i've noticed something about christians

[KarenNC]

So a brief overview of the typical public school education, put forth for your interpretation.

If this is typical of current US wide public school policy (to make hash of everyone’s religion rather than to look at them in their historical contexts), then I have to say I am glad I am homeschooling my daughter. I can’t fathom why everyone isn’t clamoring to get all religious instruction out of the schools rather than desiring them to instruct your children in religion. I certainly don’t want them attempting my version of Neopaganism. Gods know what they’d come up with.

I will say that I have found no evidence in NC’s scope and sequence of a concerted effort to promote Islam as the most desirable religion, nor heard any of my (very Christian) relatives who have children in the public schools at various levels complain of it. Believe me, they would. Has this been a common experience, for those of you with children in public schools in various states?

I knew there were a lot of areas that needed improvement in the schools in terms of academics, but I am sorry to hear that the pendulum of political correctness has swung too far, at least in your case. This is certainly not the status of the education I received, albeit 20 years ago, nor does it appear to be a balanced treatment from your description.

Seems a wonderful example of the desirability of the separation of church and state–the state rarely gets it right according to anyone’s standard. Separation of church and state exists as much to protect religion from government as government from religion.

Thank the gods for the legal option to send my child to a private school or to homeschool. I’m amazed anyone comes out with a reasonable education anymore.

 

[Rawb]

I do live in California But it’s a HIGHLY conservative area. One of my teachers had administration sit in a couple times because parents complained about his anti-Christian attitude. That was the English where I tried to present a Christian viewpoint on the poem. The peom was entitled “The Second Coming” btw, and discussed Bethlehem and a lion moving towards it. My idea was, even if you can find something else there, this is what I found, and why is it automatically wrong?

Perhaps the most ironic thing of all is I would’ve welcomed learning about other religions, as long as it was all handled equally. I’m taking a Comparative Relgions class next semester in college for example. And I do wonder about the accuracy of all the religions we learned about. Like I said before, they didn’t get Christianity right, so who’s to say they got anything else right?

But yes, my Christianity (Evangelical Protestant then) was definitally discouraged by many at my public high school.

 

[mommyof4]

I am told that there are a lot of smart people in Hell

Well, I’m not the smartest person in the world, so maybe there’s hope for me…

 

[KarenNC]

I do live in California But it’s a HIGHLY conservative area.

Perhaps our differing perceptions and experiences owe something to differences in region, as well as to differences in generation.

 

[Contarini]

I believe, a suicidal impulse, to go along with the immigration and low birthrate suicides which the West is also actively pursuing.

I presume you’re talking about Europe, since in the U.S. the largest group of immigrants (Latinos) are overwhelmingly Christian.

Edwin

 

[ComradeAndrei]

1. Maybe it’s because most other religions don’t have the atrocious record that Christianity has.

That is nonsense, you cannot tell me that Christians are the only ones who do bad things.

1. Maybe the people you know have met only Christians who are throughly unpleasant people. Christians are a pretty ghastly lot - they are the worst possible advertisement for Christianity. There’s no point rabbiting on about saints (as people sometimes do) because most Christians are indistinguishable from so-called non-Christians - one can hardly judge of a religion by looking only at the bst examples of those who adhere to it; a far better test is to look at the how the “average Christian” behaves.

It is no excuse to “judge” the Christian religion by its bad people. Jesus told his disciples to do as those who hold the Seat of Moses teach, not as they do.

No, indeed you must look at the most perfect examples to see what the True Faith is capable of doing to imperfect sinners. Do not wallow in the mud, get up and aim high.

It is not a fruit of the Spirit to criticize a doctrine by the imperfect life of the teacher…I would have paid little attention to the papists, if only they would teach correctly. Their evil life would not cause much harm.-Martin Luther

Even our friend Martin realized as much.

And if the averafge Christian is as greedy, stupid, selfish, adulterous, bad-tempered, dishonest, & foul-mouhed as his neighbour who claim to be Christian, then Christianity is obviously not important enough to people for them to want to change their ways; which doesn’t say very much for it.

Or people are too lukewarm to follow it correctly. Note the parable of the sower-much of the seed was either gobbled up, scorched, choked out and so forth. That, in no way, invalidates the Catholic message and gives absolutely no excuse for non-christians. The teachings and examples are right before everyone’s eyes and at everyone’s fingertips. Those who seek will find.

Besides, most criminals in “Christian” countries are Christian - prisons are crammmed to bursting with Christian rapists, Christian money-launderers, Christian wife-beaters, Christian perjurers, Christian paedophiles, Christian traitors, & other equally vile scum. It is Christianity that has spawned the lying, fornicating, deceiving, hypocritical televangelist who exploits the fears & credulity of the ignorant & the lonely, & battens on the thousands of dollars he wheedles out of them with his frauds & lies. No punishment is too harsh for those who exploit others by using religion. They ought to be deprived of all civil rights, like the wolves they are.

Most criminals in “Muslim” countries are Muslim, etc. ad naseaum…It is Islam that has spawned the lying, deceiving, murderous, hypocritical imams and “leaders” who exploit the fears and credulity of the ignorant and the lonely, and battens on the millions of dollars given to them by dirty Saudi and Iranian oil money.

Sword cuts both ways.

There is a great deal to be said for making this religion illegal. It is a fact that Christianity is always attractive when it is persecuted. And it is always sickest & most self-satisfied, when it is most powerful & comfortable. Which is partly why the Reformation was necessary; there is a vast difference betyween the martyred & crucified St.Peter, and “Our Most Holy Lord” the Pope 1450 years later.

Reform was necessary and that was nicely done at the Council of Trent. Disobedience and heresy is never necessary though God can work good out of evil.

Your colleagues are reacting to what is disgusting in a healthy way. If they admired or condoned what is disgusting for being disgusting, that would be worrying; but to be revolted by what is revolting is entirely appropriate. To defend what is disgusting & worthy to be called disgusting would be a very unhealthy & perverted reaction.

Or maybe the “intelligentia” do not like the Light of the World witnessing against their proud and hedonistic secular world.

 

[jmcrae]

Because it is illegal for a potential employer to ask you your religion in order to prevent religious discrimination in hiring practices.

I’m not talking about the employer asking me what my religion is.

You could potentially place the hiring person in a position to be accused of providing you or others preferential or discriminatory treatment by bringing up your religion if it is not a bona fide job requirement.

But Muslims and Jews can be hired, and they can tell their potential employers about things like what day they need off for their Sabbath, and in the case of a Muslim, he can explain that he needs to take prayer breaks at certain intervals of the day. They can also use mosque and synagogue-related volunteer work as part of their résumé.

But a Christian should hide the fact that they are Christian, and should not ask to take Sundays off for religious reasons. (In fact, there are a lot of Christians who work on Sundays precisely in order not to clue their employer in to the fact that they are Christians.)

Your religion should also be irrelevant to your job performance unless you are being hired for a religion-specific position such as a minister.

Yes, it should be. And if I happen to let slip that I’m a Christian, it shouldn’t affect my chances to be hired any more than it affects a Jew or a Muslim.

 

[JimO]

Then feel free to demonstrate with personal examples. Please give me specific examples in which you, personally, have been discriminated against because of your religion.

Okay, here’s one for you. I work in an office of scientists and engineers, most of whom have no interest in religion and a number of whom identify themselves as atheists. A co-worker was going through a divorce and he was a fallen-away Catholic. He began to search and we started having discussions about the Catholic faith in the privacy of my office, during lunch and breaks. Another co-worker overheard our conversations and complained because he was offended and I was asked to stop proselytizing. On many occasions I have heard people telling raunchy jokes or talking openly about their sex life and when I commented about this I was told to grow up, get real, or some such dismissive statement. Another co-worker is Hindu and talked openly about a religious pilgrimage he made to shrines in India and nothing was said. In fact, it was viewed as a culturally enlightening discussion.

Christians might not be oppressed - yet. But make no mistake, there is a double standard. I have other examples I can give.

 

[JimO]

If this is typical of current US wide public school policy (to make hash of everyone’s religion rather than to look at them in their historical contexts), then I have to say I am glad I am homeschooling my daughter.

I’m afraid that Florida is just as bad and getting worse. That is why we homeschool our four boys.

The problem with a religion-free education system is that it can’t be morality-free, thus, the kids are learning somebody’s morality. The predominant morality being taught is free sex, with the opposite or same sex, widespread use of contraception, and abortion if it doesn’t work. One reason Christianity is being targeted (particularly Catholicism) is because it opposes this morality. Since morality is intimately linked to religion, particularly Christianity, a rejection of the morality held by a religion must be accompanied by a rejection of the religion. The more tenaciously we hold to our morality, the more our faith will be targeted. The groups targeting religious expression aren’t interested in equal access by all religions; they want public places off limits to certain religions (with objectionable moral codes), but they can only accomplish this by claiming there is not equal access. If they really wanted equal access, then rather than removing nativity sets from public places, they would add other religious symbols of the season and keep the nativity sets. It’s not happening in most places.

 

[rpp]

??? Asking you to provide details to back up your claim of a systematic program of active discrimination against Christians with examples of your personal oppression is oppressing you?

Obviously not. (I never used the word “Oppress” in that context, only you have on this thread.) Please do not exaggerate or misconstrue my statements further.

The Anti Defamation League is aimed at discrimination against Jews, not Christians. It’s existence (as well as that of any other anti-discrimination group) can hardly be cited as proof that I discriminate against Christians.

I am quite aware of the purpose of the ADL. (I was just citing an example of a more famous organization.) I never claimed these organizations targeted you. To claim this is to twist my words into a personal attack which it clearly was not. I do claim these organizations exist because the discrimination (which you deny) does in fact occur.

You claimed that I personally do such. I am asking you to back this up in regards to me as an individual, not simply link me to more rhetoric about how everyone else “persecutes” you.

I never used the word “persecute” and that is a clear twisting of my statements.

To dismiss factual information regarding discrimination as “rhetoric” is not intellectually honest. Of course, neither is swallowing it whole. That is why, on the links I included, I included a link to an article countering the claims of the other links. Providing dissenting information, as I did, is being intellectually honest. Refusing to believe it is not. Again, you alter what I said into a personal attack.

There also exist groups to combat discrimination against Islam, Wicca, other Neopagan religions, etc.

So now you say there is discrimination? I am confused. Please clarify your stance.

 

[rpp]

I have never denied there were individual incidents of discrimination against any number of groups, religious or otherwise. We do not live in a perfect world or a perfect country.

I did state that I simply do not see a systematic campaign of oppression against Christians any more than I do against any other religion in this country, including mine. Playing a game of “I’m more persecuted than you” (and it is done by many groups, including Neopagans) is not helpful to anyone.

No one is playing such a game. For example, to claim that Mexican immigrants are discriminated against does not alter the fact that Indian immigrants are also discriminated against.

Before I became Catholic, I was a life-long atheist. For more than 20 years, when I could it, I donated money to organizations, including the ACLU, for the express purpose of getting Christianity out of the public eye. The ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) leads this effort.

So **I know **there is a serious and well-funded movement, which gains ground with nearly every court case brought, that attacks Christianity and Christian morality. While they have brought a few cases against other religions, these are generally minor, and did not go to trial.

Here is an example to demonstrate this discrimination. The ACLU supported lawsuits based on local noise ordinances to have churches cease traditional bell-ringing in many cities. Yet just a couple years ago, in a Detroit suburb Michigan City see story], they supported Moslems groups who wanted to add loudspeakers to play the Moslem call to Prayer, violating city noise restrictions in the name of “Free Speech”. (Church bell-ringing is permitted in this city.) A ringing bell is quite a different sound than an amplified voice speaking or chanting for several minutes in a language foreign to most people.

We should all be grateful that we do not live in a country that does actively persecute people (ie kill them, deny them basic civil rights or citizenship) based on their religion and that we no longer have laws, such as many of the ones existing around the time of the founding of our country, that extended civil rights to all “except Papists.”

Oregon in the 1920s successfully passed a law banning Christian private schools. After a legal battled which lasted for several years, and was one of the first the Catholic Church participated in, the US Supreme Court overturned it.

Many states, particularly in the South had laws that allowed special inspections of convents to look for the remains of aborted or murdered babies. This was based on the cruel and sick myth that nuns were regularly impregnated by priests and that convents were nothing more than church-sponsored brothels. Some states have never repealed these laws. In at least one case, the ACLU fought to keep these laws in place for “public health” reasons.

The lasting effects of this discrimination continue unabated today. Unlike racial discrimination, it is fashionable to hate Christians. It is not politically incorrect. In fact it is optically incorrect to cite Christian sources in public debates. But people can call upon allah, or the crystal without even a snicker (at least in Oregon).

While discrimination can be embedded in the laws, that is not the only source of discrimination. To be excluded from public debate, as I literally was, while it may not be technically legal, is certainly common. It may not be technically legal to teach Islam in public schools or have a Neopagan or Wiccan come speak at Halloween; it is when Christians are excluded at Christmas or Easter that this becomes profoundly unfair.

That is the essence of discrimination

When you are more interested in rational civil discussion than name-calling, I will be glad to talk with you further.

I never engaged in name-calling.

You cannot have a rational discussion when one person dismisses what other says dismisses as “rhetoric”. I provided you personal stories and links to sites that presented both sides. Your claim about my information is yet another example of intentionally misrepresenting my position and words.

 

[rpp]

I’m afraid that Florida is just as bad and getting worse. That is why we homeschool our four boys.

The problem with a religion-free education system is that it can’t be morality-free, thus, the kids are learning somebody’s morality. The predominant morality being taught is free sex, with the opposite or same sex, widespread use of contraception, and abortion if it doesn’t work. One reason Christianity is being targeted (particularly Catholicism) is because it opposes this morality. Since morality is intimately linked to religion, particularly Christianity, a rejection of the morality held by a religion must be accompanied by a rejection of the religion. The more tenaciously we hold to our morality, the more our faith will be targeted. The groups targeting religious expression aren’t interested in equal access by all religions; they want public places off limits to certain religions (with objectionable moral codes), but they can only accomplish this by claiming there is not equal access. If they really wanted equal access, then rather than removing nativity sets from public places, they would add other religious symbols of the season and keep the nativity sets. It’s not happening in most places.

You have hit it well. Many “modern” religions or modernized forms of Christianity offer spirtuality without morality. I think St. Thomas Aquinas would say that is not intellectually consistant. That God, who is all good would not desire us to be good. No He would and to help up out, he would set standards of behaviour to guide our free will; moral codes. (Recall that St. Thomas Aquinas argues that evil is simply the lack or disipation of good.) A spirituality that fails to define a morality cannot, therefore, be a reasonable representation of God’s will for us.

Of course, many of these same proponents of this morality deny that God exists, which is itself a religious belief.

 

[KarenNC]

As I have said to Rawb, much of our differing perceptions may be dependent on our different regions. Here is what I see (and I have grown up here–this is a weakening of public Christianity if anything):

The first question folks will ask if they don’t know you is “what church do you go to?” With it being difficult to go a mile without running into some sort of (active) church (if not several), it isn’t surprising.

The local newspaper prints the daily (Christian) prayer and Bible verse on page 2 with the news. Between the two papers (one local, one regional) there are daily columns from Rev. Billy Graham and weekly ones from a local Baptist pastor specifically to answer faith questions and specifically Christian columnists in the editorial sections. Each week there is a free listing of church sermon titles, church fundraisers, church activities (lectures, special music, revivals, homecomings, etc) and a weekly Faith section of the paper which features articles on activities of various churches and individuals. I have seen a few articles about other religions over the past two years, the vast majority are Christian. There is a small weekly paper that is entirely and specifically Christian which is delivered to all homes in the area for free (and without request).

The mayor listed in his official interview in the newspaper as one of his three main goals for the coming year continuation of his monthly (Christian) prayer breakfast. Many official meetings and activities still open with (Christian) prayer. The single biggest pre-election event to meet candidates in the area is a barbeque hosted by a local church. Candidates for public office always list their church affiliations prominently in their literature.

The town has a treelighting each Christmas season complete with carolers from local churches singing (Christian) carols. The local Christmas parade (sponsored by the city) includes numerous (Christian) church floats, often including praise bands, hymn singing, and people walking alongside handing out literature about their church and how to be saved. There is a specific prize category for best church float.

The county fair has a special Christian music day when all the musical acts are Christian, at one point you could get in for either free or reduced admission if you bring your church bulletin (not sure about last year). It also has numerous booths run by churches with the express puirpose of proselytizing and handing out literature (my father made the Get Out of Hell Free cards to pass out one year). The local amusement park holds a yearly Christian music festival.

The local high schools have active chapters of Fellowship of Christian Athletes and Young Life (Christian) clubs as well as Bible clubs with photo space in the yearbook. Operation Save America protests loudly and regularly outside local high schools and in other areas. There are numerous Christian private schools in the area whose groups participate in the Christmas parade. I have had friends who chose to homeschool their children because of the constant harrassment they were receiving on the (public) school bus because they were not Christian.

There are several specifically Christian bookstores in the area as well as numerous businesses who advertise using the fish symbol to attract new business. Other bookstores stock large areas devoted to specifically Christian topics, fiction and non-fiction. Many businesses play Christian music over their PA systems year round. Some restaurants offer a discount on Sunday if you bring your church bulletin. There are still many businesses, including the public libary, that if they are open on Sunday will not be open until 1pm.

I regularly receive mailings from various churches, flyers stuffed in my paperbox, even was given proselytizing material in my takeout bag from Arby’s (fast food restaurant). These are blanket efforts.

As a homeschooler I was able to find one support group (out of many in the area) that did not require a statement of faith (usually literalist fundamentalist Christian) to join in the activities and did not require one to include a Biblical application for entries in their science fair that leads to regional and state (for 10 points). All the organized sports and other activities aimed at homeschoolers are very Christian-based.

It is very common to see people wearing crosses and other very Christian jewelry, clothing with Christian slogans, ties with Christian symbols, etc at home and at work. Christian billboards and bumperstickers are also very common.

I have had to talk with our 4H leader (state funded and by the bylaws secular) about the inappropriateness of planning activities like making Resurrection Eggs and singing very confessionally Christian Christmas carols.

This might help show why I am skeptical that there is a great deal of discrimination against Christians or that Christians feel they have to be “underground” in any way, at least in my experience.

 

[rpp]

KarenNC,
While you do say where in the country (or even which country) you are in, from your description, I would say you are in one the rural or semi-rural areas in southern Atlanic states (the Carolinas, Georgia, rural Florida, or gulf Coast (not Texas).

Things are quite different here in the Northwest USA. Oregon, for example, literally boasts that fewer than 40% of the people claim to affiliated with any thype of Christian Church. Church attendance is abysmal. Of course, Portland is one of those great cities where even a former aide to the former mayor of Portland is now serving time in the Federal prison because he was part of a terroist cell and tried travel to Afghanistan to fight with the Taliban. Editorials in the newspaper here called the federal efforts to prosecute him religious persecution.

This was the same town (and the same mayor) who had anyone who claimed to be Christian excluded and physically (this happened to me) removed from a public debate on homosexual marriage in 2004. That was so successful that now anyone who has ever been identified as a Christian (like me) or any anti-abortion protestor is not permitted access to the City Council public meetings. While done quietly and, of course without the media letting people know, Christians are apecificlly excluded from important public debates.

I am originally from the Midwest USA. The anti-Christian sentiment is much less there, though still present. Unlike the Northwest, ant-Christian movements are not one of the primary social forces.

Yes, the region where we live almost certainly shapes our perceptions. A black man living in Mississippi during the Jim Crow era probably had a different perception of the degree of discrimination than another black man living in, say, Maine.

 

[Maxply]

This whole thread’s been important, and disturbing, and even frightening.

To Karen: I’m in Illinois; your situation is pretty thick with it! Nothing that intense in the Midwest, as far as I can see. Does North Carolina count as Bible Belt territory?

 

[JimO]

I think St. Thomas Aquinas would say that is not intellectually consistant. That God, who is all good would not desire us to be good. No He would and to help up out, he would set standards of behaviour to guide our free will; moral codes. (Recall that St. Thomas Aquinas argues that evil is simply the lack or disipation of good.) A spirituality that fails to define a morality cannot, therefore, be a reasonable representation of God’s will for us.

Of course, many of these same proponents of this morality deny that God exists, which is itself a religious belief.

When our faith is distilled down to its basic components, it consists of our relationship with God (and all that entails, including our redemption through Christ) and a moral code to live by. The two cannot be separated, at least from the Catholic perspective (faith and works). Secular society does not want us to “impose our morality on them” and yet there is no such thing as a moral vacuum, thus, the void will be filled by a morality of some kind, religious or humanistic. Since most religious morality is dogmatic, it has become unacceptable to secular society. They want humanistic morality, which is moral relativism. The result? They attack the source of the morality - religion.

The targeted religions are those that are the most outspoken on the prominent moral issues (homosexual marriage, abortion, contraception). I’m pretty sure that if the Catholic Church suddenly announced that these were not important issues and that people should follow their conscience, the lawsuits would end and the media would love us. BTW - since the Episcopalian Church ordained a gay bishop, have they been targeted or even criticized by anyone other than conservative Christians? No.

 

[jmcrae]

Karen;

I have no idea where you live, but it’s nothing like that, here.

 

[JimmyJeff]

I think it’s because Christians are the only religion that prostylitize heavily. Catholics and Mainline Christians don’t so much but there are a lot of Baptists and Fundamentalists that can be quite obnoxious about it. When I lived in Houston, I had people approach me all the time and threaten me with hell because I was Lutheran and not Christian.

That and all the bumper stickers and slogans that a lot of Christians like to plaster all over everything. It’s hokey, it’s tacky and it’s disrespectful. When is the last time you’ve seen a Muslim wearing a shirt saying “Allah, it’s the real thing” imitating a coke slogan? Or a Jew wearing a Tommy “Hellfighter” shirt? It makes Christianity look cheap and superficial, IMO. You may disagree but I find myself ridiculing that kind of stuff thinking things like, “Wow! Aren’t you just the bestest Christian ever?”

I call it Churchianity and not Christianity and for the most part Catholicism doesn’t seem to buy into as much as some of the Protestant groups.

 

[reborn_pagan]

wow this is the most hits off of one of my threads i have gotten in awhile…-yawns- and to all who worried, im no longer stressed out and im’ back to a calm level…

 

[nkelly]

okay as alot of you already know im pagan, but thats not what im here to talk about right now and this is something that i want to get off of my chest…

latley i’ve noticed that theres been more tolernce for other religions and i’m all for religion of any kind. But latley i’ve noticed that christians get stuck with the short end of the stick sometimes, because for example jewish people dont get arrested for speaking hebrew or wearing some kind of outfit, nor do you see hindi’s getting a lawsue for having a statue of there idol on the store counter (very sterotypical i know and im sorry)…but god forbid, no pun intended…that a catholic whips out a rosery and says a hail-mary, then they get in trouble and are told they can’t pray in public if there christian…and on a joking point i’m sure that soon we wont even be able to say hail-mary in football soon

**Matthew 5
11 Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake: 12 Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets that were before you.

Luke 21
11 And there shall be great earthquakes in divers places, and pestilences, and famines, and terrors from heaven; and there shall be great signs. 12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands upon you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, dragging you before kings and governors, for my name’s sake. **

Unfortunatley the truth isn’t very popular in this crazy world of ours!