It's time to regroup again

[Thomas_Casey]

We had stopped using labels and I’m seeing them return.

It is not necessary to label people modernist, heretic, deviant, or any other label that we know will offend. If you see a poster do it, please report it.

Demanding that the other person prove what he says by citing references and documents to satisfy your curiosity reduces dialog to a session of “Prove it”. People are not on trial here. Such demands only intimidate others who may want to share an opinion, but refrain for fear that they have to prove something to others.

You may ask someone if he can point you in a direction where you can read more about a subject. That’s a much more pleasant request, because it does not call into question the other person’s knowledge or integrity. You may choose to offer such resources by citing them in your presentation.

We don’t want discussions for the sake of winning an argument.

Do not reduce TC Forum to talk about the EF and OF. If there is a thread on the mass, start one on another subject. Catholic tradition is very rich.

TC Forum must be a safe place to share about all of the different aspects of Catholic tradition.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

We had stopped using labels and I’m seeing them return.

It is not necessary to label people modernist, heretic, deviant, or any other label that we know will offend. If you see a poster do it, please report it.

Demanding that the other person prove what he says by citing references and documents to satisfy your curiosity reduces dialog to a session of “Prove it”. People are not on trial here. Such demands only intimidate others who may want to share an opinion, but refrain for fear that they have to prove something to others.

That is called ad hominem.
If you try to discuss with him you are giving him wood to put on the fire.
Simple solution: do not get offended by what others say.
A late priest I knew used to say: “I only get hurt by those whom I want” I do not know whether the translation is good.

 

[Fiasco]

Demanding that the other person prove what he says by citing references and documents to satisfy your curiosity reduces dialog to a session of*** “Prove it”. People are not on trial here. Such demands only intimidate others*** who may want to share an opinion, but refrain for fear that they have to prove something to others.

TC Forum must be a safe place to share about all of the different aspects of Catholic tradition.

Thanks for saying that. Less than a week ago, I left a site for that very reason.
Joined up here.

 

[Vianney33]

This must be directed to True Mass regarding his question to JReducation in the SSPX thread.

I must admit I am confused. JREducation stated that the religious orders in the past supported both views of uniting to the Catholic Church to be saved and that non-Catholic religions were means of salvation.

True Mass then asked him for evidence to support the claim that religious orders in the past supported the idea that non-Catholic religions are means of salvation.

I think it is important that every poster not state things as facts if they have no ability to back up what they are saying. If someone asked me to cite evidence for a proposition I stated on this forum, I would welcome it and explain to them my evidence for what I believe.

I think the reaction in this case, automatically assuming True Mass had an “agenda” and ascribing nefarious motives is counter productive. It could have been handled by simply citing whatever evidence JREducation had to support his claim.

If we can just make statements on here wily nily with absolutely nothing to back them up, then it becomes a forum of potential disinformation and we lose our credibility.

Anyway, just my two cents.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

This is not about one poster or one post. It’s about a number of BPRs that I’ve received. You can have a conversation without getting into this back forth. If one wants more information, it’s much more polite to ask where you can read more about a subject.

As the poster before you has said. Some people leave forums because of this. They are less inclined to post something that they know or believe, because they feel they have to prove everything they say.

This is not up for us to argue about it. It is up to give people some guidance on how to keep the discussions interesting and enjoyable. Please try to keep the conversation going instead of getting bogged down with proofs, name calling or labels.

 

[Anathama_Sit]

We had stopped using labels and I’m seeing them return.

It is not necessary to label people modernist, heretic, deviant, or any other label that we know will offend. If you see a poster do it, please report it.

Demanding that the other person prove what he says by citing references and documents to satisfy your curiosity reduces dialog to a session of “Prove it”. People are not on trial here. Such demands only intimidate others who may want to share an opinion, but refrain for fear that they have to prove something to others.

You may ask someone if he can point you in a direction where you can read more about a subject. That’s a much more pleasant request, because it does not call into question the other person’s knowledge or integrity. You may choose to offer such resources by citing them in your presentation.

We don’t want discussions for the sake of winning an argument.

Do not reduce TC Forum to talk about the EF and OF. If there is a thread on the mass, start one on another subject. Catholic tradition is very rich.

TC Forum must be a safe place to share about all of the different aspects of Catholic tradition.

Greetings Thomas Casey,

If I may I do have a question. IF someone is clearly saying something that is out of line with Church documents or proposing something that seems credible, are we not allowed to ask for them to provide documentation for their assertions?

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[Thomas_Casey]

We do not allow people to deliberately misrepresent what the Catholic Church teaches. If that is the case, please send a BPR and allow one of the moderators to deal with it.

If you think that it’s just a honest misunderstanding or lack of information, it would be a great act of kindness for the reader to post a reference or a link to a reference. This way, you’re teaching the ignorant, which is a work of mercy and you’re not engaging in a confrontation, “Prove it.” vs. “No, you prove it”.

It’s been my experience that people often hear something, can’t recall where they heard it, but repeat it incorrectly, with no malice intended. When someone comes out with “prove it” it embarrasses them unnecessarily.

Charity goes far and costs little. It’s probably the only thing of great value that is still free in this economy.

 

[Anathama_Sit]

We do not allow people to deliberately misrepresent what the Catholic Church teaches. If that is the case, please send a BPR and allow one of the moderators to deal with it.

If you think that it’s just a honest misunderstanding or lack of information, it would be a great act of kindness for the reader to post a reference or a link to a reference. This way, you’re teaching the ignorant, which is a work of mercy and you’re not engaging in a confrontation, “Prove it.” vs. “No, you prove it”.

It’s been my experience that people often hear something, can’t recall where they heard it, but repeat it incorrectly, with no malice intended. When someone comes out with “prove it” it embarrasses them unnecessarily.

Charity goes far and costs little. It’s probably the only thing of great value that is still free in this economy.

Greetings Thomas Casey,

This is good to know. Thank you for taking the time out to answer my question.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[dmorgan]

You can ban me if you wish, but this “touchy feely”, “do not offend” attitude is precisely what has led to the disaster we have in the Church today.
What justice is served by not calling posters out for making statements which are contrary to Church teaching?
How can one lead others to the Truth without pointing out lies and falsehoods which run counter to the teachings of Christ and Mother Church?
How can one descibe our Tradition without debating against those with modernist ideology that wish to corrupt the Truth?

"The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it." +ArchBishop Fulton Sheen

“With truly lamentable results, our age, casting aside all restraint in its search for the ultimate causes of things, frequently pursues novelties so ardently that it rejects the legacy of the human race. Thus it falls into very serious errors, which are even more serious when they concern sacred authority, the interpretation of Sacred Scripture, and the principal mysteries of Faith. The fact that many Catholic writers also go beyond the limits determined by the Fathers and the Church herself is extremely regrettable. In the name of higher knowledge and historical research (they say), they are looking for that progress of dogmas which is, in reality, nothing but the corruption of dogmas.” +Pope St. Pius X Lamentabili Sane ‘read the rest here:’ papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm

2nd Epistle Of Saint Paul To Timothy ; Chapter 4
“[1]I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming, and his kingdom: [2] Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine. [3] For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: [4] And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. [5] But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry. Be sober.”

Following from: drbo.org/chapter/62004.htm

 

[RB2]

You can ban me if you wish, but this “touchy feely”, “do not offend” attitude is precisely what has led to the disaster we have in the Church today.

Agreed. There needs to be civility here. But it seems the standard here is ‘charity’.
I get more complaints and/or comments from females playing ‘charity police’, predominantly for being rude, which in reality is just my typical ‘male insensitivity’ or in other cases my choice of language which uses idioms that are not from the female domain. Much of this criticism simply emanates from the fact that I am relating as a male and not a domesticated female. This site has been feminized as is much of society going that way and of course the Church.

All the people here playing ‘Charity Police’ leads to problems.
I typically dont talk with charity. I just let it out. Yet charity seems to be the mantra word here. I’ve gotten infraction points for ‘uncharitable post’.

 

[Marie5890]

Much of this criticism simply emanates from the fact that I am relating as a male and not a domesticated female. This site has been feminized as is much of society going that way and of course the Church.

All the people here playing ‘Charity Police’ leads to problems.
.

I wonder if Mary, the Queen of Heaven, was ever labeled “domesticated female” by the other disciples, particularly the 12. Or Martha, or Mary Magdalene?

I wonder if they were ever criticized for being “feminized” or for being “charity police”

Charity and humility are hallmarks of Our Lady. What is wrong with that? What is wrong with emulating charity and humility? Since when are such virtues lacking in value?

 

[severus68]

We had stopped using labels and I’m seeing them return.

It is not necessary to label people modernist, heretic, deviant, or any other label that we know will offend. If you see a poster do it, please report it.

Demanding that the other person prove what he says by citing references and documents to satisfy your curiosity reduces dialog to a session of “Prove it”. People are not on trial here. Such demands only intimidate others who may want to share an opinion, but refrain for fear that they have to prove something to others.

You may ask someone if he can point you in a direction where you can read more about a subject. That’s a much more pleasant request, because it does not call into question the other person’s knowledge or integrity. You may choose to offer such resources by citing them in your presentation.

We don’t want discussions for the sake of winning an argument.

Do not reduce TC Forum to talk about the EF and OF. If there is a thread on the mass, start one on another subject. Catholic tradition is very rich.

TC Forum must be a safe place to share about all of the different aspects of Catholic tradition.

Thank you for this.

 

[Cat]

I hope it’s OK if I respond to this. I would like to describe how converts like my husband and myself feel when we read certain posts on CAF.

The problem comes because people believe that certain things are “modernist”, even if the Catholic Church has declared them acceptable. Everyone’s ideas of what is “modernist” in the Catholic Church seem to be different, and it’s confusing to converts and others who are immature in the faith.

E.g., Receiving Holy Communion in the hand is a subject of many debates on these forums. Some Catholics are vehemently opposed to this practice and condemn it using the most pejorative language.

Another example is the OF Mass itself. There are Catholics who have condemned this Mass form on CAF.

My husband and I are converts to Catholicism (2004), and all we have ever known is the OF Mass. (We do have a TLM parish in our city, fully endorsed and encouraged by our bishop.) When my husband and I first started attending the Mass, it seemed (and still seems) ancient and ritualistic to us. Remember, we are comparing to what we were raised in–the evangelical Protestant/Pentecostal worship services.

But the facts are as follows: the OF Mass is totally approved by the Catholic Church, as is receiving Holy Communion in the hand.

At least, this is what we were taught by the priests in our parish, and this is what we were taught at RCIA, and this is what our bishop teaches.

As converts, we felt very safe with all this teaching, and believed it (and still believe it).

But then we come to CAF for discussion and fun and learning, and we hear that Communion in the Hand and even the OF Mass are “modernist.” (or some other non-kosher term), and that their validity is questionable, and those presenting these viewpoints post all kinds of documents that look pretty authentic to us.

And even though we trust our bishop and priests, doubts still come into our minds. Maybe this Catholic Church isn’t really the Church of Christ, since there are so many disagreements. Maybe our bishop isn’t to be trusted. Maybe we’ve been taught wrong.

Now obviously my husband and I have to develop some gumption here and stop listening to people who teach something different than our apostle (our bishop) teaches.

But it’s still troublesome to us. Just remember, we are “little children” or even “babies” in the Catholic Church. Just a few years ago, we were “Mr. and Mrs. Evangelical Protestant.” We are easily confused, just as little children are easily confused.

We’re counting on all the mature Catholics to keep us pointed in the right direction here!

So I’m glad the Moderator is discouraging the name-calling and use of pejorative language, and I’m glad the Moderator has stated that people can’t deliberately misrepresent what the Catholic Church teaches. That is reassuring to those of us who were not raised Catholic and are still babies in this faith.

That’s my perspective anyway.

 

[Anathama_Sit]

Greetings Dmorgon,

No where in what Thomas Casey has posted have I seen anything that we cannot continue to spread the Truth in response to posts.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[Anathama_Sit]

We do not allow people to deliberately misrepresent what the Catholic Church teaches. If that is the case, please send a BPR and allow one of the moderators to deal with it.

If you think that it’s just a honest misunderstanding or lack of information, it would be a great act of kindness for the reader to post a reference or a link to a reference. This way, you’re teaching the ignorant, which is a work of mercy and you’re not engaging in a confrontation, “Prove it.” vs. “No, you prove it”.

It’s been my experience that people often hear something, can’t recall where they heard it, but repeat it incorrectly, with no malice intended. When someone comes out with “prove it” it embarrasses them unnecessarily.

Charity goes far and costs little. It’s probably the only thing of great value that is still free in this economy.

Greetings Thomas Casey,

I should have posted this earlier, but I will do it now.

Can we still ask posters as to what sources they are citing or wher they are getting what the are propounding to be true [if indeed it is not true]? IF this can be done in a way that it does not explicitly say “Prove this.”?

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Can we still ask posters as to what sources they are citing or wher they are getting what the are propounding to be true [if indeed it is not true]? IF this can be done in a way that it does not explicitly say “Prove this.”?

From the very first post that started this thread.

You may ask someone if he can point you in a direction where you can read more about a subject. That’s a much more pleasant request, because it does not call into question the other person’s knowledge or integrity. You may choose to offer such resources by citing them in your presentation.

I apologize to Thomas if I overstepped my bounds here by posting this.

 

[Anathama_Sit]

From the very first post that started this thread.

I apologize to Thomas if I overstepped my bounds here by posting this.

Greetings ByzCath,

Asking someone to direct you to where you could learn more about what they are saying and asking them what sources they are citing are two different things.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Greetings ByzCath,

Asking someone to direct you to where you could learn more about what they are saying and asking them what sources they are citing are two different things.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

Hmmm, politely asking in charity where one can find the sources is both of those.

 

[agnes_therese]

Greetings ByzCath,
Asking someone to direct you to where you could learn more about what they are saying and asking them what sources they are citing are two different things.
God Bless.
Anathama Sit

I think Mr. Casey’s main point (and apologies if I’ve misunderstood) is that there’s a lot to be said for the WAY you ask for the information. For example:

“Prove it!”
vs.
“I’ve never seen that quote, could you tell me where I can find it?”

You’re still really asking for the same information, just in a much different manner. Not that I’ve been perfect in this regard, myself.

 

[Anathama_Sit]

I think Mr. Casey’s main point (and apologies if I’ve misunderstood) is that there’s a lot to be said for the WAY you ask for the information. For example:

“Prove it!”
vs.
“I’ve never seen that quote, could you tell me where I can find it?”

You’re still really asking for the same information, just in a much different manner. Not that I’ve been perfect in this regard, myself.

Greetings Agnes Therese,

Perhaps it is a different way of asking the same question.

But what I want to know is it okay to ask the question ver batim “Can you cite the source that you are using?” Some people think that this may be confrontational.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit