James 2:24?

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NKJV: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Even in a Protestant Bible it’s saying Faith alone does not justify people
 
How do Protestants stand with Faith Alone with James 2:24 says otherwise?
 
How do Protestants stand with Faith Alone with James 2:24 says otherwise?
I heard an apologist say that some folks would assert that faith in James 2 is an intellectual faith and not the faith that saves. This sounds like an invention and wrongly some say it would be a discovery.
 
How do Protestants stand with Faith Alone with James 2:24 says otherwise?
In order to properly understand James 2:24, you have to go back to James 2:18:

“But someone may well say, ‘You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.’”

James is not saying that ‘faith+works’ saves a person. What he is saying is that ‘genuine’ faith is DEMONSTRATED by our works. Anyone can claim they have faith, which is why James says ‘You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder’ (James 2:19). Demons have faith in Who God is - Jesus our Savior. However, if the ‘kind’ of faith we claim to have isn’t reflected in our works, then James says that it’s NOT genuine, but rather our faith is ‘dead’ (James 2:17,36).

Or, to put it another way:

Faith+works does not lead -----> salvation, but rather:

Salvation leads --------> good works, which reflect ‘genuine’ faith. See Ephesians 2:8-10; Isaiah 64:6; Romans 5:1

Hope this helps. 🙂

In Christ,
Steve.
 
So one who has no good works cannot be saved?
According to Ephesians 2:8-10, we are saved by grace through faith, which ‘equips’ us with good works, but Paul says that we are NOT saved by works, nor ‘of ourselves,’ because grace is a gift from God. Another ward, a person is saved by the graceful mercy of God Who gives us the gift of faith to believe in Him. This ‘genuine’ faith is then demonstrated by good works. If a person has genuine faith, good works will be the result of it, otherwise, this ‘fake faith’ is ‘dead faith.’
 
According to Ephesians 2:8-10, we are saved by grace through faith, which ‘equips’ us with good works, but Paul says that we are NOT saved by works, nor ‘of ourselves,’ because grace is a gift from God. Another ward, a person is saved by the graceful mercy of God Who gives us the gift of faith to believe in Him. This ‘genuine’ faith is then demonstrated by good works. If a person has genuine faith, good works will be the result of it, otherwise, this ‘fake faith’ is ‘dead faith.’
That are a lot of words for saying one without works wont be saved. When Paul speaks about how works cannot save us, he’s talking about works of the Law, not good works like those mentioned in the sermon on the Mount.

A dead faith does not save, only genuine faith does. But if one has no works his faith is dead. Genuine faith requires good works. We are saved by genuine faith alone 😃
 
James 2 in context.
14] What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15] If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16] and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17] So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18] But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19] You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder. 20] Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23] and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25] And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Can dead faith save someone?

Also, there is Matthew 25:31-46 which further teaches that without works no one is saved.
31] “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33] and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34] Then the King will say to those at his right hand, Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; **35**] for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, **36**] I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' **37**] Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38] And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39] And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40] And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' **41**] Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42] for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44] Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' **45**] Then he will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
 
A few of the canons from the council of Trent on Justification

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIII.-lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,-except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema.
 
In order to properly understand James 2:24, you have to go back to James 2:18:

“But someone may well say, ‘You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.’”

James is not saying that ‘faith+works’ saves a person. What he is saying is that ‘genuine’ faith is DEMONSTRATED by our works. Anyone can claim they have faith, which is why James says ‘You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder’ (James 2:19). Demons have faith in Who God is - Jesus our Savior. However, if the ‘kind’ of faith we claim to have isn’t reflected in our works, then James says that it’s NOT genuine, but rather our faith is ‘dead’ (James 2:17,36).

Or, to put it another way:

Faith+works does not lead -----> salvation, but rather:

Salvation leads --------> good works, which reflect ‘genuine’ faith. See Ephesians 2:8-10; Isaiah 64:6; Romans 5:1

Hope this helps. 🙂

In Christ,
Steve.
An excellent explanation Steve…👍
In Strict Catholic explanations we might use differing terminology but in it’s essentials this is very Catholic.

The only real problem I’ve noted is that there are those who strive so hard to separate faith from works that some people get the wrong idea. Instead of hearing that salvation comes “apart from works” (which none-the less are still a requirement of faith), they hear that salvation comes from faith without works (which can lead to living a life devoid of true conversion - or relapsing into sin in a false confidence in “faith alone” to save)
Not sure if I explained that well but I hope others get my meaning…
So one who has no good works cannot be saved?
This is a tricky question that gets to the root of the controversy that occasionally arises.
Many - even most teachings reflect the normative outlook. In this case the norm is that a person comes to Christ, comes to faith and then lives for sometime after. Such a person has ample opportunity to, “Do the Will of the Father”, as described in Mt 25:31-46 among other places. So this is the “norm” and such is what St James is speaking to in his epistle.

Of course then there are “non-normative” situations. For example, if a person comes to belief and conversion but dies immediately afterward, (before they are able to do any works), then certainly they will be saved for they would have performed good works had they lived.

Hope this helps.

Peace
James
 
That are a lot of words for saying one without works wont be saved. When Paul speaks about how works cannot save us, he’s talking about works of the Law, not good works like those mentioned in the sermon on the Mount.

A dead faith does not save, only genuine faith does. But if one has no works his faith is dead. Genuine faith requires good works. We are saved by genuine faith alone 😃
Actually there is an interesting phenomenon mainly within Protestant circles which seeks to reappraise Paul’s writings within a 1st century Jewish context known as the New Perspective(s) on Paul. The funny thing is, despite their disagreements with one another over some issues, ‘New Perspectivists’ all agree that the traditional Protestant way of reading Paul is flawed all along.
 
This is a tricky question that gets to the root of the controversy that occasionally arises.
Many - even most teachings reflect the normative outlook. In this case the norm is that a person comes to Christ, comes to faith and then lives for sometime after. Such a person has ample opportunity to, “Do the Will of the Father”, as described in Mt 25:31-46 among other places. So this is the “norm” and such is what St James is speaking to in his epistle.

Of course then there are “non-normative” situations. For example, if a person comes to belief and conversion but dies immediately afterward, (before they are able to do any works), then certainly they will be saved for they would have performed good works had they lived.

Hope this helps.
It does. But getting baptised is a work and it is good.
 
You’ve hit a nail right on the head. Our non-Catholic brother / sister posting here is bringing more context, but not the whole context. Let’s look at some more of James Chapter 2:

“Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active **along with **his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

You can see here that Faith IS Works. Faith does not “lead to” works, thats playing acrobatics to get around what is in the plain text here, Faith and Works are married - a Catholic kind of marriage - and cannot be seperated.

Just as you cannot have works alone that force God to give you that initial saving Grace through Faith - ala the Romans verse our Non-Catholic Brother / Sister stated above (that is a free gift from God, however, we must co-operate with God to recieve it) - you also cannot have a simple mental exercise belief alone either.

Specifically to no “Works of the Law”: that is a specific phrase refering to the ritualistic deeds of Temple practices, not Good Deeds of, say, the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew.

This is seen by the ONLY OTHER USE of this phrase in all of ancient writtings: scroll # 4QMMT. Look up the translation of that scroll. It shows what “Works of the Law” means. Things like making sure you use the right kind of wood for the sacred fires, kicking all the dogs out of Jerusalem, keeping the blind and lame out of the temple, discussion over whether or not “uncleanliness” can travel up a water stream from an ‘unclean’ bowl to the ‘clean’ pitcher. These are Works of the Law.

As you read, notice there is NO mention of giving alms to the poor, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving drink to the thirsty, burying the dead, shelter the homeless, visit the sick and imprisoned, and ransoming the captives. Etc.

You will also notice that in the passage of the Sheep and the Goats, BOTH the Sheep and the Goats have “faith” in Christ as Lord: they BOTH call Him “Lord”. This illustrates a difference in the meaning of the word “faith” between Catholics and Non-Catholics. For Catholics the word “Faith” means “Trust”. To non-Catholics (for the most part) the word “Faith” means “believe”.

So what is the difference? Let me illustrate with something right up my alley: I’m a cop. I wear a bullet resistant vest. I have observed videos of bullet resistant vest being tested. I’ve seen that the bullets do not penetrate. I have seen, and read testimonies of people who have been shot and were saved by wearing such a vest. You can do the same thing. Just do an internet search and you’ll find plenty. Do you believe that my vest can prevent bullets from penetrating into the vital organs it is protecting? Good!

Now can we put my vest on you and shoot you? (This is just a hypothetical. I am NOT advocating this.)

This is the difference between “belief” and “trust” but both words translate “Faith” in Sacred Scripture. Belief is a mental exercise, Trust is belief in action. Trust INCLUDES belief and cannot be seperate from it.

Everywhere in Sacred Scripture where Christ says “Your Faith has saved you”. He is correct: their TRUST has saved them. Look carefully, everytime those people performed an action - even if it was only going to and talking to Jesus. (Or touching his prayer shawl).

Take ALL of Sacred Scripture in it’s entirety. If all you have to do is mental exercise about belief ( with deeds as only a result of such ‘belief’) why, then, do we have to “work out” our own salvation with fear and trembling? Why is there anything in the Bible over and beyond “Accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior”? The Goats believed Christ was “Lord” too. Even the demons “believe”… (cf James 2:19)

Hope this helps you. God Bless :signofcross:
 
It does. But getting baptised is a work and it is good.
Very true and I think this touches on a point that is worth bringing out.
The necessity of “works” cannot be defined as “discreet” things. When we begin to do this we get into the very thing that was so problematic for the Jews…How many times do I forgive, how much do I tithe, and so on…
I’ve even seen this outlook here on CAF…"how much do I have to give/do etc…

Works, like Faith must be an attitude. Something that permeates our very being. We don’t do works out of some legal requirement but rather because they well up in us and pour out. When this happens we are not pouring out ourselves but rather we are pouring out God through us. In short we must reach the point of being so immersed (baptized) in God that His grace permeates (infuses) our whole being…Anything less means we still have not completed our journey toward the perfection to which we are called (Mt 5:48)

Peace
James
 
Very true and I think this touches on a point that is worth bringing out.
The necessity of “works” cannot be defined as “discreet” things. When we begin to do this we get into the very thing that was so problematic for the Jews…How many times do I forgive, how much do I tithe, and so on…
I’ve even seen this outlook here on CAF…"how much do I have to give/do etc…

Works, like Faith must be an attitude. Something that permeates our very being. We don’t do works out of some legal requirement but rather because they well up in us and pour out. When this happens we are not pouring out ourselves but rather we are pouring out God through us. In short we must reach the point of being so immersed (baptized) in God that His grace permeates (infuses) our whole being…Anything less means we still have not completed our journey toward the perfection to which we are called (Mt 5:48)

Peace
James
👍
 
In Ephesians, Paul is speaking about how a person is initially justified and becomes a Christian apart from works by faith and baptism. James is speaking about how a Christian maintains his justification by faith and good works.
 
“Faith and Works are married - a Catholic kind of marriage - and cannot be separated.”

Yes: faith-works/soul-body, a single human being manifesting faith in the spiritual dimensions, and works in the physical dimensions.
 
Christ does not want any old faith. He want’s the fullness of faith.

He wants you to be full of faith.

Faith-fullness.

Faithfulness.

-Tim-
 
Faith is not discreet.

Salvation is not discreet.

Faith is continuing.

Salvation is continuing.

Mortal sin disrupts the continuance.

The devil wants people to believe that there is no such thing as mortal sin so that people won’t worry about being in a state of grace or not so he can laughingly take them off to Hell!

Once saved always saved is EASY–it’s an invention of the devil.

Look–no one believed it for 1500 years and the church didn’t teach it for 1500 years.

Are you going to tell me that for 1500 years that God didn’t care that His people were being taught the wrong way?! Does that make sense?!

Having read these words if you do ascribe to once saved always saved–you can go back to that EASY way but at judgement you will not be able to say that you never heard otherwise!

Do you want the EASY way or do you want Jesus’ way like when He said “NARROW is the way to eternal life and few there are that find it.”

Once saved always saved is not NARROW–it is WIDE and EASY!!!
 
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