I've been asked a question and don't know the answer

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I’ve been involved with a board about our Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI, we’ve been getting bombarded by Fundamentalist who are trying to discount the Catholic Faith and I’m lost for answers on two points. I’m hoping someone can help with this.
  1. This next statement is taken from The Catholic National, July, 1895 “The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under veil of flesh.”
    I have no clue how to respond to the following since I don’t even know what “The Catholic National” is. The only time I’ve seen Catholic National connnected like this was in reference to the “Polish Catholic National Church” that was in my neighborhood when I was a young kid. My mother would never speak about that church, I’m not even sure these two things are the same.
  2. This statement is taken from Pope Leo XIII, in an Encyclical letter, June 20, 1894 and it reads, “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty…”
    I’m having trouble even finding this Encyclical Letter. I’m fairly sure this line is taken out of context but it would be helpful if someone knew where I could find the Encyclical Letter or could at least give me a few lines surrounding this one line.
Anyone’s help would tremendously appreciated I feel very lost and unable to defend my own faith.
 
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Always_Learning:
I’ve been involved with a board about our Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI, we’ve been getting bombarded by Fundamentalist who are trying to discount the Catholic Faith and I’m lost for answers on two points. I’m hoping someone can help with this.
  1. This next statement is taken from The Catholic National, July, 1895 “The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under veil of flesh.”
    I have no clue how to respond to the following since I don’t even know what “The Catholic National” is. The only time I’ve seen Catholic National connnected like this was in reference to the “Polish Catholic National Church” that was in my neighborhood when I was a young kid. My mother would never speak about that church, I’m not even sure these two things are the same.
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I don’t know what “The Catholic National” is either, but it seems to me there are three explanations for such a statement:
  1. If it is a Polish paper/magazine, it might be a poor translation from Polish or using an figure of speech that would be better understood in Polish.
  2. The writer only means to say that the pope is Christ’s vicar, his representative on earth and so stands in his place as an alter Christi. If that is what he meant, that would be perfectly fine.
  3. The writer is a heretic who thinks the Holy Father is Christ Incarnate. :confused:
  1. This statement is taken from Pope Leo XIII, in an Encyclical letter, June 20, 1894 and it reads, “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty…”
    I’m having trouble even finding this Encyclical Letter. I’m fairly sure this line is taken out of context but it would be helpful if someone knew where I could find the Encyclical Letter or could at least give me a few lines surrounding this one line.
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Anyone’s help would tremendously appreciated I feel very lost and unable to defend my own faith.
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Once again, if this is an accurate quote, all the Holy Father is saying is that he is Christ’s representative to men on earth, which is perfectly true. I hope that helps.
 
newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm#I
This is the website of the Catholic encyclopedia which references the role of the Pope. It will give you explicit information what the early church fathers had to say about the Papacy as well as biblical text. Use it for your background information. There is much reading and cross referencing, but I think it will help.
 
I couldn’t find the Catholic National (not that I tried very hard to find it).

Excerpt from Præclara Gratulationis Publicæ (APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION OF POPE LEO XIII ON THE REUNION OF CHRISTENDOM, JUNE 20, 1894.) It is not an encylical letter.
A great deal, however, has been wanting to the entire fullness of that consolation. Amidst these very manifestations of public joy and reverence Our thoughts went out towards the immense multitude of those who are strangers to the gladness that filled all Catholic hearts: some because they lie in absolute ignorance of the Gospel; others because they dissent from the Catholic belief, though they bear the same name of Christians.
This thought has been, and is, a source of deep concern to Us; for it is impossible to think of such a large portion of mankind deviating, as it were, from the right path, as they move away from Us, and not experience a sentiment of innermost grief.
But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, **who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, **and now that Our advanced age and the bitterness of anxious cares urge Us on towards the end common to every mortal, We feel drawn to follow the example of Our Redeemer and Master, Jesus Christ, who when about to return to heaven, implored of God, His Father, in earnest prayer, that His disciples and followers should be of one mind and of one heart: I pray … that they all may be one, as thou Father in Me, and I in Thee: that they also may be one in Us. And as this divine prayer and supplication does not include only the souls who then believed in Jesus Christ, but also every one of those who were henceforth to believe in Him, this prayer holds out to Us no indifferent reason for confidently expressing Our hopes, and for making all possible endeavors in order that the men of every race and clime should be called and moved to embrace the unity of divine faith.
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Complete text here: aloha.net/~mikesch/l13-pgp.htm

A quick look-round recovered the alleged Catholic National quotation only in an SDA website. Are we surprised?
 
It could simply be that the writer for the Catholic National let his enthusiasm overcome his common sense, leading him to write a dangerously misleading and heretical statement.
 
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Always_Learning:
I’ve been involved with a board about our Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI, we’ve been getting bombarded by Fundamentalist who are trying to discount the Catholic Faith and I’m lost for answers on two points. I’m hoping someone can help with this.
  1. This next statement is taken from The Catholic National, July, 1895 “The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under veil of flesh.”
    I have no clue how to respond to the following since I don’t even know what “The Catholic National” is. The only time I’ve seen Catholic National connnected like this was in reference to the “Polish Catholic National Church” that was in my neighborhood when I was a young kid. My mother would never speak about that church, I’m not even sure these two things are the same.
  2. This statement is taken from Pope Leo XIII, in an Encyclical letter, June 20, 1894 and it reads, “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty…”
    I’m having trouble even finding this Encyclical Letter. I’m fairly sure this line is taken out of context but it would be helpful if someone knew where I could find the Encyclical Letter or could at least give me a few lines surrounding this one line.
Anyone’s help would tremendously appreciated I feel very lost and unable to defend my own faith.
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The national register was something the SDA Church quoted quite often… however, I could never find a copy of it 😉 I would ask your questioners to please point you to a complete copy of the text so that both you and they could review it in context and find the authorship of the text, otherwise, your arguing with a shadow.
Futhermore, quoting a non-authorative source is a VERY weak argument against Catholicism. Arguing for it or against a non-authoritative source gives it more credibility than it deserves. I would suggest that you ask them to use an authoritative source, such as the catechism, otherwise your are basically arguing rumors or opinions, not actual church teaching.

The popes letter is rather simple to respond to… will post response in a bit, gotta run to work 😉

BTW, what religion are those you are debating with? And if you dont mind, what site?

Brandon
 
BTW, what religion are those you are debating with? And if you dont mind, what site?
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I couldn’t tell you the person’s specific religion since they have been very vague. The board is on AOL. Initially it started out as mostly Catholics on the board then suddenly it was invaded by many Catholic bashers. I had been doing quite well defending my faith until I was hit with these two questions. I had been search for two days just to try to find anything on The National Catholic and the Encyclical letter .

I truly appreciate the all the posts in regards to this. I see others have also struggled with finding answers to this.

A dumb question on my part now, by SDA you mean Seventh Day Adventist?
 
The quotes are obviously taken out of context and/or misinterpreted. The Church has never taught that the Pope physically replaces Jesus, and it has certainly never taught that the Pope is God Almighty.

Catholic simply believe that the Pope is Jesus’ representative here on earth. He has the authority of Jesus in regards to Church teachings, but he is certainly NOT Christ incarnate or God incarnate.

Such an interpretation is at least heresy and at worst blasphamous.

wc
 
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Always_Learning:
I’ve been involved with a board about our Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI, we’ve been getting bombarded by Fundamentalist who are trying to discount the Catholic Faith and I’m lost for answers on two points. I’m hoping someone can help with this.
  1. This next statement is taken from The Catholic National, July, 1895 “The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under veil of flesh.”
    I have no clue how to respond to the following since I don’t even know what “The Catholic National” is. The only time I’ve seen Catholic National connnected like this was in reference to the “Polish Catholic National Church” that was in my neighborhood when I was a young kid. My mother would never speak about that church, I’m not even sure these two things are the same.
  2. This statement is taken from Pope Leo XIII, in an Encyclical letter, June 20, 1894 and it reads, “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty…”
    I’m having trouble even finding this Encyclical Letter. I’m fairly sure this line is taken out of context but it would be helpful if someone knew where I could find the Encyclical Letter or could at least give me a few lines surrounding this one line.
Anyone’s help would tremendously appreciated I feel very lost and unable to defend my own faith.
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I googled the above statement and it came right back to Seventh Day Adventists websites. These are lies created by the SDA and I am sorry you fell into this. I am going to the thread to find out what is going on.
 
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wcknight:
The quotes are obviously taken out of context and/or misinterpreted. The Church has never taught that the Pope physically replaces Jesus, and it has certainly never taught that the Pope is God Almighty.

Catholic simply believe that the Pope is Jesus’ representative here on earth. He has the authority of Jesus in regards to Church teachings, but he is certainly NOT Christ incarnate or God incarnate.

Such an interpretation is at least heresy and at worst blasphamous.

wc
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Unless the context is that, as do ALL priests when performing the sacraments that Jesus founded, he is standing *in Persona Christe. *

google Persona Christe
 
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Always_Learning:
I’ve been involved with a board about our Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI, we’ve been getting bombarded by Fundamentalist who are trying to discount the Catholic Faith and I’m lost for answers on two points. I’m hoping someone can help with this.

This next statement is taken from The Catholic National, July, 1895 “The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under veil of flesh.”
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Two possibilities. Either this quote is bogus (made up or altered) or, if it’s real, it certainly is not authoritative. Always make them support their attacks using only Council or Papal documents. Nothing else counts.
This statement is taken from Pope Leo XIII, in an Encyclical letter, June 20, 1894 and it reads, "We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty
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Yes, the paragraph in question is this:

"But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth, and now that Our advanced age and the bitterness of anxious cares urge Us on towards the end common to every mortal, We feel drawn to follow the example of Our Redeemer and Master, Jesus Christ, Who, when about to return to Heaven, implored of God, His Father, in earnest Prayer, that His Disciples and followers should be of one mind and of one heart: I pray . . . that they all may be one, as Thou Father in Me, and I in Thee: that they also may be one in Us. And as this Divine Prayer and Supplication does not include only the souls who then believed in Jesus Christ, but also every one of those who were henceforth to believe in Him, this Prayer holds out to Us no indifferent reason for confidently expressing Our hopes, and for making all possible endeavors in order that the men of every race and clime should be called and moved to embrace the Unity of Divine Faith. "

papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13praec.htm

To hold the place of is simply to represent with authority. Notice who the pope says is his (and our) redeemer and master – Jesus Christ.

Look, for example, at the term in loco parentis:

(in LOH-koh puh-REN-tis) To assume the duties and responsibilities of a parent: “Because Jack’s parents were out of town, his sister acted in loco parentis and punished him for staying out so late.” From Latin, meaning “in the place of a parent.” 1

It’s another case of much ado about nothing. Christ has left a leadership, culminating in the papal office, to rule His Church on earth until He returns. Protestants would agree, I think, that God has also left Scriptures in His place, but nobody thinks the Scriptures are claiming to be God.
 
Ok… the Papal Letter…

First… Notice that the letter constantly uses personal pronoun’s like “Us” and “We”. when the letter uses these pronouns, they are ALWAYS capitalized. Why? Who was the letter written to?

If you see the beginning of the letter, it was written to bishops and patriarchs. You see, when the pope said that “We” stand in the place of God, he was not saying “we” as in the popes, he is saying that “We” the leadership of the church… ie. a collective leadership stands in the place of God.

Furthermore, your detractors are probably interpreting this as meaning that the Pope is claiming to be God, or to be God on Earth… notice he said we stand in place of God, not that he WAS God, or even that he replaced God. If I am playing baseball, and I bat “in place” of the pitcher, that does not make me the pitcher, nor does it mean that I have replaced the pitcher on the team.

Furthermore, if you quote later parts of the letter, it is clear the position of God or Christ in place of the Church.

Brandon
 
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Always_Learning:
I’ve been involved with a board about our Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI, we’ve been getting bombarded by Fundamentalist who are trying to discount the Catholic Faith and I’m lost for answers on two points. I’m hoping someone can help with this.
  1. This next statement is taken from The Catholic National, July, 1895 “The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under veil of flesh.”
    I have no clue how to respond to the following since I don’t even know what “The Catholic National” is. The only time I’ve seen Catholic National connnected like this was in reference to the “Polish Catholic National Church” that was in my neighborhood when I was a young kid. My mother would never speak about that church, I’m not even sure these two things are the same.
  2. This statement is taken from Pope Leo XIII, in an Encyclical letter, June 20, 1894 and it reads, “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty…”
    I’m having trouble even finding this Encyclical Letter. I’m fairly sure this line is taken out of context but it would be helpful if someone knew where I could find the Encyclical Letter or could at least give me a few lines surrounding this one line.
Anyone’s help would tremendously appreciated I feel very lost and unable to defend my own faith.
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My reply would be to first ask for the name and paragraph number of the document they are quoting.

As far as the first one goes. I would say that the Church does not teach what that is appearing to say. I suggest that they write the editor and ask that they print a retraction.
 
The SDAs have created other lies to use against the Church…none of them can be supported by official council pronouncements or papal encyclicals.

For ex: they made up a title for the pope - one our popes do not use…and then claim the letters add up to “666” You guessed it! The pope is the antichrist!

They claim some ridiculous blasphemy is written with encrusted jewels on his hat and “proved” it by circulating a DRAWING of it!
Trouble is…this “hat” never existed, and still doesn’t.

Pope Fiction by Patrick Madrid is a good source for identifying and responding to these lies.
 
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Lorarose:
The SDAs have created other lies to use against the Church…none of them can be supported by official council pronouncements or papal encyclicals.

For ex: they made up a title for the pope - one our popes do not use…and then claim the letters add up to “666” You guessed it! The pope is the antichrist!

They claim some ridiculous blasphemy is written with encrusted jewels on his hat and “proved” it by circulating a DRAWING of it!
Trouble is…this “hat” never existed, and still doesn’t.
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i think they have the hat stuff and more at biblelight.net/666.htm including some responses and “A Catholitc Rebuttal”.

and some more stuff about the popes in biblelight.net/satan.htm

biblelight.net/vatican.htm :bigyikes:
CARDINAL’S RESIDENCE
406 N. CHARLES ST
BALTIMORE
Jan. 26th, '04​
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Mr. H. J. Weaver,
Dear Sir,

In reply to yours
of 18th ?., I beg to say that I
cannot say with certainty that the
words “Vicarius Filii Dei” are on
the Pope’s Tiara. But the words
are used by the Cardinal who im-
poses the tiara at the coronation of a
Pope.
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Yours Truly,

Wm. F. Russell
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SDA2RC:
Ok… the Papal Letter…

First… Notice that the letter constantly uses personal pronoun’s like “Us” and “We”. when the letter uses these pronouns, they are ALWAYS capitalized. Why? Who was the letter written to?

If you see the beginning of the letter, it was written to bishops and patriarchs. You see, when the pope said that “We” stand in the place of God, he was not saying “we” as in the popes, he is saying that “We” the leadership of the church… ie. a collective leadership stands in the place of God.
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I would be careful with this line of thought because the letter is written in response to the outpouring of good will Leo XIII received upon his jubilee . . . I think it’s the royal “We.”
 
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