IUD/birth control, help doing what the church wants

[Usige]

I am sorry to lay blame on him. Am I? I was saying that I would not be committing mortal sin if I abstained. And I am willing to do that since I want to avoid mortal sin. But he won’t abstain. I felt stuck.

…

So he is not committing any sin by having relations with me because the IUD is in my body? And I am not committing any sin if I have relations with his, despite condoms, because it’s his body? I don’t know. Maybe someone does. Again I would abstain. So much easier and then no sins. Sigh.

Abstaining has to be a mutual decision. If you insist on abstaining, but he does not and it leads him to masturbate then it is a problem for both of you. When we marry we give our spouse exclusive right to our bodies. If they justly ask for the marital embrace and we refuse for unjust reasons then we bear some culpability for any resulting sin. Even if he were not to commit a sin if you were to refuse, it is still problematic to refuse the marital embrace as it is one of the rights and duties of marriage. This can get tricky as far as what is “just” vs “unjust”, but you cannot chose perpetual continence unilaterally.

If you were to have the IUD removed and he were to continue to use a condom you would have no culpability as long as you told him you didn’t want him to use it. The same if you chose to keep the IUD and he stopped using a condom. That being said you cannot simply say I took out the IUD and am glad he is still using a condom. You cannot enjoy the “benefit” of a sin even if you are not directly the one doing it. We participate in sin when we support or do not oppose it. That doesn’t mean you have to say “I wish you wouldn’t use that” every time, but if you are buying them for him or say “no condom? not tonight” then you are culpable

 

[nodito]

No! Until about a week ago I had NO IDEA WHAT MORTAL SIN WAS. Now I have read about those elements and more. Now after reading I realize I am committing sin, I think. I did not know the IUD was a mortal sin (well, for me, I am not sure since all I had was a vague sense it was not allowed and little understanding why).

Catholics don’t keep their children ignorant, do they? You mean I’d be fine and not in sin if I CHOSE NOT GO JOIN CAF and learned no more about my faith?

All my Catholic friends out there with IUD’s are fine because they don’t know what mortal sin is? All of my friends I talk to have NO understanding of any of this. Our educations were poor, I can see. So they go to Heaven just fine?

Have I assumed a burden here by seeking knowledge? I hope God is listening and knows I am not trying to sin.

OP, sin is sin because it hurts us. It’s not some arbitrary set of rules made up by the Church. Even if we don’t know we’re drinking poison, it can still poison us. Better for you to realize what you’re ingesting, so to speak, and take steps to remedy it, than to be left in the dark.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

No! Until about a week ago I had NO IDEA WHAT MORTAL SIN WAS. Now I have read about those elements and more. Now after reading I realize I am committing sin, I think. I did not know the IUD was a mortal sin (well, for me, I am not sure since all I had was a vague sense it was not allowed and little understanding why).

Catholics don’t keep their children ignorant, do they? You mean I’d be fine and not in sin if I CHOSE NOT GO JOIN CAF and learned no more about my faith?

All my Catholic friends out there with IUD’s are fine because they don’t know what mortal sin is? All of my friends I talk to have NO understanding of any of this. Our educations were poor, I can see. So they go to Heaven just fine?

Have I assumed a burden here by seeking knowledge? I hope God is listening and knows I am not trying to sin.

How are you a catholic who has 7 kids and goes to mass every week and not know about mortal and venial sin? Did they cover that in religious ed? First confession? Confirmation? Marriage prep or in any pamphlet outside of a confessional?

 

[St_Francis]

The thing that is holding me back about removing it ASAP is because DH won’t abstain and I want to prevent another pregnancy.

I feel like I could do the right thing IF not for DH. Maybe that’s silly to say. We are married and I don’t live on an island alone.

So IUD through child-bearing years = eternal damnation no matter what? Confession won’t matter at all in the future nor bring absolution unless I remove it right away? But if I am not READY to sin no more…I don’t feel ready yet. I am still thinking about all this and about when it would come out, etc.

Right now, my impression is that neither you nor your husband thinks it is the right time to have another child. You are willing to use NFP and abstain in order to avoid pregnancy. Your husband is not willing to do this.

Therefore, you are using an IUD and he is using a condom. You do not want to move to condom alone, so you are keeping the IUD.

You are aware of the sinfulness of your situation. Your husband seems not to be? It sounds like he is still receiving Communion? Perhaps the best thing to do is for *both *of you to speak with a knowedgeable priest (and be aware that there are some priests, usually older, who do not follow Church teaching wrt abc ). Then this could all be sorted out with everyone starting with the same understanding of what is happening.

Also, if there is any way you two can get away for a weekend alone (a weekend for your children with their grandparents?), I hear Retrouvaille is helpful to communications between husbands and wives. It is a Catholic program.

 

[kc456]

(Am I presuming the sin of presumption? Yikes). Please see my last lines below. Now I am struggling with that. I am serious about wanting to prevent pregnancy through child-bearing years and I do not trust NFP, or even condoms really. But I don’t think that matters because I WOULD feel a benefit if he use them so then I’d be sinning too, even if I didn’t really WANT him to use them because it’s against church teaching. i would feel some relief he was. I would feel stuck again. So that is a dead end.

OK, thanks.
No, my teachings did not cover this. I feel really in the dark.
DH went to catholic school and knows most of this, but he doesn’t care. Doesn’t follow the teachings for some things. I am not judging. I am stating that. He goes to Communion and I see he should not.

But I can’t save another’s soul right now. Not even my own right now. I will keep trying.

What good is going to a priest? You say some don’t follow the rules anyway. The one I talked to just this morning said I can go to mass, but not get communion. And that the church would not leave me, even 20 years down the road. That brought me peace.
But actually it doesn’t solve anything. It seems that 20 years down the road if I still use an IUD for child-bearing years, even if I go to confession, then it’s the sin or presumption? Or am I presuming the sin of presumption? Can one even do that? I don’t KNOW what I’ll do in a day, year, decade from now yet honestly. What if what I end up with is the sin of presumption? Absolution is possible? Hmmm. Frustrated, yes.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

OK, thanks.
No, my teachings did not cover this. I feel really in the dark.
DH went to catholic school and knows most of this, but he doesn’t care. Doesn’t follow the teachings for some things. I am not judging. I am stating that. He goes to Communion and I see he should not.

But I can’t save another’s soul right now. Not even my own right now. I will keep trying.

Just relax a little. It’s a process. I can tell from your past threads that you are frustrated and not in a great situation pastorally.
It’s great that you are taking things seriously. I know some things can sound harsh especially on line. Everybody wants the best outcome!
Find a good group. I’d recommend taking RCIA even if you are already fully Catholic. Also, maybe for lent you could devote some time to study the Church. Read the catechism and read humanae vitae. It’s surprisingly easy to understand.
Good luck to you!

 

[Usige]

No! Until about a week ago I had NO IDEA WHAT MORTAL SIN WAS. Now I have read about those elements and more. Now after reading I realize I am committing sin, I think. I did not know the IUD was a mortal sin (well, for me, I am not sure since all I had was a vague sense it was not allowed and little understanding why).

Catholics don’t keep their children ignorant, do they? You mean I’d be fine and not in sin if I CHOSE NOT GO JOIN CAF and learned no more about my faith?

All my Catholic friends out there with IUD’s are fine because they don’t know what mortal sin is? All of my friends I talk to have NO understanding of any of this. Our educations were poor, I can see. So they go to Heaven just fine?

Have I assumed a burden here by seeking knowledge? I hope God is listening and knows I am not trying to sin.

This is not a direct comment about you, but it always floors me when Catholics say they didn’t know that birth control was wrong. I was raised in a protestant tradition that said divorce and contraception was okay (and in some cases good), but I knew about the Catholic teaching on those topics when I was a teenager, decades before I even considered becoming Catholic.

I am not trying to imply that you are lying as I believe you are completely honest, but rather I am utterly confused how a protestant knew it when millions of Catholics never seemed to have got the message.

I am in formation to become a deacon and we actually talked about this issue last night in class. In some cases it is parents who either conceal or contradict the truth. There are several Catholic on this board who openly refute the Church’s teaching on sexual morality. I would assume that they did not pass on authentic teaching to their children or grand children. The blame can also be lain on our clergy and our catechists. The deacon teaching the class said that he has taught on contraception once in the last 5 years. Shortly after his homily the Bishop called because he had received complaints about the inappropriateness of it. When Theology of the Body (from St John Paul II) was going to be introduced into the parish high school and middle school classes many parents got angry that we would try to usurp their position on teaching morality. And yet it seems many parents leave it up to society to teach their kids right and wrong.

All of us have a duty to learn our faith. God will judge us on what we did to that regard. Willful ignorance of the faith will not be a defense. In this day and age there is no reason a Catholic cannot learn the basics of the faith if they chose to. When you had a vague sense that that an IUD was wrong, that was the Holy Spirit tapping you on the shoulder. If you had simply ignored it then that would likely factor into your culpability at the time of judgement.

It is not all on you though. If your pastor and catechist willfully withhold or ignore teaching the faith then they will be held culpable also. That was the main thrust of our discussion last night. We have a duty to teach our kids, our spouse, and ,for clergy and catechists, those who are entrusted to our care. Our one job in this life is to get others to heaven. My job as a father is to get my wife and kids to heaven. I cannot do that by withholding the truth.

I am always reminded of Matthew 18:6-7 where Christ tells us:
“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come!”
It is hard to find that your life might have been lived in sin. It can be a burden or a blessing, but it cannot be unlearned. Part of the calling of baptism is to be disciples and to spread the Gospels. When we learn the fullness of truth we cannot simply look away and hide the light of Christ under a basket. In some ways ignorance was preferable, but I would have never grown in faith or to love Christ in my heart if I had not come to learn the truth.

 

[St_Francis]

(Am I presuming the sin of presumption? Yikes). Please see my last lines below. Now I am struggling with that. I am serious about wanting to prevent pregnancy through child-bearing years and I do not trust NFP, or even condoms really. But I don’t think that matters because I WOULD feel a benefit if he use them so then I’d be sinning too, even if I didn’t really WANT him to use them because it’s against church teaching. i would feel some relief he was. I would feel stuck again. So that is a dead end.

For all this, talkmwith a priest. If he starts to tell you it’s ok to use abc, ignore him and talk with another priest. The younger priests have met seem to have a much better formation/education than too many of the older priests.

OK, thanks.
No, my teachings did not cover this. I feel really in the dark.
DH went to catholic school and knows most of this, but he doesn’t care. Doesn’t follow the teachings for some things. I am not judging. I am stating that. He goes to Communion and I see he should not.

Yeah, things really fell apart even as far back as the 1950s in terms of education, but then the 60s just turned everything into a mess. Don’t worry about it, tho. See? God took care of you and made sure you started learning these things

But I can’t save another’s soul right now. Not even my own right now. I will keep trying.

Just don’t forget to pray for him.

What good is going to a priest? You say some don’t follow the rules anyway.

The thing about talking with a good, knowledgeable priest is that he will know the right questions to ask you, as well as know some answers you need more deeply.

The one I talked to just this morning said I can go to mass, but not get communion. And that the church would not leave me, even 20 years down the road. That brought me peace.

Good, he sounds like he knows what he’s talking about!

But actually it doesn’t solve anything. It seems that 20 years down the road if I still use an IUD for child-bearing years, even if I go to confession, then it’s the sin or presumption? Or am I presuming the sin of presumption? Can one even do that? I don’t KNOW what I’ll do in a day, year, decade from now yet honestly. What if what I end up with is the sin of presumption? Absolution is possible? Hmmm. Frustrated, yes.

Do not worry about years from now. All you have to think about is now, right? You are like a person at the beginning of a journey who knows there is food at the end and is worried about it. You do not know what will happen in the meantime, what God has planned for you in the meantime.

And, during this time, you are at least acting in obedience to the Church. You discovered this and rather than ignore it, you began to grapple with it, and you are abstaining from the Eucharist. In this, you are acting with humility.

Just keep praying and stay honest with God, just as you have with us. Just tell Him you are not strong enough now to make this change. Pray for His help and for these problems to come out according to His will.

 

[kc456]

Is there anything that God’s grace and mercy here might have some impact on because I am not saying, like many I know, “Oh, prohibiting birth control is ridiculous and dated, and I am doing whatever I want.” That is DH’s view. He does not believe it’s God’s will to avoid birth control but a silly rule of the church.

And here I am believing that I will likely go to Hell should I die today, and asking God to help me with all this.

Does that count for anything?

And does it matter that I am not denying Dogma (from what I understand of it)? I am breaking doctrine, maybe? Not sure.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Is there anything that God’s grace and mercy here might have some impact on because I am not saying, like many I know, “Oh, prohibiting birth control is ridiculous and dated, and I am doing whatever I want.” That is DH’s view. He does not believe it’s God’s will to avoid birth control but a silly rule of the church.

And here I am believing that I will likely go to Hell should I die today, and asking God to help me with all this.

Does that count for anything?

And does it matter that I am not denying Dogma (from what I understand of it)? I am breaking doctrine, maybe? Not sure.

Actually this is a great observation by you!

I am constantly frustrated by people who justify, but do not accept responsibility. Early in our marriage we used abc. Never once did it occur to me that we were the exception, or that the Chirch was wrong, I knew it was sinful and was not strong enough to choose the holy. This attitude proved most healthy when we did reconcile with the church and submitted to her teaching!
It shows maturity and logic in your thinking.

 

[St_Francis]

Is there anything that God’s grace and mercy here might have some impact on because I am not saying, like many I know, “Oh, prohibiting birth control is ridiculous and dated, and I am doing whatever I want.” That is DH’s view. He does not believe it’s God’s will to avoid birth control but a silly rule of the church.

And here I am believing that I will likely go to Hell should I die today, and asking God to help me with all this.

Does that count for anything?

And does it matter that I am not denying Dogma (from what I understand of it)? I am breaking doctrine, maybe? Not sure.

God wants you to be in Heaven with Him even more than you want to be there! The fact that you are persevering in this process shows He hasn’t given up on you. Trust Him, and keep praying.

 

[WingsOfEagles]

While it of course isn’t an excuse for not using NFP, I would just like to point out that NFP cannot exactly predict the days you can get pregnant and requires more abstinence than the bare 6 days. A woman with very little CM might only need to abstain 6 days but that would be rare.

That’s the beautiful thing with these Daysy devices! After 3 months, they in general DO figure you out to that scary degree of accuracy.

 

[WingsOfEagles]

This is not a direct comment about you, but it always floors me when Catholics say they didn’t know that birth control was wrong. I was raised in a protestant tradition that said divorce and contraception was okay (and in some cases good), but I knew about the Catholic teaching on those topics when I was a teenager, decades before I even considered becoming Catholic.

Up through HS, I didn’t know much about this teaching at all. I heard it once in passing at a Youth Group function and asked my friend with me…she didn’t know either and said no, I think you misheard, condoms are fine. If I had not joined my college Newman Club (and had a leader who decided to do Theology of the Body with us), I probably wouldn’t know about ABC morality to this day. I have struggled to come to terms with the teaching over the years because it was ingrained in me at a young age. At least at the parishes I’ve been at, I don’t think this teaching ever comes up at Mass.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

That’s the beautiful thing with these Daysy devices! After 3 months, they in general DO figure you out to that scary degree of accuracy.

For you personally.
Please don’t fall into the trap of false promises of nfp.
It’s different for each person.

 

[WingsOfEagles]

For you personally.
Please don’t fall into the trap of false promises of nfp.
It’s different for each person.

No, these are new on the market devices and those are what the studies are showing.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

No, these are new on the market devices and those are what the studies are showing.

Nope:
Every woman and cycle and situation is different.
Some find billings better, others Marquette, others symptom thermal, others ladycomp ( my favorite and the one we found most accurate). Nfp advocates harm only themselves when making blanket claims.

It’s not helpful. And because discussing it on this thread is counterproductive to the op, if you wish to discuss it further please start a seperate thread on the product you wish to acclaim.

 

[pianistclare]

OP, please make an appointment with the priest who was kind to you.
Ask your husband to go to a session with him, after you have met with the priest alone and addressed your pressing questions. That may take a while.
In the meantime, these dozens of questions with well meaning strangers are confusing you even more. I can tell by what you write. People here come and go. But a real priest that begins to know you and your situation is invaluable. That’s what they are trained to do; explain, advise, and guide. Seek the experts in religion.
Be assured of our prayers, but** nothing, absolutely nothing, takes the place of real live counseling with a good priest. **

God bless.

 

[Usige]

WingsOfEagles;14483755:

No, these are new on the market devices and those are what the studies are showing.

Nope:
Every woman and cycle and situation is different.
Some find billings better, others Marquette, others symptom thermal, others ladycomp ( my favorite and the one we found most accurate). Nfp advocates harm only themselves when making blanket claims.

It’s not helpful. And because discussing it on this thread is counterproductive to the op, if you wish to discuss it further please start a seperate thread on the product you wish to acclaim.

I think the point is really that NFP is not about finding something “just as good” as ABC. NFP is not simply about making sure that you do or don’t get pregnant or which is most accurate for a given couple, but also includes a certain level of placing trust in God. One of the biggest lies about artificial birth control is that it assures us that we, and not God, are in control of procreation. When we start looking for nothing but a moral way to reach the same results it misses the point that NFP includes discernment and prayer. It is about understanding that God allows us to share in the act of creation and if the only focus is getting what we want we have missed a huge part of what NFP includes.

 

[WingsOfEagles]

I think the point is really that NFP is not about finding something “just as good” as ABC. NFP is not simply about making sure that you do or don’t get pregnant or which is most accurate for a given couple, but also includes a certain level of placing trust in God. One of the biggest lies about artificial birth control is that it assures us that we, and not God, are in control of procreation. When we start looking for nothing but a moral way to reach the same results it misses the point that NFP includes discernment and prayer. It is about understanding that God allows us to share in the act of creation and if the only focus is getting what we want we have missed a huge part of what NFP includes.

While true to a degree, use of NFP is a neutral act, open to life. OP has given some valid reasons for use of NFP to avoid conceiving (7 young kids nearly back to back, physically and mentally exhauted…who wouldn’t be?).

 

[Usige]

While true to a degree, use of NFP is a neutral act, open to life. OP has given some valid reasons for use of NFP to avoid conceiving (7 young kids nearly back to back, physically and mentally exhauted…who wouldn’t be?).

I never said the OP didn’t have valid reasons and never said anything about their choice one way or another, but when people start talking about which has better efficacy it tends to shift the focus from human sexuality in God’s plan to “this is what I want, so what is the best/least painful way to achieve it?”.

It’s a little like talking about the fastest race car to someone doesn’t know how to drive. Without a firm foundation of why, it can quickly lead to frustration when they lose the race with the “bestest car ever”. It doesn’t matter what the car can do if they dion’t have the skills to use it. In the same vein someone needs to understand why NFP is (or more accurately can be) morally neutral before someone starts sells them on the most accurate way to avoid pregnancy or the one that requires the fewest days of abstinence. Without the underpinnings it sets people up for failure when the particular form of NFP doesn’t “work” as advertised or is more effort than their old form of ABC. There is much more to long term successful practice of NFP than just predicting fertile days and abstaining to avoid pregnancy. When I teach NFP more time is spent on Church teaching than the actual ins and outs.

Moral use of NFP requires an understanding of basic principles of morality first. Morally licit means nothing if you don’t understand why something is moral or immoral; it simply becomes another hoop you jump through. If you get sick of jumping through hoops you eventually stop.