It's NOT in the Bible

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Sure, He can speak authoritatively, but is that authority understood? What good is authority in a sea of ignorance? No one is saying God is not authoritative. But authority is meaningless unless that which is decreed authoritatively is correctly interpreted and understood. So we can go on and on all day about how God is the final authority - no problem at all there. And we can even say He speaks authoritatively through the written Word. Sure. But you can’t stop there. You have to acknowledge the need for correct understanding, and more to the point, a universal understanding. I might begin to agree with you if it happened to also be that those who held to SS all held the same understanding of that which is contained inside it. But that is not the case is it? In fact, the disunity of Christianity is caused by this mistaken belief in unaccompanied authority of the written Word. It can only speak authoritatively if there is no debate about that which it says, and even then, universal agreement does not define objective truth. Thus, it can only speak both authoritatively AND inerrantly if it is interpreted by those entrusted and empowered by Christ Himself to do so, and utilized by those who submit to this authority and do not stray from the framework of the deposit of faith in their reading of it.
Yes! I agree with you! This is why the divide should not be whether or not we are subject to scripture [God], but on the specific interpretations of that scripture. Because the Catholic Church would not teach something that is against what it interprets as contradictory to scripture. And that is the application of sola scriptura.
No. It cannot decide on something that scripture is against because the Church IS the Tradition within which Sacred Scripture came to be a treasure of Christianity, and that Church is protected by the Holy Spirit from inerrantly interpreting the written word and from passing down oral tradition regarding matters of faith and morals. Again, the Church is NOT subject to the Scriptures ALONE.
Again, I’m not saying that it should be subject to them ALONE, but rather it should be subject to them where they are authoritative.
 
I believe we can have our own opinion [hopefully a prayerful one] regarding whether something we do offends God or not so long as it does not explicitly say one way or the other in scripture. However, it’s important to note that our opinion doesn’t influence whether or not it actually does or does not offend God.

No. Contraception is either sinful for all or sinful for none. My feelings one way or the other will not change God’s opinion. However, since God chose not to be explicit on whether or not it is a sin, it is left to opinion on whether it actually is or is not.
Ok insert God being Triune.

So since God chose not to be explicit on whether or not it is a sin, to think He is not Triune, it is left to opinion on whether it actually is or is not

It is not EXPLICIT in Scripture, So did He leave that to the opinions of men?

I could have that OPINION, but it would not reflect reality, and would be greatly missing the mark!

That is why Protestantism needs a living, speaking voice for today!

youtu.be/RWYwBDqFsuE
 
I don’t say any such thing explicitly or by default. There is a difference between the words “sole/alone” and “final”. God is the final authority of the universe. Therefore, if He says something (for example, via the scriptures), it is true and the Catholic Church is subject to that authority.
See there you go again. You say it and yet deny it. My friend you were very explicit:

“…the Catholic Church is subject to the authority of the scriptures…”

Again…how does one separate God Word (Bible) from His Body (Church)…?

First.,no one is claiming God is NOT the final authority. Second, if God said something in it is written in scripture,yes it has authority,but not the sole authority or only authority. Third, Jesus FOUNDED His Church which is the PILLAR of Truth,no where does He teach His Church is subject to the written Word. Fourth, Christianity is a religion of the person: Jesus Christ,not the book called the Bible. Are we Jews or Muslims?
 
The authority of God’s word does not need to be defined. This is not a discussion about canonicity. Let’s say we agree 100% on what the canon is and we agree that it is made up of God’s word. Its authority must be self-evident because no one or group has authority greater than God’s.
Which begs the question: Then why isn’t Clement’s Letter in our Bible? Many communities believed it was God’s Word…so why was it excluded? I thought you said it does not need to be defined?

It is authority must be self-evident? So again…the Bible (cause) is above the Church (effect)?
 
Ok insert God being Triune.

So since God chose not to be explicit on whether or not it is a sin, to think He is not Triune, it is left to opinion on whether it actually is or is not

It is not EXPLICIT in Scripture, So did He leave that to the opinions of men?

I could have that OPINION, but it would not reflect reality, and would be greatly missing the mark!

That is why Protestantism needs a living, speaking voice for today!

youtu.be/RWYwBDqFsuE
I agree that your opinion would not reflect or affect reality. I stated this at least twice in this thread. 🤷
 
See there you go again. You say it and yet deny it. My friend you were very explicit:

“…the Catholic Church is subject to the authority of the scriptures…”

Again…how does one separate God Word (Bible) from His Body (Church)…?

First.,no one is claiming God is NOT the final authority. Second, if God said something in it is written in scripture,yes it has authority,but not the sole authority or only authority. Third, Jesus FOUNDED His Church which is the PILLAR of Truth,no where does He teach His Church is subject to the written Word. Fourth, Christianity is a religion of the person: Jesus Christ,not the book called the Bible. Are we Jews or Muslims?
I say what and deny what? I believe the Catholic Church is subject to the authority of the scriptures. I’m not denying that. That’s my point.

I’m not sure what you mean by separating the Bible from the church. People in the church/Church are fallible. God is not. How is validating what a person or group teaches with what God says inappropriate?

He doesn’t need to teach that his church is subject to the written word. He is the head of the church and we are commanded to be subject to Him (Eph 5). And if we believe the scriptures to be His words, then logically we should be subject to them.

As for your sarcastic Jews or Muslims comment, I will restate: I do not worship the Bible. I worship the God of the Bible.
 
Which begs the question: Then why isn’t Clement’s Letter in our Bible? Many communities believed it was God’s Word…so why was it excluded? I thought you said it does not need to be defined?

It is authority must be self-evident? So again…the Bible (cause) is above the Church (effect)?
That is not what I said at all. I said this discussion is not about canonicity and your question is one of canonicity. God gives authority to the scriptures. The best man could do is affirm it.
 
Yes! I agree with you! This is why the divide should not be whether or not we are subject to scripture [God], but on the specific interpretations of that scripture. Because the Catholic Church would not teach something that is against what it interprets as contradictory to scripture. And that is the application of sola scriptura.
Well, the divide is actually one of recognition of earthly authority. The crux of the Protestant Reformation was the denial of Church authority in all matters Christian. That hasn’t changed to this day.

To me, there is little productivity in attempts at unification if all we talk about is interpretations of this or that scripture. The divide goes deeper. It bottoms out at this: did Christ establish, and endow with Holy Spirit guidance and protection, a visible, hierarchical, magisterial, liturgical, sacramental, and above all, authoritative Church on earth or did He not? Sure, you can find some evidence of this in scripture itself. But that is always subject to a biased reading of the verses, framed by the oral, traditional teachings of whatever Christian community you are exposed to. It’s helpful, but it’s not where the divide is. Ultimately, protestants are entrenched in a belief that Christ would not, and did not, create, gift and commission an institution made up of sinful men to shepherd His flock in His earthly absence.

So, I agree with you that the divide (or better, debate) should not be based on whether we are subject to Scripture, whether that’s a final authority for one group, or an integrated part of a final authority for another. But it should also not be based on individual interpretations here and there. While there is a place for that sort of discussion, the debate should be about God’s appointed authority post-Pentecost. To me, the swim across the Tiber to Rome, while ultimately a matter of Spirit-led interior conversion, is buoyed by scripture, history and reason.
Again, I’m not saying that it should be subject to them ALONE, but rather it should be subject to them where they are authoritative.
I think you are trying to make the Church fit into the Sola Scriptura box, but it simply won’t work. And the reason is that SS promulgates the concept of the efficacy of individual, independent, interpretation based on the perspicuity of Scripture regarding all things pertaining to salvation. The Church does not hold to this concept. It understands that Scripture alone, without the Church, is not sufficient for understanding that which pertains to salvation. It understands this, not because an individual here or there can never see the fullness of truth of the Catholic faith from their isolated reading of it, but because on the whole, without the framework of the divine deposit of faith, many will misinterpret and be led astray, away from the fullness of Truth not only in Scripture, but in the sacramental and spiritual life of the Church.

So, it has everything to do with the divine appointment of the Church and the fact that SS says “you don’t need Her”. That’s why ultimately, you can never say that the Church does not object to a notion of SS.
 
FaithfulAndTrue:
I say what and deny what? I believe the Catholic Church is subject to the authority of the scriptures. I’m not denying that. That’s my point.
No need to repeat myself. And I have corrected your point numerous times. Your point holds no logic. You basically are making Christ Body subject to His own written words.
I’m not sure what you mean by separating the Bible from the church. People in the church/Church are fallible. God is not. How is validating what a person or group teaches with what God says inappropriate?
Because of your invalid point: Catholic Church is subject to the authority of the scriptures,which does not allow you to comprehend. Yes you separate God written Words also known as the Bible from His Mystical Body called the Church,which scripture is very clear is the pillar of the Truth (1 Timothy 3:15). In essence you’re pitting the Bible against the Church, where the church subject to the written words alone. People in the church are fallible? What people? So Words in the Bible are fallible since men in the church are fallible-correct?
He doesn’t need to teach that his church is subject to the written word. He is the head of the church and we are commanded to be subject to Him (Eph 5). And if we believe the scriptures to be His words, then logically we should be subject to them.
You’re not understanding. And I asked you where are God’s Word strictly binded to written words? That is the error of the Bible being the authority above the church. The Church,Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are all on the same par.
As for your sarcastic Jews or Muslims comment, I will restate: I do not worship the Bible. I worship the God of the Bible
I was not being sacrastic,I was simply letting you know Christianity is about the person: Christ…not the Bible.
 
Well, the divide is actually one of recognition of earthly authority. The crux of the Protestant Reformation was the denial of Church authority in all matters Christian. That hasn’t changed to this day.

To me, there is little productivity in attempts at unification if all we talk about is interpretations of this or that scripture. The divide goes deeper. It bottoms out at this: did Christ establish, and endow with Holy Spirit guidance and protection, a visible, hierarchical, magisterial, liturgical, sacramental, and above all, authoritative Church on earth or did He not? Sure, you can find some evidence of this in scripture itself. But that is always subject to a biased reading of the verses, framed by the oral, traditional teachings of whatever Christian community you are exposed to. It’s helpful, but it’s not where the divide is. Ultimately, protestants are entrenched in a belief that Christ would not, and did not, create, gift and commission an institution made up of sinful men to shepherd His flock in His earthly absence.

So, I agree with you that the divide (or better, debate) should not be based on whether we are subject to Scripture, whether that’s a final authority for one group, or an integrated part of a final authority for another. But it should also not be based on individual interpretations here and there. While there is a place for that sort of discussion, the debate should be about God’s appointed authority post-Pentecost. To me, the swim across the Tiber to Rome, while ultimately a matter of Spirit-led interior conversion, is buoyed by scripture, history and reason.

I think you are trying to make the Church fit into the Sola Scriptura box, but it simply won’t work. And the reason is that SS promulgates the concept of the efficacy of individual, independent, interpretation based on the perspicuity of Scripture regarding all things pertaining to salvation. The Church does not hold to this concept. It understands that Scripture alone, without the Church, is not sufficient for understanding that which pertains to salvation. It understands this, not because an individual here or there can never see the fullness of truth of the Catholic faith from their isolated reading of it, but because on the whole, without the framework of the divine deposit of faith, many will misinterpret and be led astray, away from the fullness of Truth not only in Scripture, but in the sacramental and spiritual life of the Church.

So, it has everything to do with the divine appointment of the Church and the fact that SS says “you don’t need Her”. That’s why ultimately, you can never say that the Church does not object to a notion of SS.
I agree with you on the divide and its root. Certainly we will not solve the Christian community’s unification problems in this thread. If only…

I do appreciate the discussion and the time you’ve taken for your measured responses. 👍
 
That is not what I said at all. I said this discussion is not about canonicity and your question is one of canonicity. God gives authority to the scriptures. The best man could do is affirm it.
Nope! You are merely side-stepping from the larger context of authority. Of course one can mention canonicity of the Bible,since you believe the church is subject to the authority of Scripture. Precisely why I asked you since the church in essence is under scriptural authority,where did the church get the authority to define a fixed canon?
 
FaithfulAndTrue:

No need to repeat myself. And I have corrected your point numerous times. Your point holds no logic. You basically are making Christ Body subject to His own written words.

Because of your invalid point: Catholic Church is subject to the authority of the scriptures,which does not allow you to comprehend. Yes you separate God written Words also known as the Bible from His Mystical Body called the Church,which scripture is very clear is the pillar of the Truth (1 Timothy 3:15). In essence you’re pitting the Bible against the Church, where the church subject to the written words alone. People in the church are fallible? What people? So Words in the Bible are fallible since men in the church are fallible-correct?

You’re not understanding. And I asked you where are God’s Word strictly binded to written words? That is the error of the Bible being the authority above the church. The Church,Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are all on the same par.

I was not being sacrastic,I was simply letting you know Christianity is about the person: Christ…not the Bible.
Well, sadly, I’m running out of time to respond today, but I will say that I never stated God’s word is strictly bound to written words. That is your projection and assumption of my opinion and that is simply not true. One obvious example is that I believe God can and does speak to us via prayer.

People are fallible. I’m not sure how this is debatable. We believe the scriptures—even though physically penned by man—to be the words of God and have to take that on faith since we do not have a prior frame of reference with which to compare. However, with the scriptures, we now do for all others. For example, you say the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. How do you discern that? How do you know? Well, wouldn’t you consult the scriptures to make sure its teachings are not obviously contrary to what you have taken on faith as God’s word? That is not pitting the Bible against the church. That is simply seeking confirmation.

Thank you for pointing out that Christianity is about the person of Jesus Christ and not about the Bible. I couldn’t agree more.
 
Nope! You are merely side-stepping from the larger context of authority. Of course one can mention canonicity of the Bible,since you believe the church is subject to the authority of Scripture. Precisely why I asked you since the church in essence is under scriptural authority,where did the church get the authority to define a fixed canon?
We have another 100+ page thread somewhere on the canonicity topic. But you challenged me on the self-evident authority of the scriptures. To which I responded: If we believe the scriptures to be God’s words and we believe God is the ultimate authority, then it logically follows that we should be subject to the scriptures.
 
I agree that your opinion would not reflect or affect reality. I stated this at least twice in this thread. 🤷
What I was getting at was, having a Living voice to speak, when certain difficult questions arise that are not, covered by Scripture or the Early Church Fathers.
 
The Church was formed before the the bible was even written. It was put together by the Church. The Torah was written and used before hand by the Jews, but the new testament (most commonly quoted by those who believe in Sola Scriptora) was written by about 90A.D.
So if you just believe in Sola Scriptora then your missing a very important part of the faith. For every book written there are things that are assumed that the reader knows. Like for example in a World War II book they assume you know where Germany and England are. In the bible the writers assume that the readers know curtain things. That’s where Tradition comes in. If we didn’t have that then we couldn’t understand many of the things that make Christ’s life, death, and Resurrection so spectacular.
If you were to take out ALL of the New Testament and JUST read the Old Testament, you will find that the Catholic Church is based in the Old Testament as much or more to the New Testament because the New Testament uses parallels. This proves that we are not sola scriptura because a lot of our faith came before the forming of the New Testament (aka TRADITION)
 
…where it is in the Word of God that it specifically states that everything that Christians believe and practice must be found within its [the Bible’s] pages. …
No where in the Bible does it mention Jesus making a phone call. Does that mean that Christians cannot use telephones?
 
We have another 100+ page thread somewhere on the canonicity topic. But you challenged me on the self-evident authority of the scriptures. To which I responded: If we believe the scriptures to be God’s words and we believe God is the ultimate authority, then it logically follows that we should be subject to the scriptures.
But that is where you are presenting a false premise. You are linking the Bible-alone to God’s word,thus it is above everything and I told you nowhere does God teach His Words are strictly binded to written words. In order for the church,which is the Body of Christ to be under the authority of the written Word of God…Jesus Himself would have been very clear on the matter. Again…Jesus founded His Church with full authority here on earth. Now…no one is negating the Bible as God,s Word, but to state His own Church is under scriptural authority is simply bogus and nowhere taught by God or His 12.
 
FaithfulAndTrue:
Well, sadly, I’m running out of time to respond today, but I will say that I never stated God’s word is strictly bound to written words. That is your projection and assumption of my opinion and that is simply not true. One obvious example is that I believe God can and does speak to us via prayer.
My brother/sister in Christ, I am merely making conclusions based on what you have presented here on the site. I mean no malice or bad intent.
People are fallible. I’m not sure how this is debatable.
Are you that confident with your statement? It is very debatable. If people are fallible,then it is conclusive according to your argument the very words penned inside Bible were written by fallible men-correct? Thus,we have no certitude at all those are the Words of God.
We believe the scriptures—even though physically penned by man—to be the words of God and have to take that on faith since we do not have a prior frame of reference with which to compare. However, with the scriptures, we now do for all others. For example, you say the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. How do you discern that? How do you know? Well, wouldn’t you consult the scriptures to make sure its teachings are not obviously contrary to what you have taken on faith as God’s word? That is not pitting the Bible against the church. That is simply seeking confirmation.
Then you just contradicted your opening statement: men are fallible. Thus…they are exceptions to the rule,which allows men to be infallible-right? Case in point, the writing of God’s Words. Yes the Holy Spirit guides the church as stated by Jesus. How do we know? How do we discern such a fact? Because Jesus said it ORALLY before ANYTHING was penned on parchment. So how can His Church be submissive to written words known as scripture? History has shown over and over the early church did not adhere to a one volume-canonized book called the Bible,but the oral words of men who later penned them.
Thank you for pointing out that Christianity is about the person of Jesus Christ and not about the Bible. I couldn’t agree more.
Amen!
 
False.But where does God every say: Only written words contain my Word. God’s Word cannot lie with His Mystical Body (Eph:1-22-23) also known as the Church? Jesus founded His Church…not the Bible. In fact the Bible says the opposite of what you present. Where does the Pillar of Truth lie? The Church or the Bible?

Likewise,where in the Bible does it ever state it is an authority? The Bible decided all on it is own or did Christ Body determine it is a source of authority?

The false dichotomy you present is very common: The Church versus the Bible. It is not an either/or but both/and.
Hey nicea325, How true. This is the way with many Protestants that i know. Little or no early church history in their back round. They have only been taught from Luther forward.
Completely unaware of how much more there is to it.
Great post…👍

Matthew
 
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