attention to the fact that the Protestant Reformation is not the only Schism to haunt the Church since it’s inception.
 
You said this to the person who said that we should revert to the original definition of the phrase in order to discuss it.
I did indeed. Is this original definition of the phrase the one accepted by all Protestant faith traditions? If no, why not?
Drawmack said:
Sure it does, that’s what happens when one group insists on saying that others who are actually of disparate groups are actually a single group. Catholicism also leads to chaos, fracturing, splintering, and more schism for proof of this statement I would like to call you attention to the fact that the Protestant Reformation is not the only Schism to haunt the Church since it’s inception.
I’m aware of the other schisms. That doesn’t mean the Catholic Church teaches different sets of doctrines. *Catholicism *doesn’t lead to chaos, fracturing, splintering and more schism, **people that are dissident to her teachings lead to chaos, fracturing, splintering and more schism.
 
I did indeed. Is this original definition of the phrase the one accepted by all Protestant faith traditions? If no, why not?
Because, AS I HAVE REPEATEDLY STATED, there was not one singular doctrinal disagreement which spurred Protestantism. It was multiple movements which were lumped by the Catholic Church!
I’m aware of the other schisms. That doesn’t mean the Catholic Church teaches different sets of doctrines. *Catholicism *doesn’t lead to chaos, fracturing, splintering and more schism, **people **that are dissident to her teachings lead to chaos, fracturing, splintering and more schism.
Sure it does. If Catholicism didn’t lead to fracturing then no one would have ever split from the Catholic Church. The fact that all schisms can trace themselves back to Catholicism shows that Catholicism is the force of the schism as it is the only thing that all schismatics have in common.
 
Because, AS I HAVE REPEATEDLY STATED, there was not one singular doctrinal disagreement which spurred Protestantism. It was multiple movements which were lumped by the Catholic Church!
What spurred the Reformation is one man’s lack of humility, pride and disobedience to the Church.
Sure it does. If Catholicism didn’t lead to fracturing then no one would have ever split from the Catholic Church. The fact that all schisms can trace themselves back to Catholicism shows that Catholicism is the force of the schism as it is the only thing that all schismatics have in common.
Sure it does not. What lead to the fracturing were men that thought they knew better than the Church founded by Jesus Christ.
 
What spurred the Reformation is one man’s lack of humility, pride and disobedience to the Church.
Really! So the English Reformation – which is part of the Protestant Reformation – was led by Luther? Calvin was a student of Luther? Zwillig was a student of Luther?
Sure it does not. What lead to the fracturing were men that thought they knew better than the Church founded by Jesus Christ.
I have to be careful how I say this so it doesn’t show contempt for the Catholic Church, but I’ll give it a shot anyway and take my lumps if it’s perceived as portraying something I do not intend.

The Catholic Church is, by definition, a group of men. The schismatics are, be definition, a group of men. The fractures were created by one group of men disagreing with another group of men.
 
The Catholic Church is, by definition, a group of men.
By whose definition? Certainly not the Church’s.

But back to the topic at hand: One poster objected to an offered definition of sola scriptura, a central bit of data to this thread. When asked what was an acceptable definition, no answer was provided. Thus, the question still stands: What is the acceptable definition of sola sciptura that ought to be addressed?

– Mark L. chance.
 
Really! So the English Reformation – which is part of the Protestant Reformation – was led by Luther? Calvin was a student of Luther? Zwillig was a student of Luther?
I’m not sure who was a student of whom. I do know that Luther is considered the father of Protestantism. If Luther hadn’t broken away, who knows if the Reformation would have happened?
I have to be careful how I say this so it doesn’t show contempt for the Catholic Church, but I’ll give it a shot anyway and take my lumps if it’s perceived as portraying something I do not intend.

The Catholic Church is, by definition, a group of men.
It’s more encompassing than that my friend. The Church is not *just *a group of men. The Church is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. The Catholic Church has the promise from Christ to be lead into all truth and that the gates of hell will never prevail against it.
The schismatics are, be definition, a group of men. The fractures were created by one group of men disagreing with another group of men.
The group of men defecting did not have the promise from Jesus Christ to be led into all truth and never have the gates of hell prevail against them as did the “group” they left.
 
By whose definition? Certainly not the Church’s.

But back to the topic at hand: One poster objected to an offered definition of sola scriptura, a central bit of data to this thread. When asked what was an acceptable definition, no answer was provided. Thus, the question still stands: What is the acceptable definition of sola sciptura that ought to be addressed?

– Mark L. chance.
I wonder why this is so difficult. SS seems to be a basic tenet, a linchpin, in discussion about the reformation. One would think this basic tenet has overwhelming support from the document it purports to be derived from but there is not even yet an agreed upon starting point.
 
I’m not sure who was a student of whom. I do know that Luther is considered the father of Protestantism. If Luther hadn’t broken away, who knows if the Reformation would have happened?
You can’t make guesses about what would have happened to history if a single event were changed.
It’s more encompassing than that my friend. The Church is not *just *a group of men. The Church is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. The Catholic Church has the promise from Christ to be lead into all truth and that the gates of hell will never prevail against it.
The group of men defecting did not have the promise from Jesus Christ to be led into all truth and never have the gates of hell prevail against them as did the “group” they left.
And, here is the crux of the issue, this is where all communication breaks down. You start throwing in Catholic theology as if it were a fact because to you it is. Then you say to anyone who doesn’t accept such theology as fact ah well you’re wrong. That is why Catholics and non-Catholics look at the same history and draw egregiously different conclusions.
 
You can’t make guesses about what would have happened to history if a single event were changed.
Why not? Anyway, I wasn’t making guesses.
And, here is the crux of the issue, this is where all communication breaks down. You start throwing in Catholic theology as if it were a fact because to you it is. Then you say to anyone who doesn’t accept such theology as fact ah well you’re wrong. That is why Catholics and non-Catholics look at the same history and draw egregiously different conclusions.
Yup. Taking it a step further; above the crux you mentioned is the crux all disagreements rest: authority. You and all protestants have no central authority. You are your own authority. Your own Pope, so to speak. You can say that Scripture is your sole authority, but it is your interpretation of scripture that is your authority.
 
Why not? Anyway, I wasn’t making guesses
Because the events that happened happened and no one knows how the world would have been different if the events happened differently.
Yup. Taking it a step further; above the crux you mentioned is the crux all disagreements rest: authority. You and all protestants have no central authority. You are your own authority. Your own Pope, so to speak. You can say that Scripture is your sole authority, but it is your interpretation of scripture that is your authority.
Nope! We have the Bible as our authority and you have the Pope as yours.
 
Nope! We have the Bible as our authority and you have the Pope as yours.
Uh, huh. You *have *the Bible *because *of the Catholic Church. Our authority is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, which is the pillar and bullwark of truth (1 Tim. 3:15), which has the promise to be guided into all truth (John 16:13) guided by the Holy Spirit(John 14:16,26; 16:13) and that the gates of hell will never prevail against it (Matt. 16:18).
 
Short and simple:

What you want a certain phrase to mean is pretty much irrelevant if that’s not what those who use it mean.
Therefore, that you seem determined to read a meaning into “Sola Scriptura” that it hasn’t got, is a problem with your reading and understanding of it. Not the doctrine itself.
So explain it to me then.

Do you really maintain that the bibe is the “only” authority and that there is an “other” authority at the same time? And that this is the definition of sola scriptura.

Other than being nonsensical use of the English language, how would this position differ from the Catholic position on the Bible vs. Church Authority?

Chuck
 
I would much appreciate it if someone one, (especially you who are n-Cs) would display and clarify for me just precisely where it is in the Word of God that it specifically states that everything that Christians believe and practice must be found within its pages.
Sorry Michael, I would appear we are not going to discuss anything like your opening question.

This is of course because the need to prove something from scripture is an extra biblical belief that cannot be proven explicitly from scripture and is therefore self refuting and “everybody” knows this to be the case.

Because this is true, we are forced to go down the path of trying to instead nuance the “it must be found in the bible” part out of any definition of “Sola Scriptura”.

If you try to define “Sola Scriptura” in such away that include anything like “it must be found in the bible” as part of the definition it instantly becomes self refuting:

Whether you define Sola Scriptura as:
“Only what is explicitly taught in the Bible” or
“Only what is explicitly or implicitly taught in the Bible” or
“Only what is explicitly or implicitly taught in the Bible in alignment with the interpretations of whatever Christian community I embrace” or
Some much longer version thereof.
you are not going to find anything approaching an “only the Bible” rule in scripture.

So while we are looking to show that Sola Scriptura is “Scriptural” we need to redefine it to mean something like: “Only what is not in conflict with the Bible and is in Alignment with the Apostolic Faith”

This is a definition that we can of course find implicitly in scripture. In fact this definition removes the burden to prove “Sola Scriptura” from scripture at all. We simply have to show that “only Scripture” is not in conflict with the bible and claim that we believe it to be an Apostolic teaching.

Now that we are done with that exercise, I can rightly claim that “Sola Scriptura” is scriptural.

Of course when the conversation moves on to any other extra biblical tradition it is important to remember that “Sola Scriptura”, which we have after all shown to be scriptural, means that “only what is explicitly taught in the Bible must be believed”.

It is Bill Clinton speak: “Well it depends on what you mean by only. When I say “only” I don’t really mean only what I mean is “mostly” or “primarily” or “nearly always” because we don’t have to find everything in the Bible, certainly we don’t have to show that the bible says we have to be able to show everything can be found in the bible, so “only scripture” really means “scripture and other things which are true.” So as you can see to say “only scripture is our authority” is correct even though what I really mean is that “only I am my own authority”. Oh wait did I say that out loud…where was I….oh yeah “I did not have sex with that woman.”

As soon as you include the words “Only” and “the Bible” in what ever definition you devise, no matter how wordy or well nuanced you try and make the qualifiers, you always end up in the same basic place, which is:

“Only whatever I believe the Bible means”

It boggles my mind that folks can claim to do otherwise.

Either they really don’t believe in “only” the bible as an authority or they don’t believe in another “authority”, you can’t have it both ways and claim any sense or rational thought.

Yet we see exactly this claim repeated over and over again.

Chuck
 
Uh, huh. You *have *the Bible *because *of the Catholic Church. Our authority is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, which is the pillar and bullwark of truth (1 Tim. 3:15), which has the promise to be guided into all truth (John 16:13) guided by the Holy Spirit(John 14:16,26; 16:13) and that the gates of hell will never prevail against it (Matt. 16:18).
Prove that every voting member at those counsels was a member of the Magisterium by providing a list of all voting members present at all three counsels.

Furthermore, since you stated (possibly in another thread) that it is valid to question what would have happened if certain people hadn’t been around, prove that if there had been no Catholic Church there would be no Bible.
 
Prove that every voting member at those counsels was a member of the Magisterium by providing a list of all voting members present at all three counsels.
Do you know what the Magisterium is and who comprises it? The answer to that question nullifies your request. Did they even take votes at the councils? I don’t know.
Furthermore, since you stated (possibly in another thread) that it is valid to question what would have happened if certain people hadn’t been around, prove that if there had been no Catholic Church there would be no Bible.
Where did I state that it is valid to question what would have happened if certain people hadn’t been around. Please provide the link to that exchange. I remember asking the rhetorical question, “Would the Reformation have happened if Martin Luther didn’t defect from the Catholic Church?” (paraphrasing) We all know we could never know the answer to that question; or to your request of me to “…prove that if there had been no Catholic Church there would be no Bible.”
 
Do you know what the Magisterium is and who comprises it? The answer to that question nullifies your request. Did they even take votes at the councils? I don’t know.
Then explain that instead of hiding behind magical hand waving!
Where did I state that it is valid to question what would have happened if certain people hadn’t been around. Please provide the link to that exchange. I remember asking the rhetorical question, “Would the Reformation have happened if Martin Luther didn’t defect from the Catholic Church?” (paraphrasing) We all know we could never know the answer to that question; or to your request of me to “…prove that if there had been no Catholic Church there would be no Bible.”
You can’t even remember what you said about if Martin Luther hadn’t lived earlier today?
 
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