I've no idea...

[Lutheranteach]

As the resident non-Catholic at our school, I had a parent come to me today and ask some questions I could not answer. The direction of our director of religious studies, left them scratching their heads. I referred them to the parish priest for answers, but I thought I would share their issues here and seek (name removed by moderator)ut. Please do not berate these parents as they are incredibly nice and truly are seeking answers and to do the right thing.

Mom —*Catholic, involved with the church, but in private conversations is of the “cafeteria variety.”

Dad — At mass maybe once a month but is Methodist. This couple married in the Methodist Church and daughter was baptized there. THey have never sought to have marriage validated (whatever the term is)

Child —*lovely little girl who entered the school in 1st grade. She has had first confession

The question is first communion. Mom is for it. Dad is not. HE feels it makes his young lady exclusively Catholic and precludes her from attending Methodist Catechism later in life. He’s also rather liberal and as he says he does not, will not, has not supported the Catholic stance on a number of issues and will not teach or help teach them to his daughter (maybe even just the opposite) Both parents have made it clear they would NOT be in parochial school if the local public was up to snuff, but they are thrilled with the education and atmosphere. He’s also of the mind that a child has no business making such a decision as she doesn’t even know all of the 10 commandments, etc. (they skip teaching those of a sexual nature until much later) Our Director says the little girl can certainly attend Methodist services and even take communion there as she is NOT a Catholic until confirmation. The little girl wants to take first communion because it looks like fun and all her friends are doing it.

I was blunt in telling them both I will not even attempt to answer this one, it’s above my pay grade and my knowledge base. I did say he should talk to his pastor as well. Any takers on this?

 

[Trishie]

You did the right thing in referring them to the parish priest.
And I admire you for your sincerity and integrity.
God bless you!

Warm regards, Trishie

 

[John21652]

Both parents have made it clear they would NOT be in parochial school if the local public was up to snuff, but they are thrilled with the education and atmosphere. He’s also of the mind that a child has no business making such a decision as she doesn’t even know all of the 10 commandments, etc. (they skip teaching those of a sexual nature until much later) Our Director says the little girl can certainly attend Methodist services and even take communion there as she is NOT a Catholic until confirmation. The little girl wants to take first communion because it looks like fun and all her friends are doing it.

I was blunt in telling them both I will not even attempt to answer this one, it’s above my pay grade and my knowledge base. I did say he should talk to his pastor as well. Any takers on this?

Sounds as though they want their cake and eat it too.
If the little girl is prevented from taking first communion with her friends, mum and dad will not be popular. Mum and dad should open their eyes and judge the company their daughter keeps and if they like it, maybe they should say, “Hey, Catholicism turns out pretty good kids”. If they can’t say that to themselves, then they shouldn’t have their daughter at the school.

 

[Phemie]

I admire your restraint in telling them to see the priest. Your director is wrong and obviously has a complete misunderstanding of what Confirmation is all about. The kid is not Catholic just because she attends Catholic school and she has no business receiving Communion.

If her mother wants her to be Catholic she needs to see the priest, do what it takes and then the kid can receive Communion after which, no, she can’t receive in the Methodist Church.

As for the 10 commandments, I don’t get that they don’t get taught those completely. I was reciting them every night like prayer when I was 5 (back in the 50s).

 

[Lutheranteach]

I may not have made it clear. Mom is for her receiving. Dad is the one with serious reservations, and I have to admit he made some points I have to admit made sense to me. Chief among them was: If communion in the CC is an expression of agreement with the doctrines of the CC than how can a child who doesn’t know, been taught, or understand those doctrines make this decision? It’s kind of really bugged me that I didn’t have ANY KIND of answer for that. All I could do was:shrug:

 

[rep140]

This is an interesting post. Since the Church accepts other baptisms as valid when does someone become a Catholic? Could a baptized Methodist go to confession and receive communion? Maybe the person who said that you become Catholic at Confirmation is correct.

Does anyone know?

 

[CB_Catholic]

I may not have made it clear. Mom is for her receiving. Dad is the one with serious reservations, and I have to admit he made some points I have to admit made sense to me. Chief among them was: If communion in the CC is an expression of agreement with the doctrines of the CC than how can a child who doesn’t know, been taught, or understand those doctrines make this decision? It’s kind of really bugged me that I didn’t have ANY KIND of answer for that. All I could do was:shrug:

They learn by doing and being taught, the same way we all learn anything. Children are taught simple things and progress as they get older. Nobody is born with a full understanding of everything, you have to learn it. Up to a certain age, parents speak for their children, the same way his parents spoke for him when they raised him Methodist, or whatever, or parents did for you if you were raised Lutheran. If this child is going to a Catholic school and is preparing for First Communion, she is being taught basic doctrines on a simple level, she is not getting the full thrust of it. That comes later. Besides, Jesus said He wanted the little children to come to Him. Just as they are. He did not require them to be theologians or hold Phd’s. He just wants them to come to Him, and that is what they are doing when they receive Communion. That is all that is required, for them.

What I don’t understand is the DRE’s statement that the child is not considered Catholic until Confirmation. The child received the Sacrament of Reconciliation. One of the parents must have spoken for her and decided the child is Catholic, because non-Catholics are not given the Sacraments, even children, except in rare circumstances, and this is not one of them. The DRE is just plain wrong on this, and should be corrected. A baby baptized in the Catholic Church, without Confirmation, is still considered a Catholic. We don’t wait until Confirmation for that.

 

[DOShea]

I may not have made it clear. Mom is for her receiving. Dad is the one with serious reservations, and I have to admit he made some points I have to admit made sense to me. Chief among them was: If communion in the CC is an expression of agreement with the doctrines of the CC than how can a child who doesn’t know, been taught, or understand those doctrines make this decision? It’s kind of really bugged me that I didn’t have ANY KIND of answer for that. All I could do was:shrug:

When a person goes to work for a new company, you can safely assume they do not know every single rule and procedure that company uses in everyday practice, yet they can still be an employee, a faithful and loyal one at that, and learn all of the specifics as they grow in experience with that company. It is likewise with young people entering into the Sacramental life of the Church.

If you look at the basis of all sin, it is turning away from or rejecting God in some way. There is an aspect of choice or willingness that has to be there or else it isn’t really sin. This comes down to a right choice and a wrong choice, something children at that age do understand though not in the fuller sense we would expect as an adult. They are still learning as they go.

We don’t expect 7-year-olds to be involved in adulterous relationships and making decisions about having abortions or using contraception, thus it seems reasonable to put the emphasis on the things they can and do make choices about - loving God, honoring their parents, stealing, coveting things of others, lying, etc. This is part of their formation as Catholics to start with what they can understand in order later on to frame the more adult concepts when they are of an appropriate age to understand them and how they relate.

It’s interesting to me to note these parents are absolutely 100% sure they can and should be making decisions about what school is best for the child rather than waiting until the child is old enough to decide that on her own, yet when it comes to the child’s faith, they don’t seem to want to touch it with a 10-foot pole. Why is that? Why would they so readily assume a controlling role when it comes to education, but want to leave it to the child to find her own way in matters of faith?

The answer is because at least one of them is not willing to make the same commitment to choosing a faith as they are in choosing a math teacher. Saying the decision should rest with the child when she’s old enough is a cop-out; what it really means is “I’m not willing to choose, so I’ll use the excuse it’s the child’s decision and we can get to that someday.” But they never do get to it and the child becomes whatever seems easiest and most convenient to the child, and offers acceptance at the given moment, even if that means worshiping Satan or space aliens.

All this leads to is young people growing into maturity with the idea that religion (God) is whatever they feel like choosing him to be, and the doctrines that form themselves on the cement of such a foundation. It cements in their mind the idea that their education is vitally important because their parents worked hard to make sure it happened with a degree of quality every step of the way… but their faith, ahhh, that’s not so important. We’ll get around to that someday.

Is that what they want for their child? I hope so, because that’s what they are teaching her.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

As the resident non-Catholic at our school, I had a parent come to me today and ask some questions I could not answer. The direction of our director of religious studies, left them scratching their heads. I referred them to the parish priest for answers, but I thought I would share their issues here and seek (name removed by moderator)ut. Please do not berate these parents as they are incredibly nice and truly are seeking answers and to do the right thing.

Mom —*Catholic, involved with the church, but in private conversations is of the “cafeteria variety.”

Dad — At mass maybe once a month but is Methodist. This couple married in the Methodist Church and daughter was baptized there. THey have never sought to have marriage validated (whatever the term is)

Child —*lovely little girl who entered the school in 1st grade. She has had first confession

The question is first communion. Mom is for it. Dad is not. HE feels it makes his young lady exclusively Catholic and precludes her from attending Methodist Catechism later in life. He’s also rather liberal and as he says he does not, will not, has not supported the Catholic stance on a number of issues and will not teach or help teach them to his daughter (maybe even just the opposite) Both parents have made it clear they would NOT be in parochial school if the local public was up to snuff, but they are thrilled with the education and atmosphere. He’s also of the mind that a child has no business making such a decision as she doesn’t even know all of the 10 commandments, etc. (they skip teaching those of a sexual nature until much later) Our Director says the little girl can certainly attend Methodist services and even take communion there as she is NOT a Catholic until confirmation. The little girl wants to take first communion because it looks like fun and all her friends are doing it.

I was blunt in telling them both I will not even attempt to answer this one, it’s above my pay grade and my knowledge base. I did say he should talk to his pastor as well. Any takers on this?

A Methodist cannot receive the Sacraments of the Catholic Church, including First Reconciliation, especially not First Holy Communion!

She is not Catholic until the mother requests the pastor to register her daughters Baptism in the parish Baptismal register, and agrees to raise her Catholic not “Catho-methodist”

The mother has the responsibility after she meets with the pastor and gets the Baptism issue straight to teach her daughter, the father needs to stay out of it after that.

You need to refer this to the pastor of the parish where her Baptism would be registered and she would receive her other Sacraments.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

This is an interesting post. Since the Church accepts other baptisms as valid when does someone become a Catholic? Could a baptized Methodist go to confession and receive communion? Maybe the person who said that you become Catholic at Confirmation is correct.

Does anyone know?

Of course a non-Catholic cannot “go to Confession” or receive Communion in any Catholic Church.

As stated on another thread.

A child under the age of reason (about 7) becomes Catholic when a Catholic parent has the child Baptized or registers their childs non-Catholic Baptism with the parish. At that time the additional Rites of Baptism are supplied.

A child over the age of reason would go through RCIA Adapted for children and complete all their Sacraments of Initiation at one time when it is determined they are ready.

For any child to prepare and receive any Sacrament in the Catholic Church the parent MUST be required to present a certified and sealed Baptism certificate from a Catholic parish. This is available for children who were Baptized in a non-Catholic Community when they are entered into the parish Baptismal register.

 

[benedictgal]

Assuming that the parents are married in the Church, they made vows to rear their children according to the laws of Christ and His Church. This includes ensuring that the child receives the necessary sacraments and adequate sacramental preparation of same. This burden specifically falls on the Catholic party.

The director was totally out of line. There is no such thing as inter-communion between Catholics and other Protestant ecclesial communities.

What should be done is to refer the parents to the pastor, as in the Catholic priest. The Methodist minister has nothing to do with this matter since the child is a baptized Catholic. That is where, I believe, you erred.

 

[Jesus_123]

+Upon reading the original post . . . it is clearly the responsibility of the priest to handle this responsibility and research the individual situation in regard to this child and the parents . . . and the referral to the priest was the only appropriate possible action in this given circumstance . . . and thank you so much for respecting the Catholic Church and the Catholic faith of your students.

Pursuing your original post a bit further . . . two questions immediately come to mind:

1. Was this child baptized in the Catholic Church . . . ? . . . if so then she became a member of her Catholic parish community in which she was baptized . . . and is a partaker of the spiritual blessings of the prayers of the faithful there and of the whole of the Catholic Church at large . . . and is considered fully a member of the Catholic Church . . . and as a baptized Catholic is fully in communion with the Catholic Church and fully eligible to partake of the Eucharist at the appropriate time as a part of her normal growth and development and formation as a baptized Catholic Christian . . . but of course she is still a child and her parents have charge over her soul and as they are responsible for her well being . . . body, soul and spirit . . . they need to talk with the priest to gain clarity as to how this individual situation should be handled and as to how to guide the child . . .

. . . :coffeeread: . . .
The Catechism of the Catholic Church

CHAPTER ONE
THE SACRAMENTS OF CHRISTIAN INITIATION

ARTICLE 1
THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM

**1213 **
Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water and in the word."5

III. How Is the Sacrament of Baptism Celebrated?

The mystagogy of the celebration

**1240 **
In the Latin Church this triple infusion is accompanied by the minister’s words: “N., I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” In the Eastern liturgies the catechumen turns toward the East and the priest says: “The servant of God, N., is baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” At the invocation of each person of the Most Holy Trinity, the priest immerses the candidate in the water and raises him up again.

1. **Was this child baptized in a Methodist ecclesial community (the term used in Catholicism for Christian denominations outside of the Catholic Church) . . . ? . . . if so . . . in such cases if the individual wishes to progress in formation as a Catholic . . . it is the responsibility of the priest to thoroughly check and see if it was an actual “baptism” according to the required Catholic formula . . . *with the inclusion of the incredibly unholy error of “inclusive language” many liberal churchs no longer follow the baptismal formula established in Sacred :bible1: Scripture and required by Canon Law *. . . and some protestant denominations merely “Chrisen” or “bless” a child . . . if this child was truly baptized with the correct :bible1: Scriptural formula as a Methodist . . . she falls into the below category in relation to taking communion in the Catholic Church . . .

** . . . :coffeeread: . . . **The Catechism of the Catholic Church
CHAPTER ONE
THE SACRAMENTS OF CHRISTIAN INITIATION

ARTICLE 3
THE SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST
**VI. The Paschal Banquet

The fruits of Holy Communion**

1400 **
Ecclesial communities derived from the Reformation and separated from the Catholic Church, "have not preserved the proper reality of the Eucharistic mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the sacrament of Holy Orders."239 It is for this reason that, for the Catholic Church, Eucharistic intercommunion with these communities is not** possible. However these ecclesial communities, "when they commemorate the Lord’s death and resurrection in the Holy Supper . . . profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and await his coming in glory."240

**1401 **
When, in the Ordinary’s judgment, a grave necessity arises, Catholic ministers may give the sacraments of Eucharist, Penance, and Anointing of the Sick to other Christians not in full communion with the Catholic Church, who ask for them of their own will, provided they give evidence of holding the Catholic faith regarding these sacraments and possess the required dispositions.241

Every Catholic school has a good many non-Catholics in attendance . . . and the shared problem is actually a very common one . . . but the Director is completely in error and not in conformity with the Catholic Church . . . she really needs to immediately be reported to the Bishop of the Diocese as unqualified and untrustworthy re the position she is currently holding . . . and an utterly unfit guide/teacher/administrator . . . for both children and adults and the school . . .
​

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Mary - guide and direct+
​

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Assuming that the parents are married in the Church, they made vows to rear their children according to the laws of Christ and His Church. This includes ensuring that the child receives the necessary sacraments and adequate sacramental preparation of same. This burden specifically falls on the Catholic party.

The director was totally out of line. There is no such thing as inter-communion between Catholics and other Protestant ecclesial communities.

What should be done is to refer the parents to the pastor, as in the Catholic priest. The Methodist minister has nothing to do with this matter since the child is a baptized Catholic. That is where, I believe, you erred.

I understood from the post that the child was Baptized Methodist, and that the parents were Married in the Methodist Community, without permission, thus needing a Convalidation.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

+Upon reading the original post . . . it is clearly the responsibility of the priest to handle this responsibility and research the individual situation in regard to this child and the parents . . . and the referral to the priest was the only appropriate possible action in this given circumstance . . . and thank you so much for respecting the Catholic Church and the Catholic faith of your students.

Pursuing your original post a bit further . . . two questions immediately come to mind:

1. Was this child baptized in the Catholic Church . . . ? . . . if so then she became a member of her Catholic parish community in which she was baptized . . . and is a partaker of the spiritual blessings of the prayers of the faithful there and of the whole of the Catholic Church at large . . . and is considered fully a member of the Catholic Church . . . and as a baptized Catholic is fully in communion with the Catholic Church and fully eligible to partake of the Eucharist at the appropriate time as a part of her normal growth and development and formation as a baptized Catholic Christian . . . but of course she is still a child and her parents have charge over her soul and as they are responsible for her well being . . . body, soul and spirit . . . they need to talk with the priest to gain clarity as to how this individual situation should be handled and as to how to guide the child . . .

1. Was this child baptized in a Methodist ecclesial community (the term used in Catholicism for Christian denominations outside of the Catholic Church) . . . ? . . . if so . . . in such cases if the individual wishes to progress in formation as a Catholic . . . it is the responsibility of the priest to thoroughly check and see if it was an actual “baptism” according to the required Catholic formula . . . with the inclusion of the incredibly unholy error of “inclusive language” many liberal churchs no longer follow the baptismal formula established in Sacred :bible1: Scripture and required by Canon Law . . . and some protestant denominations merely “Chrisen” or “bless” a child . . . if this child was truly baptized with the correct :bible1: Scriptural formula as a Methodist . . . she falls into the below category in relation to taking communion in the Catholic Church . . . Every Catholic school has a good many non-Catholics in attendance . . . and the shared problem is actually a very common one . . . but the Director is completely in error and not in conformity with the Catholic Church . . . she really needs to immediately be reported to the Bishop of the Diocese as unqualified and untrustworthy re the position she is currently holding . . . and an utterly unfit guide/teacher/administrator . . . for both children and adults and the school . . .
   
   ​

1. . . . all for Jesus+
   
   ​
   . . . thank you Holy Mother Mary - guide and direct​
   +​

Because of the mixture of students the Church has made it clear that Sacraments are always celebrated in the parish Chruch and never the school.

 

[benedictgal]

I understood from the post that the child was Baptized Methodist, and that the parents were Married in the Methodist Community, without permission, thus needing a Convalidation.

Then, since that is the case, therein lies the problem. The child needs to be received into the Church before she can even be admitted to receive Holy Communion. But, even if they were to have their marriage convalidated, the Catholic party would still be obliged to rear the child in the Faith of the Church. That is part of the consent.

 

[Deacon_Latif]

We don’t expect 7-year-olds to be involved in adulterous relationships and making decisions about having abortions or using contraception, thus it seems reasonable to put the emphasis on the things they can and do make choices about - loving God, honoring their parents, stealing, coveting things of others, lying, etc. This is part of their formation as Catholics to start with what they can understand in order later on to frame the more adult concepts when they are of an appropriate age to understand them and how they relate.

This teacher displays a poor understanding of the Ten Commandments if he thinks that the Sixth Commandment is only relevant to adults. All of the Decalogue, understood spiritually, applies to every Christian, in every stage of life. Only, it applies in different ways, according to one’s calling and station in life, and one’s age, etc. But the Ten Commandments should be taught at an early age to all Baptized children; these children are cheated otherwise. They should be taught to recite the text of the Commandments, as well as a brief definition of each, which cuts to the essence of the Commandment. In Lutheran tradition, this is done by means of Luther’s Small Catechism. Here is what the children must recite regarding the Sixth Commandment:

**What is the Sixth Commandment?
Thou shalt not commit adultery.

What does this mean?
We should fear and love God that we may lead a chaste and decent life in word and deed, and each love and honor his spouse.**

Then, as the child matures, he is taught the faith in a deeper way, bringing in, for example, Luther’s Large Catechism, and instructing him about the evil of all forms of adultery, etc.

 

[Jesus_123]

Because of the mixture of students the Church has made it clear that Sacraments are always celebrated in the parish Church and never the school.

Very true . . . however . . . all our various Catholic schools’ students . . . from elementary through highschool in our city . . . have a regularly scheduled Holy Mass in a Catholic Church for them each week . . . and all the students attend . . . but not all may partake of the Holy Eucharist . . . and they are given instruction as to how to approach if they are not a communicant . . . which is where these parents in the original post are going to run into a problem with their child . . . and very much need to get the proper instruction from the priest . . . and where they need to peacefully and positively share with their child what her participation can and cannot be in relation to the sacrament . . . and sensitive self-conscious children sometimes can have real difficulty with this “insider” “outsider” reality amongst their peers in their school and in the church . . .

It’s wonderful though . . . that she has been blest with such a good beginning in life re the Christian Faith through the opportunity to attend a Catholic school and her fellowship with Catholic Christians . . . *may God tenderly bless and help her to peacefully understand and continue to grow in the Faith . . . *

I pray this new lesson will be a positive one for her as she grows in her faith in God . . .

*In dedication to the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart . . . *

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . Holy Mother of God guide and direct+
​

 

[Jesus_123]

This teacher displays a poor understanding of the Ten Commandments if he thinks that the Sixth Commandment is only relevant to adults. All of the Decalogue, understood spiritually, applies to every Christian, in every stage of life. Only, it applies in different ways, according to one’s calling and station in life, and one’s age, etc. But the Ten Commandments should be taught at an early age to all Baptized children; these children are cheated otherwise. They should be taught to recite the text of the Commandments, as well as a brief definition of each, which cuts to the essence of the Commandment. In Lutheran tradition, this is done by means of Luther’s Small Catechism. Here is what the children must recite regarding the Sixth Commandment:

**What is the Sixth Commandment?
Thou shalt not commit adultery.

What does this mean?
We should fear and love God that we may lead a chaste and decent life in word and deed, and each love and honor his spouse.**

Then, as the child matures, he is taught the faith in a deeper way, bringing in, for example, Luther’s Large Catechism, and instructing him about the evil of all forms of adultery, etc.

Great post!
:bible1:
Train up a child in the way he should go:
and when he is old,
he will not depart from it.
Proverbs 22:6

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Mary+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Church+​

 

[Dorothy]

This is an interesting post. Since the Church accepts other baptisms as valid when does someone become a Catholic? Could a baptized Methodist go to confession and receive communion? Maybe the person who said that you become Catholic at Confirmation is correct.

Does anyone know?

A child being raised by parents where one is Catholic and one is not, is supposed to be raised Catholic. This is part of what is discussed during the marriage preparation. When the infant is baptized in the Catholic Church, he/she is Catholic. It is presumed that the parents will be raising the child Catholic, with the understanding and agreement from the non-Catholic parent. The child does not have to be confirmed before he/she is considered Catholic.

A baptized Methodist could not go to confession and receive Holy Communion, because only one who agrees with the Catholic Church’s teachings can do so…and that is a practicing Catholic.

 

[Lutheranteach]

Here is the latest in the family I posted about earlier. The father came and chatted with me at a basketball practice today. He called the diocese to find out the “status” of his little girl. The opinion was that since she is a registered student, validly baptized, and had received first reconciliation that she is, indeed, Catholic. Furious would be an understatement as it was never his intention that she be Catholic and evidently NO ONE told him she would be considered so by taking part in the thing things she has been a part of so far. In fact, he was told the opposite. As he explained it to me he’s not against his daughter being Catholic, but he’s of the protestant tradition that those decisions take place at an age (usually 14) where children have a greater understanding and if that was her choice at that age he would be the first to support it. He feels lied to as he made it clear when the little girl was enrolled in school he was not looking for her to become a member of the church.