It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

[Lampo]

Irrelevant! Unless, of course, you’d like to provide a document from 107 AD which states that the Pope is infallible.

It’s not irrelevant to know in this dialogue what the early Christian’s authority was in the year 107AD. Wouldn’t you think it’s the same authority as today? In the year 107 AD, the authority that said the Pope is infallible when teaching on matters of faith and morals *is *the same as it is today - the Church.

 

[Lampo]

Then explain that instead of hiding behind magical hand waving!

I don’t even know what that means.

You can’t even remember what you said about if Martin Luther hadn’t lived earlier today?

I think I just did in post #223. Where’s the link to the post where I said it is valid to question what would happen if Martin Luther didn’t defect from the Church. Please show me where I asked what would have happened if he hadn’t lived.

 

[rinnie]

I as a RC know everything’s not in the bible. We have Tradition and SS. But I do like to use that as my Protestant trump card.

I find myself doing it alot. Only to prove to them there is alot that they believe thats not in the bible.

I like how Paul Quotes Jesus saying It is more blessed to give then receive. Now if that ain’t oral Tradition it will harelip the Pope

But I like to say wheres that in the bible show me show me. But only because I know they can’t:shrug:

 

[ncgolf]

Nope! We have the Bible as our authority and you have the Pope as yours.

This really makes no sense if you sit down and look at.

The Bible sitting there has no authority and if unopened nothing to really offer. How does a book offer authority? It cannot … the same as the Constitution does not have authority or even written law have authority. The authority of written word comes from some body entrusted to intrepret the word and through a thought process come up with an understanding of what the authors truly meant and to pass on that understanding. For the Constitution we have the Supreme Court to render decisions on the author’s original intent … this is not to say those Supreme Court justices are always right but to illustrate the need for a consistent, trustworthy body to make those decisions.

So tell me then, how does one without a trustworthy body (Magesterium) make the authority of the Bible real in the world. If someone did not know Christ would you just give him the Bible and say read it and you will be fine. I doubt it … you would teach … give instruction … bring clarity … you would be that person’s guide … and if the person was smart at some point he should ask … why are you right and those others wrong?

I wonder what authority someone living in the year 80 was under? The Biblical canon had not yet been set and there was a good chance it had not all been written yet?

Is not authority an attribute of people?

 

[clmowry]

Nope! We have the Bible as our authority and you have the Pope as yours.

How does the Bible execute its authority over you?

Chuck

 

[rinnie]

If God wanted us to have the bible why didn’t he leave us the bible then.

Why did he say in Tim But as for you continue in what you have learned and firmly believed knowing from WHOM you learned it.

Why did Jesus tell the apostles to go find other faithful men who you can entrust to teach others also. 2 tim 2

Would that put the Pope as the teacher or the bible. Unless you can show me where the bible is a faithful men who can teach others. you got a big problem.

SO Catholics say the Pope is a faithful man who has been entrusted. I agree.

But until you can show me how a book can be a faithful man and teach you have failed.

 

[Ignatius]

Ignatius;5841428:

First of all, even Wikipedia states "most

protestants look at scripture alone and no other authority". And No, we should use the most widely held variant, ‘Bible Alone’ Sola Scriptura.

What you guys should really do is get together and come up with an Authoritative definition so that you can have unity in this Essential n-C doctrine.

wow, not even for debate will you agree on a defintion.

I had hoped…

I did give it to you. But, It is your doctrine. However, if you wish us to give you a standardized definition for your SS Doctrine, we can do that. Here it is:You should all use the most widely held variant, i.e. ‘Bible Alone’ Sola Scriptura’ as the sole basis for any and all Protestant teaching.

As I said before ‘you guys should really do is get together and come up with an Authoritative definition so that you can have unity in this Essential n-C doctrine’

 

[distracted]

Hmmm,things NCs believe that are not in the Bible. Lets see.

1. Evangelistic appeals.
2. VBS.
3. Youth groups and youth pastors.
4. Church picnics,
5. Praise bands.
6. Bible Colleges.
7. Short hair on men, long hair on women. ( I once knew a preacher who insisted Jesus had a crewcut)
   I’m sure there’s more, but I can’t think of any right now.
   Too much Chinese food for lunch.
   

VBS>???

 

[Lampo]

VBS>???

I know that one! Vacation Bible School

 

[Ignatius]

Posted by Ignatius

Hun? How’s that? You need to read my post again my friend (I’ve quoted my entire post above so you don’t have to go searching for it.).

Bible Alone Sola Scriptura is by far the most common understanding among all Protestant denominations.

Further, it is well documented as the standard understanding by the reformers.

BTW, brother, you should be aware that many, if not most, here are former protestants, some even pastors of vary large congregations!

 

[rinnie]

How does the Bible execute its authority over you?

Chuck

You know that’s something I will never understand. How can you read something, I read something, and ten other people read something and we can all be right.

I am told time after time by Protestants that they listen to the Holy Spirit. SO then I say okay, then how can there be more than One HS. They say what do you mean. I say if there is only one HS which we all agree on, how can the HS tell you one truth and me another. Are you saying the HS is who is to blame to divide us. Because in the RCC faith the HS is who guides us and unites us into the truth not separate us.

I usually never get a response to that:shrug:

 

[Lampo]

You know that’s something I will never understand. How can you read something, I read something, and ten other people read something and we can all be right.

I am told time after time by Protestants that they listen to the Holy Spirit. SO then I say okay, then how can there be more than One HS. They say what do you mean. I say if there is only one HS which we all agree on, how can the HS tell you one truth and me another. Are you saying the HS is who is to blame to divide us. Because in the RCC faith the HS is who guides us and unites us into the truth not separate us.

I usually never get a response to that:shrug:

I like that a lot.

 

[LutheranDK]

So explain it to me then.

Do you really maintain that the bibe is the “only” authority and that there is an “other” authority at the same time? And that this is the definition of sola scriptura.

Other than being nonsensical use of the English language, how would this position differ from the Catholic position on the Bible vs. Church Authority?

Chuck

I maintain no such thing.
I maintain that the Bible is the sole INFALLIBLE authority, to which all other authority is subordinate.

Sola Scriptura means that the Bible alone is the SUPREME canon of faith. There are other authorities. I, for instance, consider my pastor an authority, but his words should be measured against the Scriptures. If they collide, he is the one who’s in error.

 

[AmateurPianist]

I would much appreciate it if someone one, (especially you who are n-Cs) would display and clarify for me just precisely where it is in the Word of God that it specifically states that everything that Christians believe and practice must be found within its pages.

Well I am a Protestant n-C who believes in Sola Scriptura (at least some definitions anyway) and I do not believe this either.

 

[clmowry]

I maintain no such thing.

I maintain that the Bible is the sole INFALLIBLE authority, to which all other authority is subordinate.

Sola Scriptura means that the Bible alone is the SUPREME canon of faith. There are other authorities. I, for instance, consider my pastor an authority, but his words should be measured against the Scriptures. If they collide, he is the one who’s in error.

Ok

I can certainly understand a hierarchy of authority.

Scripture is the Inerrant Word of God, and as such the Pope cannot propose for belief anything that is in conflict with a correct interpretation of scripture, and to that degree one could say the Pope, just like all Christians, is “subordinate” to Scripture.

In any case, the Pope has “authority” over the whole Church, my local Bishop has “authority” over the diocese and my local Priest has “authority” over our parish and I have “authority” over my household.

We are all “authorities” but when it comes to expounding on the doctrines of Christian faith and morals our empowerment limits are dramatically different.

Until we define those empowerment limits, to say to you “I have authority” doesn’t really mean much of anything.

So if you could be so kind as to please continue and translate for me.

How does the bible actually exercise its “sole infallible authority”?

What does “SUPREME cannon of faith” mean in practical terms?

1.) Christians must believe only what is explicitly taught in the bible?
2.) Christians must believe only what is explicitly or implicitly taught in the bible?
3.) Christians must believe only what is explicitly or implicitly taught in the bible and is not in conflict with my other authorities?
4.) Christians must believe only what is taught by my other authorities and is not in conflict with the bible?
5.) Something else all together?

If all other “authority” is subordinate to the “sole INFALLIBLE authority” of the bible then what are the empowerment limits of the other authorities? Do they have any power at all with regards to illuminating Christian faith and morals?

Chuck

 

[mlchance]

I maintain that the Bible is the sole INFALLIBLE authority, to which all other authority is subordinate.

Interesting. So, where is that found in Scripture?

Regarding your pastor as an authority: If you think he disagrees with Scripture, where is the court of appeal that determines whether the true error lies with him or with you?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Church_Militant]

I maintain no such thing.
I maintain that the Bible is the sole INFALLIBLE authority, to which all other authority is subordinate.

If that is true then I would like to see the Biblical passages that lay claim to that authority. Please show me.

Sola Scriptura means that the Bible alone is the SUPREME canon of faith.

There are other authorities. I, for instance, consider my pastor an authority, but his words should be measured against the Scriptures. If they collide, he is the one who’s in error.Since this belief requires that any such belief has its basis in the Bible, I would like to see the scriptures where that is taught.

And who is the authority that decides when that happens and where do they derive their authority from?

 

[Church_Militant]

Well I am a Protestant n-C who believes in Sola Scriptura (at least some definitions anyway) and I do not believe this either.

Interesting. Thank you for contributing to the discussion.

Can you offer a definition of SS that you accept and possibly explain where the scriptures teach it?

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Interesting. [SIGN]So, where is that found in Scripture?[/SIGN]
Regarding your pastor as an authority: If you think he disagrees with Scripture, where is the court of appeal that determines whether the true error lies with him or with you?

– Mark L. Chance.

Story of my life. I can show you where its not found. But that don’t count I guess.

 

[DerekD]

What we disagree on is your definition of “definitive scriptural proof”

what it really comes down to: is that you don’t accept theses verses

1 Cor 4:6
6Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

Luke 1:1-4:
1Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

In Matthew 4:1-11. Three times Jesus was tempted by the Devil and each time Jesus replied exactly the same three dangerous words that defeated the Devil: “IT IS WRITTEN” If any one could have used oral tradition, it was Jesus, yet he chose the only safe and sure way to defeat Satan: Scripture.

Mark 12:24
24Jesus replied, "**Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures **or the power of God?

2 Timothy 3:15
15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Yes, it can be understood by children

1 John 5:13
13 **I write these things **to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

2 Timothy 3:16-17:
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
No matter how you twist it, it still says that scripture alone is all-sufficient to equip us for EVERY good work*

Luke 10:26
What is written in the Law?" he replied. “How do you read it?”

Jesus expected even his enemies to correctly interpret the Bible by simply reading and studying it.

Acts 17:11-12
11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

Even though the apostles were inspired with genuine oral revelation, they always directed people to the scriptures for the final determination of truth.

Deuteronomy 4:2
Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.

Etc etc

bible.ca/sola-scriptura-proof-texts.htm

Well done and it still comes to me logically that if anyone truly has accepted the Word of God as inspired and inerrant, then what other source of “special” divine revelation is there? Anything else outside of those bounds must show divine authority and one would always have to come to the one true authority to prove it.

But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. - Matthew 4:4

Where is the mouth of God spoken? Only one place other than creation, the Bible through inspired men and without error.