I've been asked to be a marriage witness at a secular ceremony

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Trebor135

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Hi all,

I’m on the horns of a dilemma. A friend has asked me to be a witness at his wedding ceremony in a couple weeks. He’s functionally agnostic, though was probably baptized as an infant given his background; I don’t know what his fiancée is. They’re getting married at City Hall, not in a church. I’ve told him I would feel most comfortable fulfilling this role if a Christian ceremony were going to take place, but have to get back to him shortly with an answer.

I may be thinking about this too hard, but… what should I do?
 
You don’t have any reason to refuse such secular duty. It is a honorable deed. Witness in secular marriage is also always close to “his family”. You can influence through your Christian example there pair, and they can return , or meet our faith.
 
Trebor135 said:
Hi all,

I’m on the horns of a dilemma. A friend has asked me to be a witness at his wedding ceremony in a couple weeks. He’s functionally agnostic, though was probably baptized as an infant given his background; I don’t know what his fiancée is. They’re getting married at City Hall, not in a church. I’ve told him I would feel most comfortable fulfilling this role if a Christian ceremony were going to take place, but have to get back to him shortly with an answer.

I may be thinking about this too hard, but… what should I do?
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If neither one is a Catholic then no problem with your witnessing this ceremony. Even if one were , an option is that you could witness it and then work to help them see why they need to bring the marriage into the church. The other option is to politely decline.
 
Chrono13 said:
You don’t have any reason to refuse such secular duty. It is a honorable deed. Witness in secular marriage is also always close to “his family”. You can influence through your Christian example there pair, and they can return , or meet our faith.
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But aren’t secular marriages invalid in the eyes of the Catholic Church? Wouldn’t I be causing scandal by taking an active part in one?
 
No, secular (and religious) marriages between non-Catholics are valid. It is only when one party is Catholic that you run into trouble; without permission to marry without a Catholic wedding, the marriage is invalid due to lack of form.

Unless you know that one of the parties was baptized Catholic, you can safely presume that this wedding is valid and participate with a clear conscience.
 
Trebor135 said:
But aren’t secular marriages invalid in the eyes of the Catholic Church? Wouldn’t I be causing scandal by taking an active part in one?
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Secular marriages are valid in the eyes of the Church, although we see them lacking the sacramental bond. We confess that people who are married in secular terms are lawful husband and wife. They are not dating 🙂

Problems arise when pair is Catholic, but marries only in Hall. This is done because they are afraid they will divorce, and don’t want Church to forbid them another marriage.

Even if your friend is baptized Catholic, but has left the Church- you can without much fuss be his best man. With good example, you can actually return him to flock, God willing.
 
Trebor135 said:
But aren’t secular marriages invalid in the eyes of the Catholic Church? Wouldn’t I be causing scandal by taking an active part in one?
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Good question, short answer is no, you’re not causing a scandal.

Canon Law applies to Catholics, and non-Catholics aren’t held to Canon Law. That would be capricious. You can witness a secular wedding, and I think even a non-Catholic wedding between two non-Catholics (unless one left the Church) without risk of scandal.

What you’re doing is offering your support of a committment of love that is legal, that is recognized in the Church (you don’t see anyone calling dibs on a non-Catholic married person attending Mass), but is not considered to be the same as a sacramental Catholic wedding. A civil wedding is not the same as a Catholic wedding because in a civil wedding the couple are not responsible for raising their children Catholic, they are not responsible for adhering to the faith, or for being minsters of God’s Grace to one another. We hope they will eventually come this direction but cannot hold them to account for what they do not know or believe.

So enjoy your friend’s wedding and offer a prayer for lifelong love, health and happiness. You can be the one to make sure God is included in that day.
 
It should be clarified that all weddings between two baptized Christians are sacramental. Even between non-Catholics, even from a secular ceremony.
 
Don’t think too much about it and do it.

If either or both parties were ever baptised they are clearly de facto unbelievers who have no real link to the Church.

Personally I respect agnostic cradle catholics who go for secular events rather than hypocritically turn up at Church “because Mum expects it” or " for the family". They are not Catholics and don’t pretend to be.

I’m attending my godson’s First Communion next week. it’ll be vaguely depressing watching all the 30 something aged mummies and daddies dressed up trying to remember when to kneel or stand. Better what your friend is doing than that kind of rank hypocrisy.
 
Elizium23 said:
No, secular (and religious) marriages between non-Catholics are valid. It is only when one party is Catholic that you run into trouble; without permission to marry without a Catholic wedding, the marriage is invalid due to lack of form.

Unless you know that one of the parties was baptized Catholic, you can safely presume that this wedding is valid and participate with a clear conscience.
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Now that I think about it, I’m almost totally certain that my friend was baptized Catholic. We’ve gone to church together–an Easter Mass here, a few random Protestant services there–and he’s clearly implied that he’s Catholic on a couple occasions. The guy’s not thrown God out the window–he’s not entirely closed off to the idea of him existing or to praying. But he hasn’t had a conversion… yet.

Which leaves me… where?
 
Trebor135 said:
Hi all,

I’m on the horns of a dilemma. A friend has asked me to be a witness at his wedding ceremony in a couple weeks. He’s functionally agnostic, though was probably baptized as an infant given his background; I ?
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don’t understand the problem, since neither bride nor groom is Catholic.
 
Chrono13 said:
What do you mean?
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What is unclear about the statement?

A valid marriage between two baptized persons, regardless of whether or not they are Catholic, is by its nature a sacrament.

A marriage involving one or two unbaptized persons is called a natural marriage. It becomes a sacrament if both become baptized.
 
There’s no scandal at all in accepting it.

Requiring that your agnostic/atheist friend marries in the Church just because he was baptized as a baby is ridiculous from his point of view. Talk to him, see if he is more or less open to God and the Church, advise him to have a religious matrimony. But if he really doesn’t want it and doesn’t believe in it, what can you do? At least be there to support and encourage his civil marriage, his decision to commit for life with his loved one.

What would you have him and all other lapsed catholics do? Postpone marriage until they are converted and can finally marry in the Church with good conscience??

Accept their imperfect reality as it is now and work to improve it. If you deny it now you’ll only grow apart, and so will his exposure to true Christianity, which right now consists of you. Be there, support him, be his friend, and always encourage him to improve, and be always open when he wants to find more about the spiritual source that makes you such a good friend to him.
 
1ke said:
What is unclear about the statement?

A valid marriage between two baptized persons, regardless of whether or not they are Catholic, is by its nature a sacrament.

A marriage involving one or two unbaptized persons is called a natural marriage. It becomes a sacrament if both become baptized.
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Well ok… but there are people who probably wouldn’t agree. If person in not Catholic baptized, then his marriage is not sacramented by Catholic Church.
 
Chrono13 said:
Well ok… but there are people who probably wouldn’t agree. If person in not Catholic baptized, then his marriage is not sacramented by Catholic Church.
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Non-Catholics may not agree that Matrimony is a sacrament. But I can assure you that from a Catholic viewpoint (which is the viewpoint we hold here in the Moral Theology forum) any two baptized Christians* have a valid, sacramental marriage.

*That is, one male and one female, without impediments such as prior marriages.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
Catechism:
1617 The entire Christian life bears the mark of the spousal love of Christ and the Church. Already Baptism, the entry into the People of God, is a nuptial mystery; it is so to speak the nuptial bath.111 which precedes the wedding feast, the Eucharist. Christian marriage in its turn becomes an efficacious sign, the sacrament of the covenant of Christ and the Church. Since it signifies and communicates grace, marriage between baptized persons is a true sacrament of the New Covenant.112
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you don’t even know for sure your friend is Catholic, what is the problem?
 
Chrono13 said:
Well ok… but there are people who probably wouldn’t agree. If person in not Catholic baptized, then his marriage is not sacramented by Catholic Church.
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You are confused. It is the **Church **that teaches that valid marriage between any two baptized people is a sacrament, not just between Catholics. It isn’t an opinion to be agreed or disagreed with. It is a teaching of the Church to be assented to.

Can. 1055 §1. The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life and which is ordered by its nature to the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring, has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament between the baptized.

§2. For this reason, a valid matrimonial contract cannot exist between the baptized without it being by that fact a sacrament.
 
Trebor135 said:
Now that I think about it, I’m almost totally certain that my friend was baptized Catholic. We’ve gone to church together–an Easter Mass here, a few random Protestant services there–and he’s clearly implied that he’s Catholic on a couple occasions. The guy’s not thrown God out the window–he’s not entirely closed off to the idea of him existing or to praying. But he hasn’t had a conversion… yet.

Which leaves me… where?
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Ask him. If he is then you go discuss the situation with a priest. You have to discern if your witnessing this possibly invalid marriage will do some good in the long run as you assist him to make things right with the church. If you don’t plan to help him make things right with the church then you have to ask yourself , why?
 
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