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erikd
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I will answer your post sometime tonight. I don’t want to hasten my answer as I want it to be exact, accurate, and based on Scripture.
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jlhargus
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JL: In Psalm69:8 Christ has become an alien to his mother’s=Israel’s sons who are the brothers from whom he is estranged as they rejected him making him an alien. Ps69:8 is a messianic prophecy that Israel will reject Christ. I have only looked at Jn7:3-5 these are still Christ’s Jewish brethren. As for the rest, it’s like making a statement then sending another off to do your job.
Mary had no other natural children as this prophecy tells us. Ezek 44:1 Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. 2 **The LORD said **to me, This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it. [The Lord God has entered through Mary the gate of heaven and no one else is to enter thru that gate.]
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paul_c
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Well, you have induced me to do so bible based research on my own.
Here’s what I found. there are two, and potentially three James in the New Testament.
Matt 15: 40:There were also women looking on from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of the younger James and of Joses, and Salome.
Matt 27:56: Among them were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.
John 19: 25: Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala
Luke does not list the women by name so if they are all listing the same three women, we know that Salome was the wife of Zebedee and mother of James and John, and sister of Mary. We also know that Mary, the mother of James and Joseph, was the wife of Clopas. Tradition says that Clopas was the brother of St. Joseph but this is not in scripture so it can’t be assured with your groundrules. What can be sure, is that Mary, the mother of the Lord was not the mother of either of these James. And this James, brother of Joseph would seem to be the one listed as the brother of the Lord in
Matt 13:55 Is he not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother named Mary and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas
and in
Mark 6:3: Is he not the carpenter, 3 the son of Mary, and the brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
Now granted, you could argue that each of the three acounts name a different group of three women. While this is possible, it doesn’t seem that likely. Either way, this would not change the fact that Mary, the mother of James and Joseph, is not Mary the mother of the Lord. Further, you could also argue, that in John, the sister of Mary is Mary the wife of Clopas. this seems foolish in the literal sense since what parent would name two daughters Mary? It could mean, however that it was Mary’s sister in law, which would make sense if Clopas was St. Joseph’s brother. In this case, there were only two women with Mary in St. John’s account and we would lose the linkage of Salome as a sister of Mary. Again, this is not a problem for Mary’s perpetual virginity, it just means that th sons of Zebedee were not necessarily related to the Holy Family.
Finally, there is potentially one more James mentioned in the new testament, James the son of Alpheus, listed in the list of Apostles in Luke 6;15, Matt10: 3, and Mark 3:18. Now as it turns out Alpheus is the Greek version of Clopas (which is Hebrew). So it is possible and probably likely that there are only two James, one the brother of the lord , son of Clophas/Alpheus and Mary, and the other the son of Zebedee and Salome and brother of John the apostle.
So, while nothing is beyond dispute for those that see fit to argue, it would seem there is ample biblical evidence to support what has been Catholic Tradition for 2000 years
A) Mary was ever-virgin
B) that James , Joseph, Simon and Jude were actually the children of another Mary and Clopas (who was also named Alpheus) and that there relationship to Jesus were as cousins (if you believe St. Joseph and Clopas were brothers) or as other kin.
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erikd
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Thank you, Paul C
that’s some great research, none of which is contradictory to my research in post 623. It just goes to show that when thinking about this in a clear headed way, no contradictions can be found no matter how you approach the subject. That is precisely how the Church has developed Her doctrines for the past 2000 years, without contradictions or errors.
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paul_c
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Bill_Pick
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Please beat me I make a error I put Cathloic answer.Do you think You can live with it. Have a great day,thats the first error in 50 years,for give me
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jlhargus
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JL: I can vouch for you Bill, as I have never seen you make a mistake in all your 50 years.
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adrift
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Not necessarily. You may think you know but so far you are proving otherwise
Why on earth would you accept what the Jewish community accepted when they didn’t accept Jesus and their canon was in response to undermine the Christians?
I will have to take a look. Is propheticity a made up word? I couldn’t find it in the dictionary.I am sure that the bible i read is 100% accurate. If i didn’t then why read it. I have already proven that the canon of scripture was done by propheticity. Read my other posts.
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adrift
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It is not as clear as you want it to be. You read through 21 century minds.
No where does it say that they had relations after. The best you can do here is say that it is neutral. Reading it without preconceived ideas until only means up to a certain point. It does not imply anything after. To say it does is reading more into the text than is there. There are many examples of this in scripture. Some have been given, they have been ignored.
Engagement was not the same as today. They were MARRIED but in that part of the marriage (engagement) that the woman remained in her home preparing to take care of a household on her own before the second part of marriage where she began living with the man. Her question makes no sense if she was going to have normal relationship with her husband. When it speaks of taking her as his wife a better translation is that he took his wife meaning that he continued with the second part of the marriage which was having the woman living with the husband.
Note that no other person is EVER referred to as Mary’s son.
Sorry it is only clear to those who want it to be.
Jesus would not have done so if there had been someone to take care of her. Your reasoning is weak and is based on modern thinking not what the Jews of the time would have thought.
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This is pure speculation in order to make a weak explanation stronger but it doesn’t work.
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erikd
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Hi, PPSA:I do study the bible but not the apocrypha because it is not a part of the canon of scriptues that the Jewish community accepted.
By “apocrypha” what exactly do you mean? Because I assume you mean the protestant version of apocrypha, which is normally called the Deuterocanon. I won’t go into how many Books of the Bible were in the Canon as of 382 AD, or whether the “apocrypha” was included, because history tells us that it was, and a dispute of this is as worthy of a debate as whether or not the Holocaust really happened. However, I wanted to point your attention to a recent news event, that may shed even more credence to the Catholic stand, (a historically accurate stand) on the Deuterocanonical Books. Researchers just finished digitizing the oldest Biblical manuscript available to us. The “Codex Sinaiticus” is available for viewing at the following site:
codexsinaiticus.org/en/
The reason I bring this up is because the list of Books included in this 4th century manuscript includes Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, Sirach, and Wisdom. The manuscript does have missing pieces but all that exists of it is on the above mentioned site. Just wanted to bring to your attention, that the Deuterocanonical Books were certainly being read as early at the middle of the fourth century, before the Council of Rome determined the official Canon for all Christians throughout the world.
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PRmerger
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Here’s a great example of biblical evidence: see Luke 1:34.
The archangel Gabriel tells Mary that she’s going to conceive and bear a child.
Now, remember, she’s bethrothed to a man. What the angel Gabriel is telling her, under “normal” circumstances would be met with, “Of course! That’s what usually happens when people get married and engage in marital relations!”
But, no, the Blessed Mother’s response is, “How can this be since I know not man?” How can I conceive a child when I’m a consecrated virgin?
Certainly this is Scriptural evidence that she was a virgin, and planned to stay a virgin.
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Doxiemom
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Now this may be a very simple answer, but here goes:
Mary had to remain a virgin forever . Her virginity proves the miracle of Jesus. If that precious proof was ever removed by Mary having sexual relations with Joseph, then how can anyone accept Him as Messiah according to all that was prophesied about His birth ?
Mary had to remain a virgin forever . Her virginity proves the miracle of Jesus. If that precious proof was ever removed by Mary having sexual relations with Joseph, then how can anyone accept Him as Messiah according to all that was prophesied about His birth ?
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erikd
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8 I have become a stranger to my brothers, And an alien to my mother’s children;
9 Because zeal for Your house has eaten me up, And the reproaches of those who reproach You have fallen on me.
10 When I wept and chastened my soul with fasting, That became my reproach.
Psalm 69: 8-10
To quote Psalm 69 with three verses is to really not do it justice. This beautiful, lamenting song is written in the metaphorical as well as the literal language and shows the suffering of a just person. This just person continues to hope in the Lord that all will one day be right despite the present conditions. The Psalmist is interested in justice, though not so much vengeance. The public vindication of God’s justice must prevail for this Psalmist to receive his lamenting wish.
This Psalm is often used to represent the passion of our Lord, as well as representing several events during the earthly life of Jesus. One in particular, as mentioned in chapter 584 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church is the story from John 2:16-17:
16 And He said to those who sold doves, “Take these things away! Do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise!”
17 Then His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up.”
St. John 2:16-17
Let’s understand this as Christians have understood this since this event took place almost 2000 years ago:
584 Jesus went up to the Temple as the privileged place of encounter with God. For him, the Temple was the dwelling of his Father, a house of prayer, and he was angered that its outer court had become a place of commerce.353 He drove merchants out of it because of jealous love for his Father: "You shall not make my Father’s house a house of trade. His disciples remembered that it was written, ‘Zeal for your house will consume me.’"354 After his Resurrection his apostles retained their reverence for the Temple.355
Catechism of the Catholic Church
These verses shown above are giving us two accounts, reconcilable within one: the lamenting Psalmist and Jesus in the Temple. Both filled with undying and jealous love for God, the Father, both wanting righteousness to prevail. They converge onto the story within the New Testament with Jesus, as distressed as the Psalmist, doing what the Psalmist could not do.
12 Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves.
13 And He said to them, "It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’ "
St. Matthew 21: 12-13
Certainly the Psalmist was lamenting, and Jesus was the force that could eliminate the problem. This event became one of the events of Jesus’ earthly life that would foreshadow His greatest victory over evil, at the expense of His own Flesh and Precious Blood.
Jesus Christ, saw people He called His brothers, sisters, and mother, all turning away from the true Word of God and into what seemed convenient to them at the time.
*50 “For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”
St. Matthew 12:50
35 “For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
St. Mark 3:35*
The reference to the word “mother” in Psalm 69:8, appears to be a reference to the “Mother of us all: Jerusalem” as it was Her children, in that temple, the brothers and sisters of Christ, that became unrecognizable to Him due to their greed and zeal for self-destruction.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Galatians 4:26
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imjustme
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God Bless you, too!
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imjustme
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Due to time restraints, I won’t quote verse, but my belief is that the Bible is the Word of God, written for our instruction by inspiration of God and that is it true and without reproof. The OT has prophecies looking forward to the NT times and beyond and the NT often refers back to the OT…and of course also looks forward such as in Revelations…however if there is something in the Bible we can’t understand, it means we need to study more and ask the Holy Spirit for more guidance. To really understand the Bible it is crucial to believe with heart and mind in Jesus and to ask guidance from the Holy Spirit. That is what it says in a nutshell. Again, I don’t have time to quote it, but if you really want to find it, it’s there…anyway, thanks for sharing your beliefs as well.Not at all! I don’t believe the Sacred Scripture explicitly says either way. That’s why we have to rely on the entirety of the Deposit of Faith, on the whole Word of God, as revealed to us by Christ through his apostles. Otherwise we miss the fullness of truth. “He who hears you, hears Me.”
Sacred Scripture* and* Sacred Tradition.
It’s like having only 1 wing to rise to the contemplation of the Truth, to paraphrase Pope JPII. (Granted, he was talking about Faith and Reason: “Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth”) *Fides et Ratio *
But I believe that using Sola Scriptura (which is un-Scriptural, BTW, unless you can quote us a chapter and verse that says all revealed truth is to be revealed in Scripture) severely hinders our contemplation of the Truth.
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imjustme
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I don’t agree about Mary but wow, that’s a very interesting understanding of Ezek. 44:1…where did you get that from? How about the Prince mentioned in the following verse? What is your understanding of who he is?
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imjustme
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Well, you have induced me to do so bible based research on my own.
Here’s what I found. there are two, and potentially three James in the New Testament.
I believe that with enough searching for names and genealogies, the understanding would be there. Unfortunately, it may be difficult because the NT is not intended as a book of genealogy as was the OT so many links are not clearly stated. But…when they say brother, it means brother
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imjustme
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I agree that the Bible has no contradictions or errors, but I give credit to GOD who inspired the writings and not the Church who simply compiled them. Why not give credit to God? I don’t understand this…don’t the Catholics also believe in the Bible being inspired by God? Of course he doesn’t make mistakes!Thank you, Paul C
that’s some great research, none of which is contradictory to my research in post 623. It just goes to show that when thinking about this in a clear headed way, no contradictions can be found no matter how you approach the subject. That is precisely how the Church has developed Her doctrines for the past 2000 years, without contradictions or errors.
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imjustme
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As I said in another post, there were three James’…and I don’t claim to be infallible…sometimes if something doesn’t make sense I do research (as I’m doing here) and learn more. I have study bibles and bibles in different translations and of course the internet. I also learn from listing to my pastor preaching and I listen to mp3s of Pastor Chuck Smith preaching…so between listening to experienced scholars, studying from reputable texts and the most important…help from the Holy Spirit which was sent by Jesus specifically for this purpose…I do ok
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imjustme
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I’m not a violent type, so no beating from me
Of course I can live with it No errors in 50 years? Wow…does that qualify you for sainthood or Pope?
((( I’m just kidding !!! - I couldn’t help myself… )))
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