It's time to end the "imperial episcopate." What do you think?

[godisgood77]

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Here is the type of clothes my pastor wears around…

 

[joeybaggz]

I once asked a good priest I knew how many bishops he has met in his ministry that were good, humble, honest, hard-working men, and how many were preening, pompous, institutionally ambition peacocks. His answer, 1 in three are the latter. He felt that the majority were in the first category. In my 65+ years as a Catholic, through experience, I would agree with him.

Get rid of the "your excellency, your eminence, etc. etc. nonsense, please. If “Father” is good enough for the pastor, maybe something like “Reverend Father” would suffice for a bishop, if you even need it. The “largest” title in the U.S. is Mr. President. Your honor for a judge, and noting much else. Where do we really need this nostalgic Middle Age idiocy in today’s Roman Catholic Church. And maybe we ought to stop calling these men, “Princes” of the Church. I say hooray for the author of this article.

 

[godisgood77]

I’m saying that this is elaborate compared to simple priestly garb… see the difference

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[TheLittleLady]

What reason? Because you didn’t like one article?

I stopped subscribing years ago, gave it another shot, found that the political undercurrent was becoming more polarized, gave up.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

The shepherd’s staff that bishops carry around should be put in the closet until further notice.

 

[rose321]

Yes, but Christ didn’t tell us to come as kings, but as slaves.

Respectfully opinion only. Pondering
Are we not all the King of Kings>> Sons and Daughters?

Thought Jesus came to set us Free from slavery?
Bondage of others?
Being a sinner Jesus taught us did he not>>one who sins becomes a slave to?

Jesus holds no one in his bondage or makes them his slaves does he? Jesus came to make know>
2 Corinthians 1:8-10 >For we do not want you to be be egnorant,

Too many Biblical verses where Jesus speaks about Freedom, Freedom from slavery? Freedom of Oppression of others? All are Equal?

As far as the Title topic does St Peter give us answer and did Jesus not give us The Way, etc?

Acts 10:25
Luke 5:8 Do not bow to me for I too am just a man, an Elder among Elders?

There were thousands of priest, priestess within the community of the faithful Belief in Jesus day where there not?

As written we are >>all>>called>>I am Holy thou art to be Holy also…Do you not know are the Temple of the Lord?
Are not all called to go out and Spread the Good News into all Nations?

Each Elder, Deacon, etc were assigned 2 weeks out of the year to go within the Temple and serve? The after serving return home to their families and labor for their own needs and care of the family?

Only High Priest remained within?
My House is not divided>>were there even what we call today laity that existed in Jesus time>>> were they not all One House Hold>> all one?

Peace

 

[joeybaggz]

Fair enough!

 

[rose321]

Respectfully in Jesus time there was no fancy glitter by those who served among the people. was there?

Jesus lived, walked among, cried with, ate with, stayed with, defended the outcast, the down trodden and the orphans and widows why?

Jesus our Heavenly Father are the richest of all and all that lives dwells, exist in the whole Universe belongs to Him, for He created it all right?
Yet he shares with all freely?

What did Jesus know and what was Jesus trying to teach and preach us to know?

Suggesting only >>>
Read all the Chapter of Matthew 23?

Whom is Jesus boldly, harshly, strongly, rebuking and cursing them, calling them blood vipers, hypocrites, identifies to us who are the children of the father of lies etc and Jesus judges them and Jesus gives them all His woes to them?

What was Jesus and apostles clothing?
In Jesus time and even Jesus >>>maybe had one cloak and a pair of sandals and baths were far and few maybe?
Jesus did not live in a glamorous mansion either did he, nor sought such?

Jesus seeks not glitter nor clamor>>could careless what one is wearing? Jesus taught in open fields every where, did not need a grand place to give us His Spoken Word did he?

but Jesus seeks out>>searcher of Hearts, Souls and Minds, matters not what you are wearing jeans or other wise does it?

Jesus teaches us, do not serve the desires of the flesh.
Jesus makes us clearly aware of the Lawlessones, does he not?

As written?

Do you not know>>you>>are the Temple of the Lord?
Is this not where our Heavenly Father wants to be Glorified, Worship, where he seeks to rest within each one of us?

As written>>I am right where you stand…

Peace Just opinion

 

[Agathon]

No. It was even apparent in the first century A.D.

 

[twf]

Yet the high priests of the Old Testament, by God’s explicit command, were elaborate vestments. Vestments represent the glory of God and of His priesthood, not of the individual priest.

 

[twf]

The “largest” title in the U.S. is Mr. President. Your honor for a judge, and noting much else. Where do we really need this nostalgic Middle Age idiocy in today’s Roman Catholic Church.

Only 5% of Catholics live in the US, so why should American sensibilities be the driving force behind reform of Church traditions? Titles such as “my lord” or “your excellency” are used in many countries / cultures outside of the US in a secular context.
As an aside, even if the US President isn’t given “fancy” titles, he certainly is treated like a king in every way that counts… using the relatively simple title “Mr. President” doesn’t make him a “man of the people” who you’ll meet and chat up at the local supermarket.

 

[jtavington]

Two separate things: Ornate vestments can help orient worshipers toward the sublime mysteries of the heavenly court.

The scandal his revealed a careerist CYA mentality from the episcopacy.

I say that all bishops should be required to live with a similar standard to priests who take vows of poverty. Ordinary administrative tasks should be handled by the laity, as should fundraising.

 

[BartholomewB]

As I said in another thread, Modernism is rampant in the Church these days. Sad seeing so many posters here subscribe to that heresy.

One man’s modernism … A Protestant poster I have friendly dealings with on another website argues that the modernist rot set in much earlier. Here’s a short snippet from something he posted the other day.

Early in the 4th century a bishop of Rome, Sylvester, accepted an arrangement due to a new Emperor, Constantine. The authorities promoted Christianity as the approved religion within the Roman Empire, but the Emperor could interfere in church matters – a covenant yoking the church to this world. Churchmen saw this as a way to win the world for Christ, but instead worldly thinking polluted the church.

… Whatever Constantine’s personal faith, he integrated Christianity into his politics. And the bride of Christ, the church (Rev 21), took the deal and committed adultery with the State; with the world.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Well, no, the author directly states what he meant. He refers to the embellishments of status, like colorful sashes.

Obviously he is not referring to liturgy, because E Orthodox have just as elaborate and beautiful vestments. And yet the author refers to the Orthodox when talking about the daily clerical garb as a reference of what we could do about the “Catholic uniforms.”

 

[deMontfort]

Then introduce him to the Encyclicals of Pius X, thereby educating him as to what Modernism actually is, rather than his “Great Apostasy” heresy.

 

[BartholomewB]

Too late to introduce him to Pius X. He already knows all about that!

 

[deMontfort]

You can lead a heretic to water, but you can’t make him drink.

 

[catholic1seeks]

You’re confusing the existence of the episcopate and the hierarchy itself with what the author of the article refers to as the “imperial episcopate.”

Even in the first century, bishops and simple priests didn’t yet distinguish themselves with elaborate clerical garb. Of the research I’ve done, they wore the same daily clothes as everyone else. And, like the author said, they were father figures. Not “princes.”

 

[catholic1seeks]

I’m not sure if there is a problem with the red sash. It was part of the author’s larger point about status, etc.

I don’t think the red sash for cardinals is particularly elaborate. However, I think 100 years ago or so the cape and everything was a bit too much. That’s just my opinion.

Again, the larger issue is the overall framework – the “imperial” episcopate that separates the lay faithful apart from an unhealthy clerical culture.

The author’s comments regarding clerical garb were just a small piece within this overall framework.

 

[Agathon]

You’re confusing the existence of the episcopate and the hierarchy itself with what the author of the article refers to as the “imperial episcopate.”

Even in the first century, bishops and simple priests didn’t yet distinguish themselves with elaborate clerical garb. Of the research I’ve done, they wore the same daily clothes as everyone else. And, like the author said, they were father figures. Not “princes.”

Prince in the Hebrew language means leader. So the Apostles and bishops were princes.