It's NOT in the Bible, okay?

[JacobG]

Quoted from Philthy;5960308

Yes, I know - the Catholic Church accomplished this “gathering and enclosing”. What’s your point?

The RCC accomplished this gathering and enclosing?? Are you serious?! The RCC did not decide canonicity. You really need to do the research and not mere mimic what someone told you. All the scriptures that comprise the NT were already written and made available by the apostles and other NT writers before the RCC ever existed. Although the RCC declares the scriptures were officially canonized at the Council of Hippo in 390 AD, there are some problems with this.

First, who ever said the Council of Hippo was a Roman Catholic council. It consisted only of North African pastors. Rome had nothing to do with it.

Secondly, in the proceedings of the Council of Hippo, the bishops did not once mention in their proceedings that they were “officially” declaring the canon for the RCC and the world. That official declaration was made at the Council of Trent which was around 1545. Yet, Athanasius, a bishop, mentions well before this all the books of the NT. How did he know what books were inspired?

315-386. Cyril, bishop at Jerusalem, gives a list of all New Testament books except Revelation.

1. Eusebius, bishop at Caesarea, called the Father of ecclesiastical history, gives an account of the persecution of Emperor Diocletian whose edict required that all churches be destroyed and the Scriptures burned. He lists all the books of the New Testament. He was commissioned by Constantine to have transcribed fifty copies of the Bible for use of the churches of Constantinople.

185-254. Origen, born at Alexandria, names all the books of both the Old and New Testaments.

165-220. Clement, of Alexandria, names all the books of the New Testament except Philemon, James, 2 Peter and 3 John. In addition we are told by Eusebius, who had the works of Clement, that he gave explanations and quotations from all the canonical books.

160-240. Turtullian, contemporary of Origen and Clement, mentions all the New Testament books except 2 Peter, James and 2 John.

135-200. Irenaeus, quoted from all New Testament books except Philemon, Jude, James and 3 John.

100-147 AD Justin Martyr, mentions the Gospels as being four in number and quotes from them and some of the epistles of Paul and Revelation.

 

[JacobG]

Philthy,

I asked you what apostle ever said any oral teachings were passed on as “tradition” **apart **from what we have in the written word? Your answer was:

Paul

Where did Paul say this? Its simple to just make statements, but its futile to proceed if you cite no references.

When I wrote that Paul never passed on the authority to men to write tradition. You responded:

Of course not, he never even claimed to have the authority to write it himself. What’s your point?

Again you just give your opinion, nothing to back it up.

Its funny how you argue that I don’t answer your questions and then qualify my answers, when you can’t even live up to your own argument….

Do you believe (the Apostles) were infallible in proclaiming and writing the Gospel, YES OR NO PLEASE. If your answer is yes, please state where the Apostles each acknowledge that their written Gospels and letters are, in fact, Scripture which God has infallibly guided them to write

.

Yes, because they wrote under the authority of the Holy Spirit.

Read Ephesians 3:1-7. Paul wrote that God had, through revelation, made known to him the mystery of Christ which previously was unknown, but had now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit. What Paul thus wrote came directly from God, the Holy Spirit.

Paul’s writings are inspired and authoritative in matters where he goes beyond that revealed by the other apostles, through whom God also revealed Scripture. While each author of a book in the Bible must be consistent with previous revelation, each one also makes a unique contribution to the Bible as a whole. Because there was progressive revelation, we expect later inspired writings to go beyond that revealed by earlier writers. There is a world of difference between going against previous Scripture and going beyond it. **Paul’s writings are completely consistent with the Old Testament Scriptures and with the New Testament Scriptures, but Paul was also privileged to reveal things which were not clear until this point in time.
**
Please explain to me how writers throughout the entire Bible who lived in different times and did not know one another could accomplish such harmony?

Can you please show me a book or a list of all of your church’s Traditions? Where is it written down so one can check it? Where do we see the paper trail that it came straight from the apostles?

 

[RedBert]

An what qualifies you to do so and is there any assurance at all that your teaching is without error? Your response to this will be interesting

My views on doctrine, salvation, etc are widely know through lay speaking , personnel testimonies small group studies, committees, etc.
My spiritual gifts are teaching and discernment,
i test all things in scripture.
i love the word of God more than the finest gold.
i tithe
I preach at our church and others
i listen to Christian talk radio
i read the Bible constantly
i read commentaries
I serve others outside church
I seek God
i seek to be wow-ed
people see how may life is being changed by God
I seek out opposing views, whether here, or Jews for Judaism , or Religion hating science sites. sites (iron sharpens iron)
I am here at this site to strengthen my beliefs
I admit when I don’t know or am wrong
I have been told that the parents trust my teaching of their children
parents “make” their kids come to class because I am teaching it
I am in charge of the largest adult Sunday school class in our church(i teach that in a rotation)
I keep learning
I am a saint ( as in Biblically ALL believers are)
i am a priest ( as in Biblically the “priesthood of belivers”)
i am NOT required to be perfect: but all ARE required to test ALL things in Scripture.

I have Relationship with Christ: i am in Christ and He is me:
I have Assurance of Heaven.

and yet I really don’t do any of this at all, but it is God working through me , using me to share His Truth.

 

[qui_est_ce]

My views on doctrine, salvation, etc are widely know through lay speaking , personnel testimonies small group studies, committees, etc.
My spiritual gifts are teaching and discernment,

and yet I really don’t do any of this at all, but it is God working through me , using me to share His Truth.

Is the Holy Spirit schizophrenic?

Why do my studied readings of the Bible, personal testimonies, relationship with Jesus, teach me that Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist, and you do not?

Why do my studied readings of the Bible, personal testimonies, relationship with Jesus, teach me that Jesus told Peter that he was Rock, and upon this Rock (Kephas) he would build his Church? That this Church would be protected from the gates of Hell (error) by the Advocate, the Holy Spirit?

Why do my studied readings of the Bible, personal testimonies, relationship with Jesus, teach me that yet the Church really doesn’t do any of this at all, but it is God working through the Church , using her to share His Truth.

 

[twb1621]

My views on doctrine, salvation, etc are widely know through lay speaking , personnel testimonies small group studies, committees, etc.
My spiritual gifts are teaching and discernment,
i test all things in scripture.
i love the word of God more than the finest gold.
i tithe
I preach at our church and others
i listen to Christian talk radio
i read the Bible constantly
i read commentaries
I serve others outside church
I seek God
i seek to be wow-ed
people see how may life is being changed by God
I seek out opposing views, whether here, or Jews for Judaism , or Religion hating science sites. sites (iron sharpens iron)
I am here at this site to strengthen my beliefs
I admit when I don’t know or am wrong
I have been told that the parents trust my teaching of their children
parents “make” their kids come to class because I am teaching it
I am in charge of the largest adult Sunday school class in our church(i teach that in a rotation)
I keep learning
I am a saint ( as in Biblically ALL believers are)
i am a priest ( as in Biblically the “priesthood of belivers”)
i am NOT required to be perfect: but all ARE required to test ALL things in Scripture.

I have Relationship with Christ: i am in Christ and He is me:
I have Assurance of Heaven.

and yet I really don’t do any of this at all, but it is God working through me , using me to share His Truth.

“Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector.
*The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity greedy, dishonest, adulterous or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” *Gospel (Lk 18:9-14)

**You say what your gifts are but it is not for a person to tell others what he or she has been gifted with by the Holy Spirit, but rather for others to recognize in that person he or she has been gifted. One is pride, the other humility. Satan is not a fool and has deceived many into self-righteousness. **

 

[qui_est_ce]

Historical evidence:

The Holy Scripture of the New Testament was declared inerrant by and as a result of the Decree of Pope St. Damasus 1 at the Council of Rome in 382 A.D.

The Decree of Pope St. Damasus I, Council of Rome. 382 A.D…

ST. DAMASUS 1, POPE, THE DECREE OF DAMASUS:
***It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun. ***
***The list of the Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy, one to Titus one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews. Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book. Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament. ***
Likewise it is decreed: After the announcement of all of these prophetic and evangelic or as well as apostolic writings which we have listed above as Scriptures, on which, by the grace of God, the Catholic Church is founded, we have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

The Council of Hippo in 393 reaffirmed the canon put forth by Pope Damasus I…AD 393: Council of Hippo. “It has been decided that besides the canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture.” (canon 36).

The Third Council of Carthage reaffirmed anew, the Canon put forth by Pope Damasus I…

***AD 397: ***
Council of Carthage III. “It has been decided that nothing except the canonical Scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine Scriptures.” (canon 47 A.D. 397).

Your servant in Christ.

The RCC accomplished this gathering and enclosing?? Are you serious?! The RCC did not decide canonicity. You really need to do the research and not mere mimic what someone told you. All the scriptures that comprise the NT were already written and made available by the apostles and other NT writers before the RCC ever existed. Although the RCC declares the scriptures were officially canonized at the Council of Hippo in 390 AD, there are some problems with this.

First, who ever said the Council of Hippo was a Roman Catholic council. It consisted only of North African pastors. Rome had nothing to do with it.

.

Dear Jacob,

Please address Ignatius’ post.

To which Church did the Pastors belong? To which Church did Pope St. Damasius I belong? To which Church did St. Augustine belong when he said "“I would not believe the Gospel unless moved thereto by the Church.”

• St. Augustine of Hippo

Who told St Jerome which books to put in the Bible? Which books made up the Canon of the Bible until 1520?

To which Church did Martin Luther refer when he wrote, "Accordingly, we concede to the papacy that they sit in the true Church, possessing the office instituted by Christ and inherited from the apostles, to teach, baptize, administer the sacrament, absolve, ordain, etc., "

To which Church did Martin Luther refer when he wrote:
“We concede – as we must – that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scriptures, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?”

I do not consider honest research “mimicking.” Please do the research yourself and refute the Church’s position with facts and links.

Please cite your sources. The link you provided is not historically accurate.

 

[twb1621]

RED BERT;
Post #736
Yes I am qualified to teach the Bible.

The principle that you are questioning are so very basic, like context, history and culture. Do you need a stamp of approval on everything?

Since the Bible is not one book, but a library of books, there are many different kinds of writing in these books, e.g., prose, proverbs, parables, prophesy, prayers, poetry, (narrative hymns), legends, legal documents, letters, sermons, songs, stories, etc. This is called Literary Form.

*In order to be able to understand a passage of the Bible one must be aware of: *

*In what form it was written, e.g., prose, poetry, history, etc. (Literary Form) *
*Why it was written. *
*When it was written. *
*What is the whole book about? *
*What is the meaning of each word? *
*How does it fit in with other parts of the Bible on the same subject? *
*The Old Testament is organized under three major headings: *
*The Law - this is the first in importance and consists of the first five books. *
*The Prophets - this consists of the preaching attributed to the prophets and their writings and the Books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings. *
*The Writings - this consists of the remainder of the Old Testament. *
*The Bible is God’s gift to us. The Bible is God’s love letter to His people. It was written over many centuries and contains different kinds of writing. We all need help to interpret what is being said in the different books. The Catholic Church offers that help. *

Now how many of these individual fields of study do you hold a masters degree in to be able to judge yourself more knowledgeable than 2000 years of translations and interpretations as determined by numerous scholars’ of their various fields of study?

“My guess is that many Catholics simply don’t want to do the work. They are content to let Mother Church spoon-feed them. (They want to remain “babes in Christ” who drink “milk,” as Paul says.)”

I ask you please provide your credible interpretation of the following verses and the accompanying questions;

Recorded history proves the origin and lineage of the Catholic Church from the establishment laid by Jesus through His apostles and their successors. The Apostles continued the growth and establishment of the Church through the assignment of their successors and the formation of the hierarchy. These are the very same Faithful followers who came to be know as “Christians” in Antioch and a short time later recognized as the “universal” or “Catholic Church”. Through the Gospel Jesus proclaims the Church He founded will never fall but He also clearly warned there would be corrupt men (wolves) who would violate her and deceive others. That those corrupt would cause many to follow the wrong path by distorting His word not only from outside His Church but from within at times. Many of these prophesies we have seen including the corruption outside as well as those who deceived with His word from within the Church such as Martin Luther. There are many verses in Gospel that point all these violations against His Church out. It is also proclaimed that the Church WILL be of one God and One Faith and nowhere in scripture does it say derivatives with there own beliefs will be acceptable. It is specific to only one Faith and one God. The following verses are some of those attesting to these prophecies and proclamations;

**Latin Vulgate **

**Jesus said, **
**Mat. Ch16; 15-19 “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” **

Matthew CH28; 19*** Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. ***

---

continued next post…

 

[twb1621]

continued from previous post;

John CH16; 12*** I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you. 14 He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it to you. 15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you. ***

1 Timothy CH3; 13*** For they that have ministered well, shall purchase to themselves a good degree, and much confidence in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 14 These things I write to thee, hoping that I shall come to thee shortly. 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth*. **

Luke CH10; 16*** He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me. ***

John CH17; 18*** As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. 20 And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me; 21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. ***

1 Corinthians CH1; 6*** As the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 So that nothing is wanting to you in any grace, waiting for the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 8 Who also will confirm you unto the end without crime, in the day of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful: by whom you are called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment. ***

Luke CH22; 31 “And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you all as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.”

Jesus said:
“…I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I will lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.” (Jn 10:14-16)

Matthew CH24; 4 “And Jesus answering, said to them: Take heed that no man seduce you: 5 For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many. 6 And you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that ye be not troubled. For these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be pestilences, and famines, and earthquakes in places: 8 Now all these are the beginnings of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then shall many be scandalized: and shall betray one another: and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many. 12 And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold. 13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.”

Acts Ch20; 28 “Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”

continued next post…

 

[twb1621]

continued from previous post;

Ephesians CH4; 1 “I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, 2 With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. 3 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 One body (the Church) and one Spirit (Holy Spirit); as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

Colossians CH1; 18*** “And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy: *19 Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father, that all fullness should dwell; 20 And through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven. 21 And you, whereas you were some time alienated and enemies in mind in evil works: 22 Yet now he hath reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unspotted, and blameless before him: 23 If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven, whereof I Paul am made a minister. 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church.”

continued…

 

[twb1621]

final;

RED BERT;
Post #736
Yes I am qualified to teach the Bible.

The principle that you are questioning are so very basic, like context, history and culture. Do you need a stamp of approval on everything?

“My guess is that many Catholics simply don’t want to do the work. They are content to let Mother Church spoon-feed them. (They want to remain “babes in Christ” who drink “milk,” as Paul says.)”

Matthew CH16; v18
Codex

18****κἀ.γὼ δέ σοι λέ.γω ὅ.τι σὺ εἶ Πέτ.ρος, καὶ ἐ.πὶ ταύ.τῃ τῇ πέτ.ρᾳ οἰ.κο.δο.μή.σω μου τὴν ἐκ.κλη.σί.αν, καὶ πύ.λαι ᾅ.δου οὐ κα.τισ.χύ.σου.σιν αὐ.τῆς.

18And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew CH28; v19-20

19πο.ρευ.θέν.τες μα.θη.τεύ.σα.τε πάν.τα τὰ ἔθ.νη, βαπ.τί.ζον.τες αὐ.τοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄ.νο.μα τοῦ πατ.ρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱ.οῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁ.γί.ου πνεύ.μα.τος 20δι.δάσ.κον.τες αὐ.τοὺς τη.ρεῖν πάν.τα ὅ.σα ἐ.νε.τει.λά.μην ὑ.μῖν. καὶ ἰ.δοὺ ἐ.γὼ μεθ’ ὑ.μῶν εἰ.μι πά.σας τὰς ἡ.μέ.ρας ἕ.ως τῆς συν.τε.λεί.ας τοῦ αἰ.ῶ.νος.

19Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.

a particular offense of a very insulting nature has been made against the Son of God by many who deceivingly “teach” others while in the process insinuating His word has no strength. “Teachers” who have in their ignorance keenly but discretely implied a weakness on His part to be capable of remaining committed to His proclamations as the Head, teacher and prophet of His church fully able to embrace her devotion while capable of purging Her of the corrupt as and when and how He deems necessary. Just as He loved the apostles even though Judas dwelled among them.

Yet in defiance of His warning that deceivers and corruption would occur and of His awareness of such, His warnings were ignored and many followed the wolves regardless. These mere man wolves have through self-proclamation claimed they have the prophecy or teaching to be devoutly accepted by all, over and above the prophecies made by the Son of God through the power of the Father in Heaven Himself. And yet many have accepted their claims over the warnings and covenant of Christ.
There was no point of which Christ’s prophecies or covenant left off for any man to pick up and proceed with like a baton in a relay race.

Who so rightly questions the commitment and ability of our Lord to oversee His Church and so love her in her devotion and purge her of her corruption as appropriate to Him? Does man know better than God and isn’t the existence of so many “Christian” faiths a testament to just that?

Where in Scripture does it say the Church Jesus founded would end, become corrupt and fail or be reestablished at any time or by any man before His return. Just the opposite is the truth. God proclaims through scripture everything but these things will occur. Yet many have been mislead into accepting the personal beliefs and disbeliefs of individual men and women who did not have the faith or knowledge to accept the complete teachings of our Lord, establishing their own distorted faith through individual interpretations. For those with doubts, If in fact the Catholic Church was not the true Church as some other “Christian” faiths were led to believe, one would have to know which Faith was the True Faith. After all, there must be one (and only one) because the Bible testifies to it and to the fact it must be visible, obvious, and is of only “one God, one Faith, one body and one Baptism”… So which one has been established by Jesus through the Apostles and their successors and has maintained consistency since His crucifixion without interruption as Jesus proclaimed AND has all the Characteristics to identify it Biblically?

Only the Catholic Church.

And you criticized Catholics for not wanting to do the work.

 

[qui_est_ce]

final;

Matthew CH16; v18
Codex

18****κἀ.γὼ δέ σοι λέ.γω ὅ.τι σὺ εἶ Πέτ.ρος, καὶ ἐ.πὶ ταύ.τῃ τῇ πέτ.ρᾳ οἰ.κο.δο.μή.σω μου τὴν ἐκ.κλη.σί.αν, καὶ πύ.λαι ᾅ.δου οὐ κα.τισ.χύ.σου.σιν αὐ.τῆς.

18And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew CH28; v19-20

19πο.ρευ.θέν.τες μα.θη.τεύ.σα.τε πάν.τα τὰ ἔθ.νη, βαπ.τί.ζον.τες αὐ.τοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄ.νο.μα τοῦ πατ.ρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱ.οῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁ.γί.ου πνεύ.μα.τος 20δι.δάσ.κον.τες αὐ.τοὺς τη.ρεῖν πάν.τα ὅ.σα ἐ.νε.τει.λά.μην ὑ.μῖν. καὶ ἰ.δοὺ ἐ.γὼ μεθ’ ὑ.μῶν εἰ.μι πά.σας τὰς ἡ.μέ.ρας ἕ.ως τῆς συν.τε.λεί.ας τοῦ αἰ.ῶ.νος.

19Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.

And you criticized Catholics for not wanting to do the work.

Stop mimicking the facts!

 

[atman]

Simple:

Deuteronomy 4:2 reads “You shall not add to the word that I speak to you, neither shall you take away from it: keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.”

And Revelation 22:18-19 reads “For I testify to every one that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add to these things, God shall add unto him the plagues written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from these things that are written in this book.”

I’m a Catholic, by the way, but I also believe in the material sufficiency of Scripture. If it’s good enough for Thomas, then it’s good enough for me:

Objection 1. It would seem that it is unsuitable for the articles of faith to be embodied in a symbol. Because Holy Writ is the rule of faith, to which no addition or subtraction can lawfully be made, since it is written (Deuteronomy 4:2): “You shall not add to the word that I speak to you, neither shall you take away from it.” Therefore it was unlawful to make a symbol as a rule of faith, after the Holy Writ had once been published.

…

Reply to Objection 1. The truth of faith is contained in Holy Writ, diffusely, under various modes of expression, and sometimes obscurely, so that, in order to gather the truth of faith from Holy Writ, one needs long study and practice, which are unattainable by all those who require to know the truth of faith, many of whom have no time for study, being busy with other affairs. And so it was necessary to gather together a clear summary from the sayings of Holy Writ, to be proposed to the belief of all. This indeed was no addition to Holy Writ, but something taken from it.

Summa Theo., II-II:1:9​

 

[qui_est_ce]

I’m a Catholic, by the way, but I also believe in the material sufficiency of Scripture. If it’s good enough for Thomas, then it’s good enough for me:

So you use a source outside of Scriptures as proof of the sufficiency of Scripture?

Nowhere does St. Thomas write ALL TRUTH IS CONTAINED IN SCRIPTURE ALONE.

Reply to Objection 1. The truth of faith is contained in Holy Writ, d**iffusely, under various modes of expression, and sometimes obscurely, so that, in order to gather the truth of faith from Holy Writ, one needs long study and practice, which are unattainable by all those who require to know the truth of faith, **many of whom have no time for study, being busy with other affairs. And so it was necessary to gather together a clear summary from the sayings of Holy Writ, to be proposed to the belief of all. This indeed was no addition to Holy Writ, but something taken from it.

He seems, in fact, to be saying there needs to be an Authority to help those who, for various reasons, are unable to understand Holy Scripture.

 

[atman]

So you use a source outside of Scriptures as proof of the sufficiency of Scripture?

I was not trying to “prove” the sufficiency of Scripture from a source exterior to Scripture, per se. St. Thomas Aquinas, as a Doctor of the Church, taught nothing contrary to faith or morals. As he taught the material sufficiency of Scripture, that cannot be contrary to faith or morals. I was merely defending my right to maintain the material sufficiency of Scripture via St. Thomas, not to prove it outright from him.

Nowhere does St. Thomas write ALL TRUTH IS CONTAINED IN SCRIPTURE ALONE.
He seems, in fact, to be saying there needs to be an Authority to help those who, for various reasons, are unable to understand Holy Scripture.

I’m sorry I did not make my position clearer. I believe (just as Pope Benedict XVI does) that Scripture is materially sufficient for a knowledge of the faith, materially but not formally. The truth of Holy Writ is not self-evident, and it needs the Catholic Church as an authoritative interpreter. As St. Thomas puts it, “the truth [not a part of the truth or a degree of the truth] of faith is contained within Holy Writ,” yet “diffusely, under various modes of expression, and sometimes obscurely.” To derive this truth from Scripture, therefore, “it was necessary to gather together a clear summary from the sayings of Holy Writ, to be proposed to the belief of all. This indeed was no addition to Holy Writ, but something taken from it.” That final sentence is the clincher: St. Thomas does not think we’ve added anything to Scripture by giving it an expression in a symbol. Why make a big fuss about not adding to Scripture if you don’t think it is materially sufficient?

I don’t advocate a Sola Scriptura view of Christianity, I merely think we ought to give Scripture the honour it deserves.

 

[Lampo]

I was not trying to “prove” the sufficiency of Scripture from a source exterior to Scripture, per se. St. Thomas Aquinas, as a Doctor of the Church, taught nothing contrary to faith or morals. As he taught the material sufficiency of Scripture, that cannot be contrary to faith or morals. I was merely defending my right to maintain the material sufficiency of Scripture via St. Thomas, not to prove it outright from him.

Saint Thomas Aquinas also said the following:

“If I have written anything erroneous, I submit all to the judgment and correction of the Holy Roman Church, in whose obedience I now pass from this life.”
– Thomas Aquinas

 

[atman]

Saint Thomas Aquinas also said the following:

“If I have written anything erroneous, I submit all to the judgment and correction of the Holy Roman Church, in whose obedience I now pass from this life.”
– Thomas Aquinas

True, he did, but the material sufficiency of the Bible is not contrary to faith or morals! The Summa Theo. bears an imprimatur, so there is nothing within it contrary to faith or morals, though it may contain error in other ways. Never has the Church attempted to define something dogmatically which has no grounding whatsoever in Scripture. Again, I do not advocate a Lutheran view of self-interpreting Scripture. We need the guidance of the Catholic Church to understand Biblical truth, but that does not mean that the truth of faith cannot be contained between the covers of a Bible. It’s like a large cavern complex: you may know that there is a hoard of treasure scattered throughout those caves, but you still need an excavating team to find all of it. The Bible is the cavern, the treasure is the truth of faith, the Catholic Church is a (divinely appointed) robust team of spelunkers, and their search for and location of that treasure is the development of doctrine.

For more information on this topic, check out this short article from This Rock.

 

[twb1621]

Stop mimicking the facts!

I’ll do my best…

 

[PEPCIS]

Is the bible, authoritatively speaking, the self-interpreted Word of God?

No. Any language requires interpretation. When John the Baptist said, “Behold, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world”, we must interpret it properly to understand that Jesus is not a literal Lamb, but a metaphorical and sacrificial Lamb of God.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I don’t advocate a Sola Scriptura view of Christianity, I merely think we ought to give Scripture the honour it deserves.

I don’t mean to be touchy, but this statement seems to imply that the Catholic Church does not give Sacred Scripture enough honor. Please correct me if I’m wrong. .

 

[atman]

I don’t mean to be touchy, but this statement seems to imply that the Catholic Church does not give Sacred Scripture enough honor. Please correct me if I’m wrong. .

Absolutely not!!! The Catholic Church gives Scripture the fullness of respect! She gives it the respect of infallibly guided interpretation, for one thing. Can’t get much more honourable than that!

I meant that we owe it to God to acknowledge that His Scripture does not just contain bits and pieces of revelation: it contains the whole of revelation. Again, this is not to say the Bible needs no Church-guided interpretation to expose the fullness of this doctrine, but stating that there is revealed truth exterior to the Bible amounts, so far as I can see, to calling the text an incomplete manuscript.