James and Paul in conflict?

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It has been argued by many scholars that James the Just (the relative of our Lord) and Paul the Apostle had a falling out, and the incident at Antioch (Galatians 2:11-15) is thought to have been when this happened. The text says that certain men “from James” (in that he sent them) came to Antioch from Jerusalem to rebuke the Jewish believers in Antioch believers for eating with the Gentiles. The Jewish believers there, including Peter, seemed to have followed James in this; and although the traditional viewpoint is that Paul won when rebuking Peter, the opposite appears true since there is no indication in Galatians that Peter or any of the Jews came to Paul’s position, and if they in fact had then why doesn’t Paul mention this? Surely it would have greatly helped his cause if he had done so. Instead the text imply’s that Paul was more likely “defeated”, and soon left Antioch after this.

Another fact is that Paul, in various letters, mentions making a collection for the Church in Jerusalem (Romans 15:25-27, 1 Corinthians 8-9), yet the Book of Acts makes no mention of this collection, and many scholars suggest this is because the Church in Jerusalem, under the leadership of James, rejected Paul’s collection when he arrived in Jerusalem. The Book of Acts also makes no mention about the incident at Antioch, which suggests to scholars that the author of Acts did not want to present any conflict between the top leaders of the early Church - the conflict between James and Paul being one of them.

What is to be made of this?
 
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Paul had a ‘falling out’ with Mark also.
Luke ( author of Acts ) tagged along with Paul.
Have you seen the movie “Peter and Paul”
Anthony Hopkins plays Paul.

Anyways, Peter had that dream about clean / unclean food.
Even Jesus talked about eating and drink him -
Many followers fell away - after that !

I heard many forgeries were happening - fake news -
Imagine - rats subverting Paul’s message - with fake letters -

Paul had his message -
I happen to love the book of James -
The two letters of Peter -
All 66 books - are a stain glass window -
with the Gospels being the main design 😇
 
Scholars also claimed that the Gospel of St. John was faulty since it mentioned the miracle at the pool of

The author of John also knew Jerusalem well, as is evident from the geographic and place name information throughout the book. He mentions, among others, the Sheep Gate Pool (Bethesda), the Siloam Pool and Jacob’s Well. The geographic specificity lends credence to the John’s account. (https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org...-the-gospel-of-john-and-how-historical-is-it/)

Controversial Bethesda pool discovered exactly where John said it was (https://opentheword.org/2014/09/02/...ol-discovered-exactly-where-john-said-it-was/)

Until the 19th century, there was no evidence outside of John’s Gospel for the existence of this pool; therefore, scholars argued that the gospel was written later, probably by someone without first-hand knowledge of the city of Jerusalem, and that the “pool” had only a metaphorical, rather than historical, significance.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pool_of_Bethesda)

…it is not the first time that “scholars” have jumped to the wrong conclusions, specially when dealing with Scriptures.

The only confrontation found in Acts is that of Paul and John Mark–he felt that John should not be allowed to continue with him; this seeming coming of heads was quickly deflated by Barnabas as he took Mark with him (Acts 15:39)… as for St. James rejecting St. Barnabas’ collection, what type of Teaching would he have been? It’s like the claim that Jesus gave away His Mom while the Virgin many other children could have taken her into their home–if not for Jesus’ blatant disregard for their right and obligations to care for Mary.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
And what does this have to do with anything being discussed?
 
That’s right ! 73 books - thank you for that correction !
That was my King James Version - speaking - lol 🙂
 
thephilosopher6 said:
What is to be made of this?
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This might mean that early Christians did not consider themselves to be apart from Judaism. James might have used his status of a relative of our Lord to gain authority for a Judaistic understanding of Jesus’ ministry/
 
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St Paul has tension in general with other apostles sometimes. 1st generation Christianity struggled immensely in issues related to preserving Jewish identity.
 
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The Paul-centric notion of salvation by faith, but that from actual faith, works flow, and that a work done for salvation rather than from faith is a dead work.

The James-centric notion of salvation by faith and works, but that only works flowing from faith matter, and that others are dead.

Once someone finds an example where the result of these is different, I’ll start caring.

hawk
 
I’m quite pedestrian… I lack the sophistication to hold a discourse… but I thought I was quite eloquent in pointing out that “scholars” and “theologians” jump to conclusions based on their own preconceptions.

What conflict?

Where is that in Scriptures?

Do they take into consideration that by refusing St. Paul’s “collection” they are falling into “emotional” response and inciting schism?

If assistance to the poor, the needy, and Christian ministry can be rejected because of “hurt feelings” how are these Apostles any different than the pagans around them?

Where in the chapters of “change” (St. Matthew 5 through 7) does arrogance, hatred, payback, and pride fits in?

…or are we to believe that scholars, thousands of years removed, know the heart and mind of the Apostles as they Wrote and Lived the history of the Church?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
…yeah, if this were a non-Catholic site I would not have chimed in… 😉

Maran atha!

Angel
 
I would not say immensely but I must concur; it is the reason why Jesus warned:
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. (St. John 16)
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Much of Church Doctrine and vocabulary would seem foreign to them… and even as a challenge to their Belief–just the issue of the Word being God, and the Holy Spirit being God… all in equal standing with the Old Covenant’s Revealed: “I AM Yahweh, your God; there is no other; no one existed before, with Me, nor after Me…” (paraphrased)

…then they would have to put away the Mosaic practices (“sacrifices and holocaust you did not want”); stop Worshiping in the Temple and synagogues and Worship God in Spirit and in Truth… and the Unfolding continues…

Maran atha!

Angel
 
On doctrine they were of one mind. The relationship, however, was pretty strained.
 
What?

That’s like saying that they “believed” Jesus’ Command to Unity and Love but that they chose to hold divisions and spats and favoritism was the rule of the day; yet, all in accordance to the doctrine which they unanimously taught… really?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Well when Paul went to Jerusalem before his arrest, he met with James who ordered him to submit to the Jewish purification customs. James was leader of the Church in Jerusalem, so he was pretty concerned with maintaining the status quo as Jews who believed in Christ. Paul’s actions, from his perspective, were a threat to that.
 
Again, I am not saying that everything was working smoothly; the Church was in development stages; but to enhance the account as a confrontation and division seems to be the means to inject “drama” into the development.

We can take the passages and dissect them right here if you like…

Consider St. Paul’s experience when he was met by Christ… some people continue to jump to the conclusion that he fell to the ground from a horse… the passage does not state that… but many read into it such understanding…

I welcome your efforts.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
jcrichton said:
Again, I am not saying that everything was working smoothly; the Church was in development stages; but to enhance the account as a confrontation and division seems to be the means to inject “drama” into the development.
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Well, it’s not hard to imagine Paul saying “Why are you acting partial to the Gentiles? Christ wouldn’t have wanted that?” And James responding, “Hey, I grew up with Him, you didn’t.”
 
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