Jack Chick & IHS

[mchale]

One thing that always amazes me about those who attack Catholicism is the emphasis they tend to place on the symbols we use. Symbols can mean whatever we want them to mean. The church has defined different symols and what they specifically represent. It is what the Church intends them to represent that is important, not the alternate possible meanings that others claim.

Consider the following that is more generalized than the Catholic Church. The Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that the symbol of the cross is in fact a pagan symbol (specifically the letter Tau) and that Jesus was not actually crucified on a T shaped cross but rather a pole without a crossbeam. Well a cross certainly looks like a T, but all of us, Protestants, Catholic and Orthodox know how it should be interpreted. If Jesus was in fact crucified on a pole and not a cross it really makes no difference because either way the cross represents Jesus’s sacrifice to any Christian (save those who specifically reject it). Mind you of course, it is even clearer in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches where the crucifix is more common than the simple cross. No one can claim that the Crucifix merely represents a letter. It clearly shows Jesus being crucified. Mind you that might lead to charges of idolitry, but that is for another thread .

–
Bill

 

[daeve]

Going back to the original post, why do you think those people are homosexual? Do you know them personally? Are you judging them by appearance and manner?

 

[Revelation13_16]

Going back to the original post, why do you think those people are homosexual? Do you know them personally? Are you judging them by appearance and manner?

Like a lion looks at a wilderbeast and says “that one is sick!” I have a gift to spot any homosexual I cross paths with.

And yes, their appearance and manner does give them away.

An active homosexual will always end up looking haggard and have sunken in features prematurely, similar to what Heroin does to muscles and gives junkies that ‘skeletal’ look in the face.

BTW, studies on homosexuality show they have an average live expectancy 20 years less on average.

As Oscar Wilde said: “Sin shows on the face”.

And he should know.

For the record though, I acknowledge that homosexuality is a horrible affliction for somebody to have, and I don’t know why it occurs.

But I also don’t believe giving in to it is right either, if one does, don’t take communion.

Love,
Rev

 

[LilyM]

Like a lion looks at a wilderbeast and says “that one is sick!” I have a gift to spot any homosexual I cross paths with.

And yes, their appearance and manner does give them away.

An active homosexual will always end up looking haggard and have sunken in features prematurely, similar to what Heroin does to muscles and gives junkies that ‘skeletal’ look in the face.

BTW, studies on homosexuality show they have an average live expectancy 20 years less on average.

As Oscar Wilde said: “Sin shows on the face”.

And he should know.

For the record though, I acknowledge that homosexuality is a horrible affliction for somebody to have, and I don’t know why it occurs.

But I also don’t believe giving in to it is right either, if one does, don’t take communion.

Love,
Rev

Oh if that isn’t the biggest load.

I have numerous homosexual friends and acquaintances - as many people do who live in this area of Sydney. And yes, by now they absolutely know my opinions and those of the Church on the subject of homosexuality, before you ask.

They cover ***literally ***every part of the spectrum in regards to age, way of life, jobs, hobbies, behaviour, mannerisms and most importantly looks. So there are probably plenty out there that you haven’t spotted, and plenty of straight men out there that you are judging unfairly, and your so-called ‘gift’ is nonsense.

 

[Revelation13_16]

and your so-called ‘gift’ is nonsense.

You are not a man.

Men are far more atuned to the prescence of a gay man than a woman could ever be.

Different physiology, we detect differences in our own.

Love,
Rev

 

[pnewton]

Oh if that isn’t the biggest load.

Must be an Australian thing. But what does it have to do with the topic. That’s was my first question?

 

[mchale]

Like a lion looks at a wilderbeast and says “that one is sick!” I have a gift to spot any homosexual I cross paths with.

And yes, their appearance and manner does give them away.

I will agree that over time you can generally make a reasonable guess about who is and isn’t gay, but unless the person is with their “partner” and is demonstrative in some way, I am very suspicious of claims of being able to determine someone’s sexual orientation just by looking at them.

An active homosexual will always end up looking haggard and have sunken in features prematurely, similar to what Heroin does to muscles and gives junkies that ‘skeletal’ look in the face.

Even if we accept your premise above, that does not preclude the possibility that heterosexual males will also end up looking haggard and having prematurely sunken in features.

Further, as a Christian, the last thing we should be doing is judging someone based on how they look. Even if we assume that these people were gay, you can’t know that they are currently active or that they are not trying to repent and end their sinful behavior. Certainly without witnessing it yourself, you cannot judge whether they are engaged in sinful behavior. Only God can judge what is within their heart.

BTW, studies on homosexuality show they have an average live expectancy 20 years less on average.

As Oscar Wilde said: “Sin shows on the face”.

And he should know.

For the record though, I acknowledge that homosexuality is a horrible affliction for somebody to have, and I don’t know why it occurs.

But I also don’t believe giving in to it is right either, if one does, don’t take communion.

Love,
Rev

One should only abstain from communion if one has unconfessed mortal sin on their soul. If they have gone to confession they are free to receive the eucharist as anyone else who has gone and likely more free than many other people who do go up to receive.

–
Bill

 

[daeve]

That’s a very sad statement, Rev.

I’ve been trying to write a response, but I have to keep deleting things because they’re too rude for this forum.

So this old Italian grandma is going be nice and polite…

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Really, it hard to take anything you say seriously when you make ridiculous blanket statements. Add this to thinking Jack Chick has said something with a grain of fact in it, and I do believe I’m finished with this thread.

 

[pnewton]

Must be an Australian thing. But what does it have to do with the topic.

My bad. I forgot how all over the map the first post was and how misnamed the topic.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Thread pruned of off topic posts.
Please remain on topic as per the Forum Rules.

 

[jmm08]

Convince me Chick is wrong and that IHS is all good.

Love,
Rev

I too had read an awful lot of Jack Chick materials and my best friend was frequently in touch with Jack Chick (I have a photocopy of one of the letters Jack sent to Larry).

I spent several months struggling with this very issue that you are talking about and wrote a document from which I will quote the relevant parts.

"I am not an educated theologian. I never attended a class at a seminary. I am not a Bible Scholar. … I cannot fully rely on sectarian interpretations of Bible passages that seem to some degree to be ambiguous because they are disagreed upon by such men as St. Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Bunyan, John Wesley, D. L. Moody, Billy Sunday, Billy Graham or other significant Christians. I must rely on God’s mercy when it comes to deciding controversial topics – because I can easily be wrong. … I can only count on Bible scriptures that are plain and not controversial. And I decide to count on external evidence such as how I see other people live their lives. The scriptural backing for my method of determination is Matthew 7:15-20. The context of Matthew 7:15-20 is set up in Matthew 7:13-14. I’m paraphrasing: The correct way that leads to life is narrow. Those who find it are few. There are many false prophets. And how can I determine the right way if I am lost. If I am a lost sheep, how can I find the Good Shepherd?..

Eucharist. Jack Chick says the wafer god is an idol and calls Roman Catholics are idolaters (that I.H.S. stands for Egyptian gods Isis, Horus and Seb). John Wesley’s Articles of Faith (article 18) says transubstantiation is “repugnant to the plain words of Scripture”. Yet to me the plain words of scripture do not seem to refute transubstantiation plainly enough. John 6:53-58 has Jesus teaching to eat his body and drink his blood. The ancient Egyptians did not have our current alphabet. I recall seeing the letters I.H.S. on the alter and on a cross when I was a Methodist. An English non-Catholic website explains I.H.S. “They are sometimes explained as the initial letters of Jesus Hominum Salvator, i.e., Jesus Saviour of Men; or as In Hac Salus, i.e., In this (Cross) is Salvation.” … and that “I.H.S. on a headstone signifies that the person buried below is asleep ‘In Jesus.’ ” …

An honest examination of peoples’ lives to make a Matthew chapter 7 determination must be from first-hand information. It cannot be an examination of bad or mediocre people, because bad or mediocre people are everywhere and in every denomination. Instead, the best examination is of the best people who thoroughly follow their Church’s teachings. People who are known to firmly believe the doctrine in question (Holy Eucharist). If the Roman Catholics are correct, Protestants are “separated brethren” and they have some of the truth. If Jack Chick is correct, Roman Catholics are idolaters and a logical conclusion would be that the very best of them cannot bear good fruit.

Fulton Sheen. The Roman Catholic Archbishop Fulton Sheen’s lifelong faithfulness had a very specific focus. Fulton J. Sheen promised God he would make a Holy Hour of Prayer before Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament everyday of his life. As I read Archbishop Sheen’s words, I know he has a very deep understanding of God’s word. One of Archbishop Sheen’s faults was that he would take unusual means (newspapers, TV) go to very great lengths to reach others for Christ. As a young New Yorker, I knew he had a column in our newspaper (much the same as Billy Graham). Recently, I have been reading the transcripts of Archbishop Sheen’s telecasts and they have been very helpful. I just finished reading his autobiography “Treasure in Clay”. I cannot see Archbishop Sheen as an idol worshipper. How could Archbishop Sheen’s teachings be so good if at the center core of his being and his faithfulness he was wrong? Read the following Internet content: catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Dossier/0910-96/classic.html Note especially “Most remarkable of all was the effect the preaching of the Holy Hour had on non-Catholic ministers.” Including Reverend Jack McAllister, Director of the World Literature Crusade.

continued…

 

[jmm08]

"Father Damien. Another Roman Catholic witness that touched my life is Father Damien.

To me, Father Damien is one of the most convincing proofs that the Holy Eucharist is the Body of Christ (and not symbolic). Because he sacrificed his life in priestly service. He couldn’t have been an idolater (as some Protestants call Catholic Adoration of the Eucharist). Father Damien poured out his own life as a living sacrifice in the full measure of Agape love as our Lord described.

“Of all the pulpits from which human voice is ever sent forth, there is none from which it reaches so far as from the grave.” – John Ruskin, The Seven Lamps of Architecture, 1849

Father Damien means more to me because I heard his story for the first time while standing there in Kalaupapa near his grave. I suppose it was a Holy moment in my life that took years for me to more fully comprehend.

One very big Catholic witness was when I went on a tour in Hawaii in 1976 including a day-long trip to the Kalaupapa leper colony. At the time I had never heard anything about him. I heard about Father Damien (aka Joseph de Veuster) from a leper, while I was not standing far from Father Damien’s grave. Unspoken words were loud enough in my mind.

John 15:13 “No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.”

Father Damien died from leprosy in Hawaii. He had buried hundreds of lepers. Father Damien had the penultimate degree of Christian love for his mission field. Even though he was dead, Father Damien took the initiative to also tell me of his love by sowing a seed that sprouted again and again, through leper after leper, through heart after heart, waiting years after years, until the leper told me his story. The story couldn’t have been framed any better or more indelibly. I am afraid of heights, and I had to ride a mule down a narrow switchback trail along very steep sea cliffs – the world’s tallest – just to get there and back.

The State of Hawaii did its best to recognize Father Damien’s Sainthood with its placement in 1969 of Father Damien’s statue into the National Statuary Hall Collection (located in US Capital House connecting corridor, first floor). Just imagine that – a statue of a Catholic Saint in our US Congress. Subsequently, the Catholic Church began to increase its recognition of Father Damien. Father Damien is blessed at this time (two steps out of three to be Roman Catholic Saint). You know something? When Blessed Father Damien gets to be a Saint, our nation’s capital will start to look a little bit like a Roman Catholic Church (with St. Father Damien’s wonderful and very unique statue already inside it). Isn’t that going to be a miracle? Could it count towards his Sainthood?"

 

[jmm08]

I write at now at this time

During the summer of 2004, I struggled with thinking through these things. I began by reading Fulton Sheen’s “Life is Worth Living” (word-for-word transcript of a few years of his weekly TV show). I learned a lot from it. And then I read his autobiography.

On August 26, 2004 I made a trip to Washington DC for other reasons and was suprised to see the Basilica of the Immaculate Conception off in the distance. I was drawn to it and spent at least four or five hours there that day. After Mass, I figured it was a good time to make a decision that would be in opposition to much of what I used to believe. I went to the tabernacle in the back of the Crypt Church (near the mosaic of Christ the Good Shepherd). And knelt for nearly an hour in worship of the Holy Eucharist. My thoughts were many. Intellectually, I had already decided that what I was doing was correct. But I still had thoughts such as “Was I committing a sin? Did I deserve punishment for this? Is this idolatry?”

Within a few hours, I had an answer that I couldn’t confirm and didn’t understand better until a year later (I’m not revealing this answer here – but if you search for my other posts closer to that date or the date August 26, 2005 you will see). Instead of despair and worry, In 2004 I began to understand that Mary knew all about all of my concerns. She was even more concerned than I was about things. And I had a comfort and peace. And I have no more doubt at all.

Rev, I understand that this can be an immense struggle because it also was for me. If you are sincere and think this matter through, I think you may agree with my logic. If not, let me know where you think I am in error.

Essentially, how can there be such great Christians who also claimed that one of their most important sources of spiritual power was Eucharistic Adoration. If Jack Chick is right, it is idolatry and we know that idol worshippers cannot also be great Christians. Idol worshippers are greatly limited to become no greater than their lifeless and meaningless idols.

My question “If I am a lost sheep, how can I find the Good Shepherd?” was answered very soon after I approached the Tabernacle and did Eucharistic Adoration for nearly an hour – not knowing that this was right in front of a mosaic titled “Christ the Good Shepherd”. And the date August 26 which meant nothing to me – a year later I found out was an important feast day of Our Lady of Chestahova.

Rev., I hope you will too find yourself at the start of a terrific journey. There are so many riches in the Catholic Church, that most Catholics are totally unaware of. And I doubt that I have seen or found even a small percent.

jmm08

 

[jmm08]

The State of Hawaii did its best to recognize Father Damien’s Sainthood with its placement in 1969 of Father Damien’s statue into the National Statuary Hall Collection (located in US Capital House connecting corridor, first floor). Just imagine that – a statue of a Catholic Saint in our US Congress. Subsequently, the Catholic Church began to increase its recognition of Father Damien. Father Damien is blessed at this time (two steps out of three to be Roman Catholic Saint). You know something? When Blessed Father Damien gets to be a Saint, our nation’s capital will start to look a little bit like a Roman Catholic Church (with St. Father Damien’s wonderful and very unique statue already inside it). Isn’t that going to be a miracle? Could it count towards his Sainthood?"

President Obama at whitehouse.gov:

Fr. Damien has also earned a special place in the hearts of Hawaiians. I recall many stories from my youth about his tireless work there to care for those suffering from leprosy who had been cast out. Following in the steps of Jesus’ ministry to the lepers, Fr. Damien challenged the stigmatizing effects of disease, giving voice to the voiceless and ultimately sacrificing his own life to bring dignity to so many.
…
I offer my prayers as people of all faiths join the Holy Father and millions of Catholics around the world in celebrating Fr. Damien’s extraordinary life and witness.

May the blessed statue of St. Damien provide protection to our nation’s capital – to be safe from either terrorists or madmen with guns. And may this blessed statue also provide inspiration to our President and our nation’s legistlators – that they may recognize the importance of the dignity and value of human life.

Somebody told me that the statue is the heaviest one in statuary hall (15,000 pounds) so I suppose it is unlikely to be moved. I suppose it can only be placed where it is due to floor loading capacity limits.

jmm08

 

[Holly3278]

Don’t believe anything that Chick says in his “tracts”. They are nothing but pure garbage. That said, I, for one, have never seen a host with the letters IHS on them.

 

[Bluegoat]

Well, I am failing to understand why you think it is a problem for non-Catholics to be very reverent to Mary. You would likely find that in any Anglo-Catholic parish, or Orthodox ones without fail. Why this bothers you is quite obscure to me, and suggests that you haven’t really bothered to learn much about the parish you visited.

As well, I am not sure how you knew much about the people who were obviously homosexuals, enough to judge whether they ought to be taking the Eucharist. Without more specifics on what sort of parish it is I can’t comment on what their attitude to homosexuality is “supposed” to be, but you seem to me to be making assumptions.

Perhaps rather than visiting these places just once, you should make a commitment to go for a month, and then re-evaluate. Occasionally going once may be enough to see that a group is not for you, but often it will give you only a very superficial view, especially if you are not already well-grounded in the theology and history of the group.