James, Brother of Jesus?

[Bill_Pick]

JL: Thanks Paul, good post. I just wanted to add a verse or two that came to mind while reading the post. 1Pt4:8 Above all, love each other deeply, because LOVE COVERS over A MULTITUDE OF SINS. Also Mt5:38 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

I’m not positive but Tanner has the style of one trained in a Calvery Chapel group. They target Catholics. They are anti-Catholic in my view because they are taught Loraine Boetner’s type of distorted history and believe it. I think that’s why they post from those anti-Catholic sites. I don’t understand why sincere people will not go to a library and check with other sources.

Paul You may have hit it on the head about Tanner,He is the one that is confused with Rev22:18-19 saying it is talking about all the Bible.

 

[imjustme]

The view that Mary was ever virgin was not defined by councils but has been a constant tradition for 2000 years. Why do you think the Catholic Church would teach that Mary was ever-virgin if it wasn’t true? You don’t believe that Mary having children was any impediment to Christology so why would anyone else? What would be the church’s motivation to just make it up?

On the other hand, what is your motivation to saying the Church’s traditions are wrong. You have no proof at all to make these claims. Even if you believe that the bible means Jesus has literal brothers (and you know that this is dubious), that criteria could be met by sons of Joseph from a previous marriage.

I do not claim to know for sure why they would teach this dogma if it was untrue, but my guess is that it helped them convert certain people who had religious beliefs and practices based on a Godess figure (i.e. the Pagans).

I understand that Mary’s virginity has been a tradition for certain religions for many years, however I do not believe it to be biblical and Jesus tells us to follow the Word of God over tradition.

Mark 7:5-13 (NIV)
So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with ‘unclean’ hands?”

He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

“‘These people honor me with their lips,

but their hearts are far from me.

They worship me in vain;

their teachings are but rules taught by men.’

You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”

And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

 

[erikd]

I understand that Mary’s virginity has been a tradition for certain religions for many years, however I do not believe it to be biblical and Jesus tells us to follow the Word of God over tradition. ”

How much of this doctrine have you studied? The reason I ask is that there is a lot of information available through this website regarding this very issue. One is the faith tract called “Mary Ever-Virgin” accessible through the following site:
catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp
There is also more information available regarding this issue as well as the issue that started this particular thread in a faith tract called “Brethren of the Lord” which can be accessible through the following site:
catholic.com/library/Brethren_of_the_Lord.asp
I invite you to read these two faith tracts, as they are intimately connected together, and let me know whether you still feel the same way.

“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.’
You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”

Once again the question begs, how much of this doctrine have you studied? If you have not studied the “Ever-Virginity” of our Blessed Mother, or the idea of the “Brethren of the Lord” perhaps you should. The verses you quoted above are extremely damaging and therefore should not be used in vain, lest one be guilty of breaking the 8th Commandment. That in itself would be extremely damaging.

 

[imjustme]

How much of this doctrine have you studied? The reason I ask is that there is a lot of information available through this website regarding this very issue. One is the faith tract called “Mary Ever-Virgin” accessible through the following site:
catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp
There is also more information available regarding this issue as well as the issue that started this particular thread in a faith tract called “Brethren of the Lord” which can be accessible through the following site:
catholic.com/library/Brethren_of_the_Lord.asp
I invite you to read these two faith tracts, as they are intimately connected together, and let me know whether you still feel the same way.

Once again the question begs, how much of this doctrine have you studied? If you have not studied the “Ever-Virginity” of our Blessed Mother, or the idea of the “Brethren of the Lord” perhaps you should. The verses you quoted above are extremely damaging and therefore should not be used in vain, lest one be guilty of breaking the 8th Commandment. That in itself would be extremely damaging.

hi ericd - Thank you for your suggestions. I did read many of the tracts you suggested in a previous post and forgot to let you know that your request had not been ignored.

Since you asked and you seem to be honest in your dialogue with me, I’ll tell you some of my background. I was born and raised Roman Catholic. I had infant baptism, first holy communion, confirmation and marriage in a Roman Catholic Church. I also was in Catholic boarding school in Italy for 6 years and have several priests, a bishop, and a Catholic missionary in my family. I have been heavily indoctrinated in Roman Catholic teachings. Not until my mid 40s did I change my beliefs and only after a lot of research, soul searching and above all, prayer. It was not an easy transition (because of my loyalty to the Catholic church) but I felt I had to follow where God, through the Holy Spirit was bringing me.

I hope this give you a better understanding of where I come from and that my beliefs are not taken lightly. God Bless You!

 

[PRmerger]

hi ericd - Thank you for your suggestions. I did read many of the tracts you suggested in a previous post and forgot to let you know that your request had not been ignored!

I commend you, imjustme, for taking the time to read those tracts. Could you tell us what tract, and what your response to reading it was? Specifically, what convinced you that this particular Catholic teaching was not correct?

Thanks!

 

[ppasa316]

I beg to differ. You do target a specific group or denomination. You target Catholic as shown in every post in this forum. You say you study the Bible book by book. Does that include the 7 deutrocanonical books of Wisdom, Baruch, Ecclesiasticus, Tobit, Judith, 1Machabees and 2 Machabees?? If not you are misrepresenting yourself stating that you study every book. Chapter by Chapter and verse by verse. Does that include all 100 verses of the 3rd chapter of Daniel?? Again if you aren’t you are misrepresenting yourself and you are totally lying through your teeth. Misrepresentations of specific denominations. Give examples.How do you know your Bible 100% accurate as opposed to the Latin Vulgate or even the original manuscripts???

Can you prove that the church i attend bashes catholics. I got on this site because of the misinterpretations of the catholic church. I was a catholic so I know both sides. I do study the bible but not the apocrypha because it is not a part of the canon of scriptues that the Jewish community accepted. I am sure that the bible i read is 100% accurate. If i didn’t then why read it. I have already proven that the canon of scripture was done by propheticity. Read my other posts.

 

[ppasa316]

I’ll second that. I also attend Calvary Chapel (at two different locations) and have never heard any Catholic bashing. I was previously Roman Catholic and would have definately noticed it if it was there.

Thank You

 

[tobinatorstark]

Can you prove that the church i attend bashes catholics. I got on this site because of the misinterpretations of the catholic church. I was a catholic so I know both sides. I do study the bible but not the apocrypha because it is not a part of the canon of scriptues that the Jewish community accepted. I am sure that the bible i read is 100% accurate. If i didn’t then why read it. I have already proven that the canon of scripture was done by propheticity. Read my other posts.

You have proved nothing. You have yet to state one misrepresentation of the Catholic Church. I have read all your other post and they produce heresy. No I cannot prove that your ecclesial community bashes the church. Anything outside Catholic and Orthodox are considered ecclesial comunities. Proof. EWTN

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/cdfaspevang.HTM

As for you on this forum, you do bash Catholics. You know nothing about the Christian canon at all nor do you know anything about the man made doctrines and who founded your ecclesial community.

 

[imjustme]

I commend you, imjustme, for taking the time to read those tracts. Could you tell us what tract, and what your response to reading it was? Specifically, what convinced you that this particular Catholic teaching was not correct?

Thanks!

I have been reading material on this site until 3 AM the last two nights (or mornings, I guess) so I can’t tell you all of the tracts and my thoughts on them individually.

I wasn’t reading and taking notes of my thoughts on each tract, thinking there would be a test the next day.

I can tell you that they left me with two overall impressions:

1. Ah…more of what I already was taught as a Roman Catholic and
2. Ah…how can they believe some of this stuff after reading the Bible?

I don’t claim to be a highly knowledgeable Bible scholar. I was never taught to read the Bible for myself in over 40 years of Roman Catholic indoctrination and have only recently begun to read and study The Word of God in these last 4-5 years since joining Calvary Chapel…however if you sincerely want my thoughts on any specific tract or Catholic doctrine, I’d be glad to respond…maybe in another thread so as not to derail this one any further.

 

[Bill_Pick]

For those who believe that Jesus Christ had “brothers and sisters”, I encourage you to answer the following questions…

1. This would be a monumental revelation for the creator of the universe to have siblings. Just think if YOU were a brother or sister of Jesus Christ. Wouldn’t you feel slighted if you were not mentioned in Holy Scripture?
2. What are their names? Why are they not more prominent in Scripture?
3. When were they born? Where were they born? When did they die? If they are divine, could they even die?
4. Why did Jesus Christ give His mother to Saint John in John 19:27?
5. Why did He not give her to one of His “siblings”? As I explained in the “Genealogy of the Brethren”, Jewish law would have demanded it.
6. How can GOD have siblings?
7. Why are not the “siblings” of Jesus Christ mentioned in the writings of the Church Fathers?
8. The question of the “brothers and sisters” of Jesus Christ did not rise to prominence until Protestantism began in the 16th century. How do you explain this fact?
9. Why do you interpret the meaning of the word “brethren” as you do, in today’s English, instead of determining the meaning of it in the language of the time of writing? After all, that is one of the basic rules of Bible interpretation, is it not? Also, since you insist on using the definition of brothers and sisters in today’s English, why do you not use the correct terminology of “half brothers and half sisters” when you make your false charges?
10. Based on such flimsy evidence as you have, what is your real reason for slighting the Mother of GOD? Aren’t you judging her? Aren’t you calumnizing her?
11. Don’t you realize that by making the false accusation that the Mother of GOD had other children that you are insulting the Holy Family as well as the Holy Trinity?
12. If someone deliberately spread gossip about your very own mother that simply was not true, how would you feel? What would you do? How would Jesus Christ feel? What will He do?
    Cathloic answers

 

[paul_c]

I have been reading material on this site until 3 AM the last two nights (or mornings, I guess) so I can’t tell you all of the tracts and my thoughts on them individually.

I wasn’t reading and taking notes of my thoughts on each tract, thinking there would be a test the next day.

I can tell you that they left me with two overall impressions:

1. Ah…more of what I already was taught as a Roman Catholic and
2. Ah…how can they believe some of this stuff after reading the Bible?

I don’t claim to be a highly knowledgeable Bible scholar. I was never taught to read the Bible for myself in over 40 years of Roman Catholic indoctrination and have only recently begun to read and study The Word of God in these last 4-5 years since joining Calvary Chapel…however if you sincerely want my thoughts on any specific tract or Catholic doctrine, I’d be glad to respond…maybe in another thread so as not to derail this one any further.

Lets focus on this one - the concept of the ever-Virgin Mary, since it is the topic of this thread. What in the bible convinced you that the Catholic church was wrong in this matter? Was it simply the statement that there are 4 men who are identified as the Brother of the Lord? But that doesn’t mean that Mary wasn’t ever virgin. First of all, we know that the greek term for brother also can mean those in his clan. Second of all, even if it is taken as literally brothers, it could mean the child of Joseph and not Mary. What made you ignore these explanations and decide the Catholic church was wrong?

 

[tobinatorstark]

For those who believe that Jesus Christ had “brothers and sisters”, I encourage you to answer the following questions…

1. This would be a monumental revelation for the creator of the universe to have siblings. Just think if YOU were a brother or sister of Jesus Christ. Wouldn’t you feel slighted if you were not mentioned in Holy Scripture?
2. What are their names? Why are they not more prominent in Scripture?
3. When were they born? Where were they born? When did they die? If they are divine, could they even die?
4. Why did Jesus Christ give His mother to Saint John in John 19:27?
5. Why did He not give her to one of His “siblings”? As I explained in the “Genealogy of the Brethren”, Jewish law would have demanded it.
6. How can GOD have siblings?
7. Why are not the “siblings” of Jesus Christ mentioned in the writings of the Church Fathers?
8. The question of the “brothers and sisters” of Jesus Christ did not rise to prominence until Protestantism began in the 16th century. How do you explain this fact?
9. Why do you interpret the meaning of the word “brethren” as you do, in today’s English, instead of determining the meaning of it in the language of the time of writing? After all, that is one of the basic rules of Bible interpretation, is it not? Also, since you insist on using the definition of brothers and sisters in today’s English, why do you not use the correct terminology of “half brothers and half sisters” when you make your false charges?
10. Based on such flimsy evidence as you have, what is your real reason for slighting the Mother of GOD? Aren’t you judging her? Aren’t you calumnizing her?
11. Don’t you realize that by making the false accusation that the Mother of GOD had other children that you are insulting the Holy Family as well as the Holy Trinity?
12. If someone deliberately spread gossip about your very own mother that simply was not true, how would you feel? What would you do? How would Jesus Christ feel? What will He do?
    Cathloic answers

excellent questions proposed

 

[paul_c]

I do not claim to know for sure why they would teach this dogma if it was untrue, but my guess is that it helped them convert certain people who had religious beliefs and practices based on a Godess figure (i.e. the Pagans).

I understand that Mary’s virginity has been a tradition for certain religions for many years, however I do not believe it to be biblical and Jesus tells us to follow the Word of God over tradition.

Mark 7:5-13 (NIV)
So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with ‘unclean’ hands?”

He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

“‘These people honor me with their lips,

but their hearts are far from me.

They worship me in vain;

their teachings are but rules taught by men.’

You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”

And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

So you are charging Catholics with following Man-made traditions rather than God’s will?
How do you come to that conclusion. How do you know God’s will? Because the Calvary Chapel told you so? What are their credentials for you to trust your soul to them? Do you think they have some better way to read the Bible than the Catholics, who actually wrote and compiled it? What convinced you?

 

[imjustme]

For those who believe that Jesus Christ had “brothers and sisters”, I encourage you to answer the following questions…

1. This would be a monumental revelation for the creator of the universe to have siblings. Just think if YOU were a brother or sister of Jesus Christ. Wouldn’t you feel slighted if you were not mentioned in Holy Scripture?
2. What are their names? Why are they not more prominent in Scripture?
3. When were they born? Where were they born? When did they die? If they are divine, could they even die?
4. Why did Jesus Christ give His mother to Saint John in John 19:27?
5. Why did He not give her to one of His “siblings”? As I explained in the “Genealogy of the Brethren”, Jewish law would have demanded it.
6. How can GOD have siblings?
7. Why are not the “siblings” of Jesus Christ mentioned in the writings of the Church Fathers?
8. The question of the “brothers and sisters” of Jesus Christ did not rise to prominence until Protestantism began in the 16th century. How do you explain this fact?
9. Why do you interpret the meaning of the word “brethren” as you do, in today’s English, instead of determining the meaning of it in the language of the time of writing? After all, that is one of the basic rules of Bible interpretation, is it not? Also, since you insist on using the definition of brothers and sisters in today’s English, why do you not use the correct terminology of “half brothers and half sisters” when you make your false charges?
10. Based on such flimsy evidence as you have, what is your real reason for slighting the Mother of GOD? Aren’t you judging her? Aren’t you calumnizing her?
11. Don’t you realize that by making the false accusation that the Mother of GOD had other children that you are insulting the Holy Family as well as the Holy Trinity?
12. If someone deliberately spread gossip about your very own mother that simply was not true, how would you feel? What would you do? How would Jesus Christ feel? What will He do?
    Cathloic answers

Nice list, but may I suggest that you at least give credit to the author, Bob Stanley.

geocities.com/athens/forum/3975/brothers.htm

 

[paul_c]

Nice list, but may I suggest that you at least give credit to the author, Bob Stanley.

geocities.com/athens/forum/3975/brothers.htm

You are right, he should have given credit, but regardless, it is interestng that you would be so aware of this website and yet you still insist that Mary had children.

Can you explain why you believe the Calvary Chapel on this, and not the Catholics, who clearly have more data than a simple understanding of scripture?

 

[imjustme]

Lets focus on this one - the concept of the ever-Virgin Mary, since it is the topic of this thread. What in the bible convinced you that the Catholic church was wrong in this matter? Was it simply the statement that there are 4 men who are identified as the Brother of the Lord? But that doesn’t mean that Mary wasn’t ever virgin. First of all, we know that the greek term for brother also can mean those in his clan. Second of all, even if it is taken as literally brothers, it could mean the child of Joseph and not Mary. What made you ignore these explanations and decide the Catholic church was wrong?

I believe in trusting the Bible as the inspired Word of God and therefore I have no reason not to believe that the word “brother” means “brother” (especially since the word “cousin” is used by the same author at another time, obviously showing that he knew the difference).

God sent Jesus on earth in the body of a human through a human mother…why couldn’t He have human brothers too? Why is this such an obstacle for Catholics? You keep saying it could mean this and it could mean that…yeah…it could…But why can’t you trust the inspired Word of God at face value? Why second guess what is clearly there to fit what “it could mean”?

Anyway, here are a few other points that come to mind:

“And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took her as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus” (Matthew 1:24-25)

The word “until” means that Mary was a virgin up to when Jesus was born, but they engaged in a normal marital sexual relationship afterwards. To do anything else would violate the nature of marriage in regard to God’s instructions that husband and wife are to meet eachother’s sexual needs. (1 Corinthians 7:3)

They were engaged to be marry, so why wouldn’t they be expecting to have sex after marriage? Do you have any biblical evidence/reason?

“Is not this the Carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us?” (Matthew 13:55-56)

Jesus having siblings is mentioned throughout the NT, but this is one place where divine inspiration is letting us clearly know his family status.

Some people may say that Jesus entrusted the care of his mother to the apostle John at the cross, which proves that he did not have brothers.

I believe the reason Jesus entrusted His mother to John instead of His brothers is because at the time of His death, His brothers were unbelievers (John 7:5). John is apparently the only one of the disciples with courage enough to take his stand with Mary at the cross. It is understandable that Jesus would want His mother in the care of a strong and committed believer. Also, John may have been Jesus’ cousin (Salome’s son), so aside from being a dear friend and disciple, he was a relative.

 

[imjustme]

You are right, he should have given credit, but regardless, it is interestng that you would be so aware of this website and yet you still insist that Mary had children.

Can you explain why you believe the Calvary Chapel on this, and not the Catholics, who clearly have more data than a simple understanding of scripture?

I never said that I believe Calvary Chapel over the Catholics. Please don’t misquote me or tell me what I believe. Thanks

The Roman Catholic Church has done many good things for Christianity, however I do believe the Bible over any Catholic doctrine that is not in line with biblical scripture. Basically, the Bible is the inspired Word of God and I believe God to be truthful and without error. On the other hand, ANY church (Catholic, Calvary Chapel, or other) is a group of men and God is clear that no man is perfect.

And…I don’t want to get into a long heated debate over why my Bible doesn’t have the Apocrypha except to say that it does not meet the tests of canonicity used by the early church fathers:

1. Was the book written or backed by a prophet or apostle of God?
2. Is the book authoritative?
3. Does the book tell the truth about God and doctrine as it is already known by previous revelation?
4. Does the book give evidence of having the power of God?
5. Was the book accepted by the people of God (the Jews)?

 

[imjustme]

While I have no idea what a Calvary Chapel does and doesn’t teach…

.

Just for your information…Calvary Chapel is a non-denominational Christian group of churches where members are encouraged to read the bible, pray, worship God and fellowship. Something that may be unique to them (but I’m not sure) is their method of reading (and studying) the books of the Bible from start to finish.

If you are interested, here are a few links to Calvary Chapel info.

WHAT WE BELIEVE (statement of faith):

calvarychapel.com/what_we_believe.cfm

OUR TEACHINGS (mp3 downloads by the lead pastor, Chuck Smith). I listen to these all the time and I love his teachings but I’ll admit he gets long winded sometimes

calvarychapel.com/our_teachings.cfm

 

[erikd]

I hope this give you a better understanding of where I come from and that my beliefs are not taken lightly. God Bless You!

Hi, Imjustme,

Thank you for your response to my question. I know, by your posts, that your beliefs are not taken lightly. In my opinion, anyone who goes to a Catholic forum site, especially when initially not agreeing with the Catholic view, is someone who at the very least wants to learn more about the topics being discussed. I commend you for having an open mind and a charitable attitude.

As far as the topic being discussed, since you did join the forum, let’s discuss it. There have been some good questions posed so far by PRMerger (post 599), Bill Pick (post 604), and Paul C (post 605). Since those questions are the start of a healthy discussion, I will refrain from asking my own until some of these have been covered. If you’d like, you can ask your own question, or voice your own objection. The only thing I would ask, in order for me to participate in this discussion, is specificity. General ideas and thought are always based on something more specific. If, for instance, you don’t believe that the Ever-Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary is Biblical, let me know what in the Bible contradicts it. If you don’t believe that Jesus had no blood brothers, let me know where the Bible says He did. This thread can progress a number of different ways, and you’re holding the cards. I look forward to a meaningful discussion which will enrich the both of us as well as hopefully all else on this thread.

 

[jlhargus]

I do not claim to know for sure why they would teach this dogma if it was untrue, but my guess is that it helped them convert certain people who had religious beliefs and practices based on a Godess figure (i.e. the Pagans).

JL: Have you got a source other than the ones atheist use to disprove Christianity? You know, the pagan religions atheist claim shows Christ was not the only God to resurrect after three days and not the only one born of a virgin, etc. etc…

If it were taught by the Church to convert pagans then their should be evidence in the Church Fathers.

I understand that Mary’s virginity has been a tradition for certain religions for many years, however I do not believe it to be biblical and Jesus tells us to follow the Word of God over tradition.

JL: Yes for 2000 thousand years as a matter of fact. Yes we are to follow the word of God whether by word OR epistle over a tradition of men.