James, Brother of Jesus?

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Okay; let’s look at all the warnings about adding or subtracting and it is quite fitting that the very last words of the last scroll of the NT would have such a warning and I believe it can be reasonably shown that it applies to all of Scripture. If for no other reason; the Bible is the very words of God and adding or subtracting from God’s word would not please Him; probably anger Him. Why? Who would want to add or subtract but someone with an evil agenda; The devil was the first starting in the Garden of Eden. Some or many believe verse 18 is John speaking, but verse 20 says He who testifies, which is the Lord Jesus; therefore it is probable that verse 18 is the Lord speaking and not John. (just a side note w/o much significance as far as I understand)

Deuteronomy 4:2 “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.”

Did the Jews do that? Yes What was the consequences? Do you think it makes sense that it would apply to all God has revealed?

Deuteronomy 12:32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.” Do you think it is mere coincidence that this warning was put at the end of the Pentateuch? I don’t think so.

Proverbs 30:5-6 "Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

Does this just apply to Proverbs or this verse or all?

Jeremiah 26:2 "Thus says the LORD, 'Stand in the court of the LORD’S house, and speak to all the cities of Judah who have come to worship {in} the LORD’S house all the words that I have commanded you to speak to them. Do not omit a word!

Do you believe he warnings forbids any alteration of this book, the Bible, and any alteration of anything that God has ever written, which goes for all sixty-six books.
I say 66 because the Apocrypha; which have been added to various religions, against all the warnings, have geographical and historical errors and the writer of Maccabees states directly that it is not inspired (If I recall 2 Maccabees). The early Christian teachers used the Apocrypha as an enhancement tool to teach spiritual truths already used in the Bible , but did not consider it inspired. Why? Because it isn’t; but some religions use these books a inspired and therefore add and/or subtract from the very word of God; which He warned about. Don’t you believe that is worth thinking about?

Ezekiel 3:10 "Moreover, He said to me, "Son of man, take into your heart all My words which I will speak to you and listen closely.

This an example of the positive use and not the negative use; there are man more we could add to the positive side of staying the course on the use of God;s word. Hopefully you and others get the whole of the picture and the seriousness of the handling of His word.

Matthew 5:18 “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.”
Your Church was not started by Christ or Peter as you may claim; that is one thing that a Christian easily discerns, in my opinion and knowledge of both the Bible and religion.
**Again - you reject the Scriptures, the word of God. Jesus left his Church in charge and went so far as to tell the Apostles that the Holy Spirit would guide them to ALL truth and that he would take from what was Jesus’ and give it to them. The WHOLE truth (1 Tim. 3:15). **

NOBODY else has that authority but HIS Church - not you not Luther, not Calvin, not Charles Taze Russel, not Chuch Smith, not R.C. Sproul - not ANYBODY:

John 16:12-15

**"I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. **
**But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. ****He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. **
**Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. **

John 21:25
There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written. **

PS - the Bible has 73 Books. Rebellious, prideful Protestants chose to throw out 7 books that Jesus himself studied from. :rolleyes:
 
Ahhhh, NOW I know with whom I am dealing. Not just an anti-Catholic - but an extremely poorly educated one.

I visited your little anti-Catholic website that you copied and pasted from "alwaysbeready.com". The charge that the Catholic Church started in the 3rd, 4th or 5th centuriy has been debunked for 1500 years and is also heavily debunked by just about every major Protestant scholar from R.C. Sproul to Norman Geisler. Heck - secular history has a better record of the Church than you. I can’t believe there are still websites out there that make these ridiculous claims. :rolleyes:

Also - Irenaeus DOES include Peter in his list of Popes in his Against Heresies - CONTRARY to your plagiarized claim.

Look - if you hate God’s Church - so be it. BUT - don’t tell lies about her. You will be held accountable to God for this when you are judged.

Do your homework and don’t paste such sloppy garbage and try to pass it off as "fact".
INCREDIBLE! :rolleyes:
Hate to tell you but Geisler agrees with all that is written. if you don’t believe me check out his book on Catholics and Evangelicals. I am ready to be held accountable about God’s Word LOL. Don’t be a hater. God Bless Brother:thumbsup:
 
Freedomwriter:

I forgot one more thing: Which scholars? The reason I ask is that even secular encyclopedias disagree with your statement. It seems that only non-Catholic Christians, who have a very strong belief in their leaders (like you in Luther) believe this. History certainly does not support this claim so I’d like to find out which scholars reject this and what their background is making them an actual scholar.

Thanks in advance.
Check on Norman Geisler, Ralph Mackenzie and Charlie Campbell. Like your friend mention check out alwaysbeready.com
 
Ahhhh, NOW I know with whom I am dealing. Not just an anti-Catholic - but an extremely poorly educated one.

I visited your little anti-Catholic website that you copied and pasted from "alwaysbeready.com". The charge that the Catholic Church started in the 3rd, 4th or 5th centuriy has been debunked for 1500 years and is also heavily debunked by just about every major Protestant scholar from R.C. Sproul to Norman Geisler. Heck - secular history has a better record of the Church than you. I can’t believe there are still websites out there that make these ridiculous claims. :rolleyes:

Also - Irenaeus DOES include Peter in his list of Popes in his Against Heresies - CONTRARY to your plagiarized claim.

Look - if you hate God’s Church - so be it. BUT - don’t tell lies about her. You will be held accountable to God for this when you are judged.

Do your homework and don’t paste such sloppy garbage and try to pass it off as "fact".
INCREDIBLE! :rolleyes:
Come on Brother. You know you love the truth. The truth will set you free. I am ready to be held accountable for God’s Word. Jesus had brothers and sisters. Case Close. i do look forward to debating more of your replys. God Bless you my Brother.👍
 
Tanner:

I see you’ve been quite busy on this thread. I also see, however, that you suddenly left another thread when the questions seemed to get difficult. When you do your research and figure out who put the Bible together, how many Books were involved, and who really tried to take Books out (a topic you addressed in this thread) we’ll be waiting for you. Hate to see these questions go unanswered.
**I have three threads going, which was a mistake on my part; i apologize and I am “behind” and have limited time. So if I miss something, then just bring the question up again and i will do my best to get to them. As it is right now; i could spend the next 12 hours to catch up; so again; I do not have anything to dodge; I have the truth at my side or inside.

God bless and thanks for the patience.

Tanner

PS Happy 4th of July everyone!**
 
Ahhhh, NOW I know with whom I am dealing. Not just an anti-Catholic - but an extremely poorly educated one.

I visited your little anti-Catholic website that you copied and pasted from "alwaysbeready.com". The charge that the Catholic Church started in the 3rd, 4th or 5th centuriy has been debunked for 1500 years and is also heavily debunked by just about every major Protestant scholar from R.C. Sproul to Norman Geisler. Heck - secular history has a better record of the Church than you. I can’t believe there are still websites out there that make these ridiculous claims. :rolleyes:

Also - Irenaeus DOES include Peter in his list of Popes in his Against Heresies - CONTRARY to your plagiarized claim.

Look - if you hate God’s Church - so be it. BUT - don’t tell lies about her. You will be held accountable to God for this when you are judged.

Do your homework and don’t paste such sloppy garbage and try to pass it off as "fact".
INCREDIBLE! :rolleyes:
Let Elvis cast the first stone to someone who has not copied and pasted some material used to support their position.
 
Come on Brother. You know you love the truth. The truth will set you free. I am ready to be held accountable for God’s Word. Jesus had brothers and sisters. Case Close. i do look forward to debating more of your replys. God Bless you my Brother.👍
We can only take so much humor; I’m getting stomach cramps.
 
Tanner:

I see you’ve been quite busy on this thread. I also see, however, that you suddenly left another thread when the questions seemed to get difficult. When you do your research and figure out who put the Bible together, how many Books were involved, and who really tried to take Books out (a topic you addressed in this thread) we’ll be waiting for you. Hate to see these questions go unanswered.
I have answered part of the question posting about the adding and subtracting; maybe you need to go back and look. I do know the Apocrypha is not inspired by God as some claim and I know some are included in some religions and partially excluded in others; nevertheless, they should not be there in the first place.
 
I have answered part of the question posting about the adding and subtracting; maybe you need to go back and look. I do know the Apocrypha is not inspired by God as some claim and I know some are included in some religions and partially excluded in others; nevertheless, they should not be there in the first place.
Tanner, Do you notice how you are getting the same responses on every thread you are on? By different Catholics from different parts of the world. Why do you think that is?
I’ll give you the reason. Catholics worldwide have the same basis in faith . That is what you lack - the truth that comes from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

The Deutrerocanonical books are quoted dozens of times in the New Testament. scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html
And they were part of the original canon in 382AD. They were only removed by Protestants who didn’t like what they said in the 1500s.
 
Check on Norman Geisler, Ralph Mackenzie and Charlie Campbell. Like your friend mention check out alwaysbeready.com
Hi freedomwriter,

Since you and I are having a facual disagreement, I thought that I would bring in a third party source, of a neutral nature. The encyclopedia:

ROMAN CATHOLICISM. The largest of the Christian denominations is the Roman Catholic church. As an institution it has existed since the 1st century AD…The name of the church is derived from its base in Rome and from a Greek term meaning “universal.” The word Catholic refers to the wholeness of the church, and for many centuries the Roman church claimed to be the only true Christian denomination.(Compton’s Interactive Encyclopedia © 1996)

ROMAN CATHOLICISM: Christian church characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctoral and organizational structure that traces its history to the apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century C.E. (Marriam-Webster’s Encyclopedia of World Religions © 1999, page 938 )

The history of the Roman Church, therefore, in relation to the ancient oriental churches, is in fact, the history of this claim to supremacy. The claim of supremacy on the part of the bishop of Rome rests on the belief that Christ conferred on the apostle Peter a ‘primacy of jurisdiction;’ that Peter fixed his see and died at Rome and thus, that the bishops of Rome, as successors of the apostle Peter, have succeeded to his preorgatives of supremacy. In this light, historians read the facts of the early history of the church—and they trace to this acknoledgment of the superiority of that see, the numerous references to Rome on matters of doctrine or discipline; the appeals from other churhces, even those of Alexandria, Antioch, and Constantinople; the depositions or nominations of bishops, examination and condemnation of heresies—of which the first five centuries, especially the 4th and 5th, present examples. . . In all the controversies on the Incarnation—the Arian, the Nestorian, the Eutychian, the Monothelite—not only was the orthodoxy of Rome never impeached, but she even supplied at every crisis a rallying point for the orthodox of every church. ( Imperial Encyclopedia and Dictionary, Volume 32 © 1903)

The Church of Rome is the earliest of Christian organization; after three centuries of persecution, it was given freedom by the edict of Constantine and Licinius and acquired increased influence. Bishoprics were established in various parts of the empire, but the one at Rome remained supreme, and in time the title of Pope, or father originally borne by all the bishops indiscriminately, began to be restricted to the bishop of Rome.(The World Book Encyclopedia © 1940, Page 6166, Volume 14,)

The office of Pope was founded on the words of Christ: “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter [which means a rock], and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” ( Matthew xvi, 18). The attention of every historian has been attracted by the endurance of the Papacy through centuries that have seen the downfall of every other European institution that existed when the Papacy arose, and of a number of others that have originated and fallen, while it continued t flourish. The Roman Catholic offers these facts as evidence that the Church is not merely a human institution, but that it is built “upon a rock,” (The World Book Encyclopedia © 1940, Page 5730 Volume13)

Historical Notes. The Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church recognizes the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, as the Vicar of Christ on this earth, and as the Head of the Church. It traces its origin from the naming of the Apostles Peter by Jesus as the chief of the Apostles . The authority of Peter as head of the Church is exercised by his successors as the Bishops of Rome. The doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church come from the faith given by Christ to his Apostles.( World Religions, By Benson Y. Landis, © 1957 Page 110)

At first the Christians were terribly persecuted, but gradually they spread the Christ’s radian spirit and teachings until they united many races, classes, and religious beliefs into a brotherhood which extended from Persia to the Atlantic Ocean. Later, this brotherhood spread to American, and Christianity became the prevailing religion of the Western Hemisphere. It has now ben taught in all countries.For nearly a thousand years the Christians remained practically one great community. Then the Greek Catholics broke away from the Roman Catholics. "The World Book Encyclopedia ©1940, Page 1413 Volume 3)

I could go on and on but I think you get the picture.
 
I have answered part of the question posting about the adding and subtracting; maybe you need to go back and look. I do know the Apocrypha is not inspired by God as some claim and I know some are included in some religions and partially excluded in others; nevertheless, they should not be there in the first place.
Tanner:

I believe all you said is that some of the Books don’t belong there but you would not specify which and why. Still a lot of unanswered questions.
 
Hate to tell you but Geisler agrees with all that is written. if you don’t believe me check out his book on Catholics and Evangelicals. I am ready to be held accountable about God’s Word LOL. Don’t be a hater. God Bless Brother:thumbsup:
**That’s NOT what Geisler said on the Bible Answerman Show with Hank Hanefraff. **
Hmmmm . . . if he changes his mind on this topic - what else has he changed his mind on. That’s the Protestant way - change change change. :rolleyes:

Now - since you claim that the Catholic church was started in the 5th Century - prove it with history.
In essence - put your “facts” where your mouth is. :rolleyes:

PS - I’m no hater. I have 13 siblings and 2/3s of them have left the fullness of truth for Protestant denominations and I love each an every one of them. I pray for them and you that the scales will fall from your eyes and God reveals himself to all of you. 👍
 
Let Elvis cast the first stone to someone who has not copied and pasted some material used to support their position.
And when I do - I tell you where it came from. 👍
Besides, I only paste truth - not unsubstantiated lies about the historicity of the Church.

If you believe that freedomwriter pasted - PROVE it. :rolleyes:
 
Come on Brother. You know you love the truth. The truth will set you free. I am ready to be held accountable for God’s Word. Jesus had brothers and sisters. Case Close. i do look forward to debating more of your replys. God Bless you my Brother.👍
Like I said before - I LOVE truth - but that’s not what you’re peddling.

PROVE the Catholic Church began in the 5th century and I’ll become a Protestant today.
You can’t because it’s a lie.👍
 
**
Okay; let’s look at all the warnings about adding or subtracting and it is quite fitting that the very last words of the last scroll of the NT would have such a warning and I believe it can be reasonably shown that it applies to all of Scripture. If for no other reason; the Bible is the very words of God and adding or subtracting from God’s word would not please Him; probably anger Him. Why? Who would want to add or subtract but someone with an evil agenda; The devil was the first starting in the Garden of Eden. Some or many believe verse 18 is John speaking, but verse 20 says He who testifies, which is the Lord Jesus; therefore it is probable that verse 18 is the Lord speaking and not John. (just a side note w/o much significance as far as I understand)

Deuteronomy 4:2 “You shall not add to the word** which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.”

Did the Jews do that? Yes What was the consequences? Do you think it makes sense that it would apply to all God has revealed?

Deuteronomy 12:32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.” Do you think it is mere coincidence that this warning was put at the end of the Pentateuch? I don’t think so.

Proverbs 30:5-6 "Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

Does this just apply to Proverbs or this verse or all?

Jeremiah 26:2 "Thus says the LORD, 'Stand in the court of the LORD’S house, and speak to all the cities of Judah who have come to worship {in} the LORD’S house all the words that I have commanded you to speak to them. Do not omit a word!

Do you believe he warnings forbids any alteration of this book, the Bible, and any alteration of anything that God has ever written, which goes for all sixty-six books.
I say 66 because the Apocrypha; which have been added to various religions, against all the warnings, have geographical and historical errors and the writer of Maccabees states directly that it is not inspired (If I recall 2 Maccabees). The early Christian teachers used the Apocrypha as an enhancement tool to teach spiritual truths already used in the Bible , but did not consider it inspired. Why? Because it isn’t; but some religions use these books a inspired and therefore add and/or subtract from the very word of God; which He warned about. Don’t you believe that is worth thinking about?

Ezekiel 3:10 "Moreover, He said to me, "Son of man, take into your heart all My words which I will speak to you and listen closely.

This an example of the positive use and not the negative use; there are man more we could add to the positive side of staying the course on the use of God;s word. Hopefully you and others get the whole of the picture and the seriousness of the handling of His word.

Matthew 5:18 “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.”
Your Church was not started by Christ or Peter as you may claim; that is one thing that a Christian easily discerns, in my opinion and knowledge of both the Bible and religion.
This is so wrong and C athloic and non-cathloics d o not believe this Rev 22:18-19 is talking only about the book od REV ONLY, NOT THE BIBLE and DEU is out of context read the book and get it right,Any milkmaind that can read has to get it right. May God help all non-cathhloics who believe as you…Sorry but this is so wrong
 
Hi freedomwriter,

Since you and I are having a facual disagreement, I thought that I would bring in a third party source, of a neutral nature. The encyclopedia:

ROMAN CATHOLICISM. The largest of the Christian denominations is the Roman Catholic church. As an institution it has existed since the 1st century AD…The name of the church is derived from its base in Rome and from a Greek term meaning “universal.” The word Catholic refers to the wholeness of the church, and for many centuries the Roman church claimed to be the only true Christian denomination.(Compton’s Interactive Encyclopedia © 1996)

ROMAN CATHOLICISM: Christian church characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctoral and organizational structure that traces its history to the apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century C.E. (Marriam-Webster’s Encyclopedia of World Religions © 1999, page 938 )

The history of the Roman Church, therefore, in relation to the ancient oriental churches, is in fact, the history of this claim to supremacy. The claim of supremacy on the part of the bishop of Rome rests on the belief that Christ conferred on the apostle Peter a ‘primacy of jurisdiction;’ that Peter fixed his see and died at Rome and thus, that the bishops of Rome, as successors of the apostle Peter, have succeeded to his preorgatives of supremacy. In this light, historians read the facts of the early history of the church—and they trace to this acknoledgment of the superiority of that see, the numerous references to Rome on matters of doctrine or discipline; the appeals from other churhces, even those of Alexandria, Antioch, and Constantinople; the depositions or nominations of bishops, examination and condemnation of heresies—of which the first five centuries, especially the 4th and 5th, present examples. . . In all the controversies on the Incarnation—the Arian, the Nestorian, the Eutychian, the Monothelite—not only was the orthodoxy of Rome never impeached, but she even supplied at every crisis a rallying point for the orthodox of every church. ( Imperial Encyclopedia and Dictionary, Volume 32 © 1903)

The Church of Rome is the earliest of Christian organization; after three centuries of persecution, it was given freedom by the edict of Constantine and Licinius and acquired increased influence. Bishoprics were established in various parts of the empire, but the one at Rome remained supreme, and in time the title of Pope, or father originally borne by all the bishops indiscriminately, began to be restricted to the bishop of Rome.(The World Book Encyclopedia © 1940, Page 6166, Volume 14,)

The office of Pope was founded on the words of Christ: “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter [which means a rock], and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” ( Matthew xvi, 18). The attention of every historian has been attracted by the endurance of the Papacy through centuries that have seen the downfall of every other European institution that existed when the Papacy arose, and of a number of others that have originated and fallen, while it continued t flourish. The Roman Catholic offers these facts as evidence that the Church is not merely a human institution, but that it is built “upon a rock,” (The World Book Encyclopedia © 1940, Page 5730 Volume13)

Historical Notes. The Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church recognizes the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, as the Vicar of Christ on this earth, and as the Head of the Church. It traces its origin from the naming of the Apostles Peter by Jesus as the chief of the Apostles . The authority of Peter as head of the Church is exercised by his successors as the Bishops of Rome. The doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church come from the faith given by Christ to his Apostles.( World Religions, By Benson Y. Landis, © 1957 Page 110)

At first the Christians were terribly persecuted, but gradually they spread the Christ’s radian spirit and teachings until they united many races, classes, and religious beliefs into a brotherhood which extended from Persia to the Atlantic Ocean. Later, this brotherhood spread to American, and Christianity became the prevailing religion of the Western Hemisphere. It has now ben taught in all countries.For nearly a thousand years the Christians remained practically one great community. Then the Greek Catholics broke away from the Roman Catholics. "The World Book Encyclopedia ©1940, Page 1413 Volume 3)

I could go on and on but I think you get the picture.
Very nicely put i must say but you do not provide any scripture to address what you have written. Thanks anyway
 
Very nicely put i must say but you do not provide any scripture to address what you have written. Thanks anyway
Is this not from Scripture:
The office of Pope was founded on the words of Christ: “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter [which means a rock], and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” ( Matthew xvi, 18).

I copied and pasted that from erikd’s post. 🙂
 
How do you know that?
**They have historical, cultural and geographical errors and the writer of 2 Maccabees states it is not inspired. The early Christian Jews used the books as resources to enhance spiritual truths already in the Bible. In a similar way; we all have or favorite writers and authors that put our faith in a light different but consistent with our faith. Commentaries would be a good example or the NewAdvent website would be another example. However; since God does not contradict Himself or make errors; we therefore know they are not of God.

One example would be praying to or through the earthly dead; you won’t find that in the 66 books of the Bible without twisting a verse. Hope that helps your understanding.**
 
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