IVF and the embryos on ice

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I was reading a little pamphlet on this and one question came to me as it talked about how the frozen embryos are unique people deserving of dignity and respect. What do we do with them?

Since IVF is deemed immoral, does that mean it’s still wrong to implant children already conceived? Do we keep them on ice? I’m curiois if there are any church documents on this.
 
I was reading a little pamphlet on this and one question came to me as it talked about how the frozen embryos are unique people deserving of dignity and respect. What do we do with them?

Since IVF is deemed immoral, does that mean it’s still wrong to implant children already conceived? Do we keep them on ice? I’m curiois if there are any church documents on this.
I would suggest contacting the National Catholic Bioethics Center ncbcenter.org/
 
I don’t know about any Church documents, but to my knowledge, this is currently being debated amongst moral theologians. It’s been some time since I looked into it though.

I see pros and cons on each side, but if I were personally forced to pick, I would err on the side of letting them die naturally, and burying them, as crazy as that sounds. However, this certainly doesn’t mean I’m not sympathetic to the argument of giving them a chance to live. My concern is this will further entrench the mindset that artificially reproductive techniques like this are fine. “Hey, why not just use the leftover humans for adoption services?” Etc. I so easily see in this an extension of the commodification of human beings.

It’s not an easy issue for me to take a side on.
 
I don’t know about any Church documents, but to my knowledge, this is currently being debated amongst moral theologians. It’s been some time since I looked into it though.

I see pros and cons on each side, but if I were personally forced to pick, I would err on the side of letting them die naturally, and burying them, as crazy as that sounds. However, this certainly doesn’t mean I’m not sympathetic to the argument of giving them a chance to live. My concern is this will further entrench the mindset that artificially reproductive techniques like this are fine. “Hey, why not just use the leftover humans for adoption services?” Etc. I so easily see in this an extension of the commodification of human beings.

It’s not an easy issue for me to take a side on.
I agree. The problem here is that there are potentially millions of embryos, and not enough women who are willing to bring them all to term. So how to pick which humans should be born?

The selection process would become a morally corrupt system, where people would eventually be selecting sex, hair color, skin color, genetic markers, etc.

Plus, you would actually have people selling tiny human beings as well.

The whole infrastructure around the industry would be akin to the slave trade.
 
The whole infrastructure about the industry would be akin to the slave trade.
That is my first instinct as well, though maybe I’m wrong. However, it just sounds crazy for a pro-lifer to say they wouldn’t be in favor of allowing them a chance to live via IVF. It goes against the stereotype. I just don’t think human beings should be subject to a commercial enterprise like this.
 
That is my first instinct as well, though maybe I’m wrong. However, it just sounds crazy for a pro-lifer to say they wouldn’t be in favor of allowing them a chance to live via IVF. It goes against the stereotype. I just don’t think human beings should be subject to a commercial enterprise like this.
I know. But it’s not that we are against them being born… we would be against the evil that would most likely surround their birth.

The problem is that two wrongs don’t make a right. This is also why it is so important that we pray for an end to abortion and IVF; and help others to see the immorality of IVF.

I’ve even met pro life Protestants who didn’t see anything wrong with IVF because they are unfamiliar with the number of aborted embryos that are often part of the process.

God Bless
 
This was discussed on hearts and minds on Dec 13.

catholic.com/audio/hm/76

The discussion starts at 15 minutes (approx). It seems that it is immoral (at least if it is not the genetic mother who is to give birth to them).
 
So if someone with plumbing outside or inside cannot have children for any reason and IVF is the best option are you saying that it is a bad thing? What about if we advance enough to have artificial wombs so that no one carries the child?
 
So if someone with plumbing outside or inside cannot have children for any reason and IVF is the best option are you saying that it is a bad thing?
Yes, it is a bad thing. There is no justification for it whatsoever.
What about if we advance enough to have artificial wombs so that no one carries the child?
Very dehumanizing and unjust to the embryos. The Church will oppose it.

Keep in mind that these technologies could not exist without the sperm derived from male masturbation.
 
I was reading a little pamphlet on this and one question came to me as it talked about how the frozen embryos are unique people deserving of dignity and respect. What do we do with them?

Since IVF is deemed immoral, does that mean it’s still wrong to implant children already conceived? Do we keep them on ice? I’m curious if there are any church documents on this.
Scientists are currently working on something called an Artificial Uterus, which would allow a fetus to come to term and be born without having to be inside of a real human.

When this is successful it could allow all the frozen embryos to be born, and could also make abortion unnecessary by providing a non-murder alternative to those who don’t want children and are too self-centered to wait nine months to give them up for adoption. I am very excited about it and I think it has the potential to do great good in the world.

I know there are people who think Artificial Uterus’s are bad in principal, either because they assume every new technology will end the world (a very common mindset in the world) or because they won’t accept anything less than a world without pre-marital sex. But at the end of the day I would rather save human lives.

If a woman was already pregnant by IVF, would you tell her to get an abortion on the bases that IVF was sinful? Because advocating for letting frozen embryos die is practically the same thing.
 
So if someone with plumbing outside or inside cannot have children for any reason and IVF is the best option are you saying that it is a bad thing? What about if we advance enough to have artificial wombs so that no one carries the child?
I think Artificial Wombs would be a very good thing, and would support them wholeheartedly.
 
Very dehumanizing and unjust to the embryos. The Church will oppose it.

Keep in mind that these technologies could not exist without the sperm derived from male masturbation.
This is just wrong. An artificial womb is no more dehumanizing than a dialysis machine; both are fundamentally just machines that keep a human being alive when its body is weakened. Think of it as being like a neonatal intensive care unit; ideally it wouldn’t be needed, but it’s certianly a better solution than “just let the baby die”.

As for masturbation, that is not necessary. A baby could be conceived in a natural womb and then moved to an artificial one (such as if the pregnancy would otherwise kill the baby, or the mother, or both), and then it could grow in peace and be born a few months later.
 
I don’t know about any Church documents, but to my knowledge, this is currently being debated amongst moral theologians. It’s been some time since I looked into it though.

I see pros and cons on each side, but if I were personally forced to pick, I would err on the side of letting them die naturally, and burying them, as crazy as that sounds. However, this certainly doesn’t mean I’m not sympathetic to the argument of giving them a chance to live. My concern is this will further entrench the mindset that artificially reproductive techniques like this are fine. “Hey, why not just use the leftover humans for adoption services?” Etc. I so easily see in this an extension of the commodification of human beings.

It’s not an easy issue for me to take a side on.
That sounds evil.

The moral fabric of society is important, but human lives are infinitely more important. Murdering an innocent human in order to protect an abstract idea is just something I can not stomach.
 
That sounds evil.

The moral fabric of society is important, but human lives are infinitely more important. Murdering an innocent human in order to protect an abstract idea is just something I can not stomach.
It might sound evil, but the Church also teaches we are not obligated to use extraordinary means to extend life. IVF is quite extraordinary, and the embryos still could die in the process.

I believe combatting eugenics is a very worthy goal. Recent history has shown us that eugenics is often associated with death. In the hope of protecting lives through implanting the currently frozen embryos, there’s a good possibility it will entrench death for future ones.

Britain recently released numbers of how many embryos have been destroyed in their IVF processes since the nineties. It was one or two million, I think. With all the concern about climate change and poverty, are we truly able to believe the world community would be willing to suddenly welcome the influx of human life should we have artificial wombs to give them all a chance? I don’t think so. And those are numbers just from one country. Eugenics would happen.
 
Yes, it is a bad thing. There is no justification for it whatsoever.
So if a cisfemale wants to have a child and her hetero mate is not capable of getting her pregnant but IVF is an option shouldn’t they opt for it?
Very dehumanizing and unjust to the embryos. The Church will oppose it.
Keep in mind that these technologies could not exist without the sperm derived from male masturbation.
Please tell me how it is dehumanizing?
 
It might sound evil, but the Church also teaches we are not obligated to use extraordinary means to extend life. IVF is quite extraordinary, and the embryos still could die in the process.
Do we really want to content ourselves with the bare minimum? The rabbi wasn’t obliged to help the maimed hebrew man he saw in the street, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to be like the samaritan.
I believe combatting eugenics is a very worthy goal. Recent history has shown us that eugenics is often associated with death. In the hope of protecting lives through implanting the currently frozen embryos, there’s a good possibility it will entrench death for future ones.

Britain recently released numbers of how many embryos have been destroyed in their IVF processes since the nineties. It was one or two million, I think. With all the concern about climate change and poverty, are we truly able to believe the world community would be willing to suddenly welcome the influx of human life should we have artificial wombs to give them all a chance? I don’t think so. And those are numbers just from one country. Eugenics would happen.
I agree that Eugenics is one of the worst lies humanity came up with, but the reason it is so evil and results in so much death is that it revolves around the idea that some humans do not belong. Eugenics is why children with down syndrome are disproportionately more likely to get aborted, despite how many people with that disorder go on to live productive lives.

The thing about societies, governments, and countries is that they are not living organisms in themselves. WE decide what they want, what they welcome, and what they reject. So if we don’t want eugenics to happen then WE can prevent it by deciding that it is bad. Artificial Wombs have the potential to be used as a eugenic tool, just like nuclear power has the potential to end all life on earth multiple times over; it depends on how we as members of society choose to utilize the technology.

The ideal scenario for me would be that EVERY frozen embryo is placed into an artificial womb (even the ones with deformities or genetic disorders), that Artificial Wombs make all abortion a thing of the past (unwanted children could be put up for adoption before they are born, the way unwanted children can be put up for adoption after they are born), that pregnancy is never life-threatening (because the child can be placed in a life support system where it can come to term without harming its mother), and that IVF ceases to be used on humans (the influx of extra children will more than meet the adoption demands). If we truly see unborn children as being just as human as born children, then Artificial Wombs are fundamentally no different than a Neonatal intensive care unit (the incubators that keep prematurely born babies alive).

I understand that these will take a lot of shifts in social thinking to occur (for starters people will need to let go of their obsession with gene-relation), but when faced with serious problems I think of them long-term. Bartolome de las Casas must have known that he would not live to see the abolition of slavery, but because he wasn’t willing to settle for merely decreasing slavery he laid the groundworks for others to follow.
 
So if a cisfemale wants to have a child and her hetero mate is not capable of getting her pregnant but IVF is an option shouldn’t they opt for it?
In this situation it would be better if they adopted. That way they’d be giving a home to a child who who needs one, and the child would be theirs because they’d be the ones to raise and nurture it.
Please tell me how it is dehumanizing?
Artificial Wombs are not dehumanizing, anybody who claims they are is just thinking like a luddite. Artificial Wombs are fundamentally the same as the incubators used to keep prematurely born children alive.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonatal_intensive_care_unit
 
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