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Lampo
Guest
Excellent question.
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Lampo
Guest
You are appealing to a Catholic Saint, a Doctor of the Church to support the false doctrine of sola scriptura? Saint Augustine also said:
“The Catholic Church is the work of Divine Providence, achieved through the prophecies of the prophets, through the Incarnation and the teaching of Christ, through the journeys of the Apostles, through the suffering, the crosses, the blood and the death of the martyrs, through the admirable lives of the saints. When, then, we see so much help on God’s part, so much progress and so much fruit, shall we hesitate to bury ourselves in the bosom of that Church? For starting from the Apostolic Chair down through successions of bishops, even unto the open confession of all mankind, it has possessed the crown of teaching authority.”
- St. Augustine, The Advantage of Believing, 391 A.D.
St. Augustine, Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D.
“These traditions of the Christian name, therefore, so numerous, so powerful, and most dear, justly keep a believing man in the Catholic Church.”
-St. Augustine, 5th Century
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RedBert
Guest
IF there was a conflict between Scripture and Tradition( or church teachings): what would need to be changed?
(Edited to remove off topic comment.).
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Lampo
Guest
It is impossible for Scripture to conflict with Tradition and vice versa because the Holy Spirit is the source of both.
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nuntym
Guest
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Bingo! You are in precisely the same position as the Thessalonians who rejected Paul’s preaching of the gospel because they could not “see” Jesus being crucified in the scriptures.
Acts 17
**In Thessalonica **
1When they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. 2As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3explaining and proving that the Christa] had to suffer and rise from the dead. "This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Christ,**("http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+17&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27514b")]" he said. 4Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and not a few prominent women.
5But the Jews were jealous; so they rounded up some bad characters from the marketplace, formed a mob and started a riot in the city.
13When the Jews in Thessalonica learned that Paul was preaching the word of God at Berea, they went there too, agitating the crowds and stirring them up.
Many. I believe some are attending your church even now.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Oops.
This should read: “Tradition cannot conflict”, and I have requested that a mod edit my post.
Thanks for catching that.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Since the Bible does not teach justification by Faith Alone, I think we already know the answer to your question.
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Des
Guest
We also claim the Authority of Scriptures are substantiated in Tradition. You make it sound we are taking one over the other when it’s really a matter of talking to you in the only language ss believers will listen to.
The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should, though from the slowness of our understanding, or the small attainment of our life, the truth may not yet fully disclose itself. But with you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me, the promise of truth is the only thing that comes into play. Now if the truth is so clearly proved as to leave no possibility of doubt, it must be set before all the things that keep me in the Catholic Church; but if there is only a promise without any fulfillment, no one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion. Augustine [A.D. 354-430]
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clmowry
Guest
I’m not creating a straw man, I’m responding to someone who offered verses they feel “prove” Sola Scriptura (whatever definition they might be using) from Scripture.
That person claimed that Scripture says that Scripture is “above” the Church and Tradition.
The verses they offer do not say this or anything like it.
It’s not my “straw man” it’s their position.
If you don’t like their claim, then take it up with them.
Chuck
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clmowry
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RedBert
Guest
I strongly disagree with that statementSince the** Bible does not teach justification by Faith Alone, **I think we already know the answer to your question.
“…said the Pope, it was indeed Biblical to say, as did Luther, that it was the faith of a Christian, not his works that saved him.”
According to a recent Christian Today article, one of Pope Benedict XVI’s latest weekly public addresses in St. Peter’s Square may have been surprising to some as he quoted Martin Luther in declaring “Sola fide,” that salvation is by faith alone. (Photo: Wikipedia)Writes Jeff Fountain, in his report: “Disagreement over this doctrine had been at the heart of the Reformation in the 16th century, splitting Christianity in Western Europe. Yet, said the Pope, it was indeed Biblical to say, as did Luther, that it was the faith of a Christian, not his works that saved him.”
By defining “faith” as “identification with Christ expressed in love for God and neighbor,” Pope Benedict qualified his statement, noting that the Apostle Paul had written about such faith in his letters, especially the one to the Philippians.
According to Fountain, the Pope highlighted the fact that prior to his Damascus Road conversion, Paul had strictly adhered to all the Pharisaical laws and rules.
However, after meeting the Lord Jesus in his vision, Paul began leading a lifestyle of faith alone. Pope Benedict reportedly stated that Luther was correct in translating the Apostle Paul’s words as “justified by faith alone” or “sola fide” in the Latin
breakingchristiannews.com/articles/display_art.html?ID=6341
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; 9 Not of works, that no man may glory.
Romans 3:28: “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
Galatians 3:8: “The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith…”
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MonFrere
Guest
ABSOLUTELY!! WITHOUT SCRIPTURE (a canon) the Church would still have the gospels in their record - they would still have the epistles of St. Paul - St, John - St. James - St. Jude - as well as the writings of the Early Church Fathers - the Didache - and the wealth of information left by historians both in and out of the ecclesial community. ALL THAT’S NECESSARY is the authority of the Catholic Church.
Protestants have IMO an inordinate fear of Church authority making the individual conscience the seat of Christian authority. Yet, the very book Protestants revere tells them that the individual conscience is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Yet, Protestants seem to be saying that in spite of his “little problem” the individual conscience can read the scripture and just naturally get the proper sense of the scriptures. It’s better to take a chance in the individual Christian to understand the Bible than to seriously take Jesus at His word where He gives His Church authority and guidance to judge difficult matters. Was this individual freedom given to the people of God in the Old Testament. NO – there was a system of judges in place that was a system or hierarchy where lower matters were always moved up to courts of greater and greater authority. Private autonomy was one of the dumbest ideas to come out of the Reformation. It was certainly not part of Biblical precedent.
MonFrere
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JustaServant
Guest
Authority is what it is all about.
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RedBert
Guest
has the RCC ever changed / revised / clarified a doctrine or tradition based on a better or more complete understanding of scripture?
Ever?
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MonFrere
Guest
We can do better than that … St. Peter allowed for Gentile converts, an incredible idea to a first century Jew, based upon A DREAM! Maybe the scripture that states this is trying to tell us something its (scriptures) own necessity.
MonFrere
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RedBert
Guest
since 500AD , since 1517 ?
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KEVIN_WILCOX
Guest
Obedience is what it is all about.
Trying to gain authority is the problem.
So I guess in a way, authority is what this is all about
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KEVIN_WILCOX
Guest
Clarification of doctrine and tradition is part of our journey of Faith!
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Philthy
Guest
Hi Red!
The short answer is that yes, absolutely, certain teachings have developed. The two that come to mind are the Trinity and the Nature of Christ (hypostatic union). I’m not sure that I would describe those developments solely as the result of “a better or more complete understanding of Scripture”, however. Reason and logic combined with established Truth also contribute to the development of doctrine. It is primarily the guidance of the Holy Spirit which leads the Church into “all truth”. The Church existed and was teaching doctrine based upon the oral and written Tradition of the Church together with the guidance of the Holy Spirit for HUNDREDS of years prior to the compilation of the Bible. The guidance of the Holy Spirit enabled the Church to present the Gospel (and many of its applications to life) while simultaneously being prevented from teaching anything regarding faith/morals that would be in conflict with Christ’s teaching. That same Spirit continues.
Another big issue came to mind also - the Canon of Scripture. That was a teaching that developed with time, but which was arrived at independent of Scripture.
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