James, Brother of Jesus?

[jlhargus]

I agree…no man after the flesh…that’s also why we’re not supposed to talk to the dead. Read your bible…it’s in there…really!!.

Mk12:24 And JESUS ANSWERING SAID unto them, DO YE NOT THEREFORE ERR, because YE KNOW NOT THE SCRIPTURES, NEITHER THE POWER OF GOD? 25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. 26 AND AS TOUCHING THE DEAD, that they rise: HAVE YE NOT READ IN THE BOOK OF MOSES, how IN THE BUSH GOD SPAKE UNTO HIM, saying, I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, and THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB? 27 HE IS NOT THE GOD OF THE DEAD, BUT THE GOD OF THE LIVING: YE THEREFORE DO GREATLY ERR. In Mt22:29-34 we have the same, but Matthew has two more verses [Mt22:33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine. 34 But when the Pharisees had heard that HE HAD PUT THE SADDUCEES TO SILENCE, they were gathered together. Acts23:8 (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are NEITHER ANGELS NOR SPIRITS, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.) Hb12:22 But YE ARE COME unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM Jerusalem, and TO an innumerable company of ANGELS, 23 TO the general assembly and CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN, which are written in heaven, and TO GOD the Judge of all, and TO the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT, 24 And TO JESUS the mediator]

How do I come to heavenly Jerusalem and to all those to whom Hebrews tells me I may now come? We now come only after the ascension and thru the mediation of our Lord. There were no saints in heaven before Christ assended, those living souls were in Sheol. The way I may now come are thru the wedding supper of the Lamb, the mass and thru prayer.

If you are interested in discussing the communion of Saints, start another line. I will be glad to take part. God’s people are one family those passed over and those on earth.
[Eph 3:14 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom HIS WHOLE FAMILY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH derives its name.] I have access to the holy of holies and God’s whole family in heaven or earth. I may go directly to God or ask anyone of his to pray for me the veil has been removed.

 

[jlhargus]

This link explains the miracles requirement, if you want to read about it. tektonics.org/guest/truthmiracle.html#threea

JL: I have scanned your link. So what you are saying then is a miracle must be recorded in a book to make it inspired. If I misunderstood tell me what you mean. I have also read 2John, 3John and Jude, neither mention miracles. Also I find an angle healing Tobias’ wife and Father in Tobit. In any case, there is no scriptural statement on how we determine an inspired book.

 

[PRmerger]

This verse teaches what to do when a fellow Christian sins against us and has nothing to do with the church being the foundation of truth. Read the whole instruction…

15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

(i.e. if someone sins against you, work it out with them one-on-one)

16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’**

(i.e. if that doesn’t work, try again with 2-3 witnesses)

17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church.

(i.e. if that doesn’t work, talk to the church – I would think the pastor)

But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

(i.e. if he refuses to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector - I guess they didn’t like the IRS in biblical times, either!)**

Amen! It seems, from the above, that the Church is the final authority, not the Bible, yes?

 

[jlhargus]

I don’t have a paper boy but if I did and he was a Bible reading Christian, I bet he’d be a better resource than most Catholics.

JL: Well at lest those Catholics aren’t teaching another gospel. Some of the best Christian people I know both Protestant and Catholic know little of the bible. They simply live it in love.

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by paul c
You can ask your mailman/pastor for scriptural advice if you want, it doesn’t mean he has any particular insight. That’s the point. Why do you believe him? I think its because he agrees with you. If he didn’t, you would dismiss him. .

I read the bible too. But you don’t listen to what I have to say about it, even when I quote directly from scripture. So your filter really isn’t whether its from the Bible. Your filter is whether it agrees with what you think the Bible says. That is very distinctly different from what the Bible really says. Why do you think your interpretation is the correct one? Or the mailman’s for that matter.

Originally Posted by paul c

While I didn’t use the same words, didn’t I convey the same message you did? As soon as you here something different from the pews than what you expect to hear, you leave. Is that why you left the Catholic church, because they weren’t interpreting the Bible the way you did? Because they interpret it in almost every single mass through the homilies.

Originally Posted by paul c
Frankly, you are going to great lengths to prove that Mary had children in addition to Jesus. This quote from Corinthians isn’t particularly compelling. Like a lot of Protestant answers, it is a giant twist to try to justify something that isn’t true. James and Joseph and Jude and Simon are the sons of Alpheus.and the other Mary, per Mark 15: 40 and Matthew 27: 55, they are cousins of Jesus.

No, I’m fine with hearing the non-Catholic viewpoints, but you must understand that when you bring non-Catholic viewpoints here, you will get a rebuttal. That is why we are here.
But your charge that we are using non-canonical books and making up ones of our own is simply not the truth. First of all, I have not used anything other than the 27 new testament books to address everyone of our concerns, right? I have pointed out to you that those 27 books have literally dozens of references to the Deuterocanonical books. This is because they were always in the Septuguint, which is the scriptures Jesus and the Apostles used as a base. Maybe somehow, you know more of what is canonical than our Lord…

Originally Posted by paul c
Did you even read the Catholic Encyclopedia article I gave you on the subject?

The Catholic encyclopedia used scripture to anwer you questions. For someone that says they were a Catholic for 40 years, you really never, ever used the resources available to you, did you? Why are you here? Are you trying to find out what you missed, or are you here to draw us away to your evangelical church? If its the second, you will need to explain to us why we should leave the truth as defined for the Catholic Church for your alternative truth. It will need to be better than " this is what my mailman said" for us to trust our souls to you…

Originally Posted by paul c

This is the most ironic thing you have said. The Protestant Church is in fact totally man made. By definition, it is protesting against the Church God established on earth. Yes, the truth is as it is written in Scripture. It says no Divorce, does your church follow that. It says that Faith without works is dead. Does your church preach that salvation is based on Faith alone? Jesus put Peter and his successors in charge of the church on earth, aren’t you in open defiance to that. Jesus said that the eucharist is his body, does your church believe that? It says that we need to persevere in the faith to be saved. Does you church tell you that if you profess your faith in Jesus, you are saved for all time, regardless of what you do after that?

 

[imjustme]

I’m glad you all think it’s so funny…do you forget Jesus was a carpenter?

 

[erikd]

Actually, Erik, there are tons of quotes and references to the Deuterocanonical books in the rest of scripture. scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html

In fact, there was a thread on this subject: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=4624

Paul C

I just wanted to clarify, and I’m not trying to argue with a fellow Catholic, but these are not quotes but allusions. I never said that the Deuterocanonical Books are not mentioned in the New Testament, but they are not quoted. The point I tried to make is that there are an additional 5 Old Testament Books within the Protocanonical Writings that are not quoted either. I was correct in both assertions. Here’s a paragraph from the Catholic Encyclopedia that may clarify the issue:

All the books of the Hebrew Old Testament are cited in the New except those which have been aptly called the Antilegomena of the Old Testament, viz., Esther, Ecclesiastes, and Canticles; moreover Esdras and Nehemias are not employed. The admitted absence of any explicit citation of the deutero writings does not therefore prove that they were regarded as inferior to the above-mentioned works in the eyes of New Testament personages and authors. The deutero literature was in general unsuited to their purposes, and some consideration should be given to the fact that even at its Alexandrian home it was not quoted by Jewish writers, as we saw in the case of Philo. The negative argument drawn from the non-citation of the deuterocanonicals in the New Testament is especially minimized by the indirect use made of them by the same Testament. This takes the form of allusions and reminiscences, and shows unquestionably that the Apostles and Evangelists were acquainted with the Alexandrian increment, regarded its books as at least respectable sources, and wrote more or less under its influence. A comparison of Hebrews, xi and II Machabees, vi and vii reveals unmistakable references in the former to the heroism of the martyrs glorified in the latter. There are close affinities of thought, and in some cases also of language, between 1 Peter 1:6-7, and Wisdom 3:5-6; Hebrews 1:3, and Wisdom 7:26-27; 1 Corinthians 10:9-10, and Judith 8:24-25; 1 Corinthians 6:13, and Ecclesiasticus 36:20.

newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm

 

[PRmerger]

I’m glad you all think it’s so funny…do you forget Jesus was a carpenter?

Hey, I’m not slamming carpenters, trashmen, letter carriers or anyone on this forum.

I was just laughing at a funny comment. No sin in that.

 

[imjustme]

This article on the breathren of the Lord, from the Catholic Encyclopedia answers all of your concerns: I hope you will read it.
newadvent.org/cathen/02767a.htm

It says that there are only 2 James, not 4 and gives scriptural proof. Where is your proof of the 4 James and the 8 Judes? It also explains the quote you bring up about the brothers not believing in Jesus. If you want the truth, you will read this.

Hi…sorry it took me awhile to get back to you on this…
I don’t know how important this is to the discussion, but since you asked…this is what I seem to have found. Tell me if I am off somewhere, ok? (As I already said, I never claimed to know it all).

James (brother John)…sons of Zebedee…(Luke 5:10)
James …son of Alphaeus (Luke 6:15)
James (brothers Joseph, Simon, Judas)…sons of Mary (and Jesus’ brother if you are non-Catholic…Mark 6:3
…also…PLEASE tell me your understanding of Galatian 1:19
James…father of Judas (Luke 6:16)
James the younger (brother of Joses) and son of Mary…Mark 15:40

I don’t want to find all the Judes for you, but if you are doing a Bible search, I suggest you look for Jude, Judah (Hebrew) and Judas (Greek)

I may not get back to this forum for quite some time…so if I don’t respond again, I’m not ignoring you…just busy. God Bless you.

 

[imjustme]

Hi, Imjustme

What I tried to portray in my analysis of Psalm 69 is the direct relationship between the Psalm and the Gospel of John that I quoted. The reason I was saying it is a direct relationship is because in St. John 2:17, the disciples remembered what was written in this Psalm “Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up.” I therefore made a direct corralation between the Psalm and the part of the Gospel it is prophetic of. In this part of the Gospel, we don’t hear anything about the biological brothers and sisters of Jesus, quite the opposite. I’m not sure I see the direct connection between the Psalm and the verses you quoted from St. Matthew’s Gospel. Can you elaborate on this relationship? Thanks.

Jesus is complaining of how his mother and brothers are like strangers to Him, not being believers as the apostles and other followers. This happens also when he returns to His birth town and the people make fun of Him. Similar to how the psalmist is describing his experience.

 

[adrift]

This link explains the miracles requirement, if you want to read about it.

tektonics.org/guest/truthmiracle.html#threea

Nothing in this article relates to a requirement of miracles for acceptance of Scripture. It does not address that at all. It certainly does not answer this question.

Could you give a scriptural example of Matthew personally performing a miracle, or am I totally misunderstanding

 

[imjustme]

Did you know that John 3:16 says that 'whoever believes in Me shall have eternal **life", **i’mjustme? That means those who are in heaven are ALIVE. Not dead.

Praying to the dead is forbidden in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:11 says that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.” The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death “because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance” (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Clearly God has declared that such things are not to be done.

 

[imjustme]

I read the bible too. But you don’t listen to what I have to say about it, even when I quote directly from scripture. So your filter really isn’t whether its from the Bible. Your filter is whether it agrees with what you think the Bible says. That is very distinctly different from what the Bible really says. Why do you think your interpretation is the correct one? Or the mailman’s for that matter.

Hi Paul, I’m sorry you feel that I don’t listen to what you have to say, because I really do. It may be hard to express one’s “voice” online, but you are one of few people who’s posts I’ve read with care and thought, because I can see that they are written with care and thought.

While I didn’t use the same words, didn’t I convey the same message you did? As soon as you here something different from the pews than what you expect to hear, you leave. Is that why you left the Catholic church, because they weren’t interpreting the Bible the way you did? Because they interpret it in almost every single mass through the homilies.

No, that is not why I left the Catholic Church. At the time I did, I didn’t even know that such churches as mine existed. All I knew is that my Catholic Church was not treating me right (long story…maybe for another time…) and I wasn’t being spiritually fed there. When I moved to another city and started researching new churches, this one happened to be introduced to me by a friend and while at first it seemed strange (I actually missed all the Catholic routines at first), I came to love it.

No, I’m fine with hearing the non-Catholic viewpoints, but you must understand that when you bring non-Catholic viewpoints here, you will get a rebuttal. That is why we are here.

Yes, I’ll admit, I didn’t bargain for having so many people rebutting me when I just wanted to answer the original person about James.

But your charge that we are using non-canonical books and making up ones of our own is simply not the truth. First of all, I have not used anything other than the 27 new testament books to address everyone of our concerns, right? I have pointed out to you that those 27 books have literally dozens of references to the Deuterocanonical books. This is because they were always in the Septuguint, which is the scriptures Jesus and the Apostles used as a base. Maybe somehow, you know more of what is canonical than our Lord…

The Catholic encyclopedia used scripture to anwer you questions. For someone that says they were a Catholic for 40 years, you really never, ever used the resources available to you, did you?

I did but they didn’t really speak to my heart. I’m not judging your choice of where to practice faith…we are all Christians afterall, right? So please don’t judge where the Holy Spirit brought me, either

Why are you here? Are you trying to find out what you missed, or are you here to draw us away to your evangelical church?

I came to this forum “by mistake”…a Catholic friend on facebook had a picture of the Pope with the bent staff and it offended me…long story short, I wanted to learn where the bent staff originated from and I ended up here…now I’m kinda sorry I did because although I am learning a lot about our differences, I’m finding it to be quite a time drain and my time is limited.

If its the second, you will need to explain to us why we should leave the truth as defined for the Catholic Church for your alternative truth. It will need to be better than " this is what my mailman said" for us to trust our souls to you.

Oh God, I would never want you to trust your soul to me I have enough trouble working out my own issues. If I had any say in it, I would hope you would trust your soul to God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit…but that is up to each person, right?

This is the most ironic thing you have said. The Protestant Church is in fact totally man made. By definition, it is protesting against the Church God established on earth. Yes, the truth is as it is written in Scripture. It says no Divorce, does your church follow that. It says that Faith without works is dead. Does your church preach that salvation is based on Faith alone? Jesus put Peter and his successors in charge of the church on earth, aren’t you in open defiance to that. Jesus said that the eucharist is his body, does your church believe that? It says that we need to persevere in the faith to be saved. Does you church tell you that if you profess your faith in Jesus, you are saved for all time, regardless of what you do after that?

 

[imjustme]

I’m glad to have found this forum and have enjoyed the discussions here but I think I’ve personally said enough on the topic of James being brother of Jesus which is what the original question was.

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to learn a bit more about our different perspectives and I hope to see some of you on a different thread in the future.

 

[paul_c]

Hi…sorry it took me awhile to get back to you on this…
I don’t know how important this is to the discussion, but since you asked…this is what I seem to have found. Tell me if I am off somewhere, ok? (As I already said, I never claimed to know it all).

James (brother John)…sons of Zebedee…(Luke 5:10)
James …son of Alphaeus (Luke 6:15)
James (brothers Joseph, Simon, Judas)…sons of Mary (and Jesus’ brother if you are non-Catholic…Mark 6:3
…also…PLEASE tell me your understanding of Galatian 1:19
James…father of Judas (Luke 6:16)
James the younger (brother of Joses) and son of Mary…Mark 15:40

I don’t want to find all the Judes for you, but if you are doing a Bible search, I suggest you look for Jude, Judah (Hebrew) and Judas (Greek)

I may not get back to this forum for quite some time…so if I don’t respond again, I’m not ignoring you…just busy. God Bless you.

lets take a closer look.
James and John are the sons of Zebedee and are brothers. we can easily agree on that. This James was the first apostle martytred in Acts 12: 2
He had James, the brother of John, killed by the sword

Now lets go back to the comparison of March 15:40, Matthew 27: 55-56 and John 19: 25

Mark 15:40: There were also women looking on from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of the younger James and of Joses, and Salome

Matthew 27: 55-56: There were many women there, looking on from a distance, 33 who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him. Among them were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.

John 19: 25 Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala

Assuming that All three authors witnessed the same women at the cross, you see, the one in red is Mary Magdalene in all three cases. The woman in Blue Is Mary, the mother of James and Joseph and the wife of Clopas (rendered Alpheus in Greek), and the women in Green is Salome, wife of Zebedee, sister of the Virgin Mary, and mother of James and John.

This solves the mystery of the many James’s. James, Joseph, Simon and Jude are all the sons of the other Mary (the virgin Mary’s sister in law) and Alpheus (also rendered Clopas, who by the way traditionally is St. Joseph’s brother). As you can see, these 4 were very close relatives of Jesus since both of their, hence the designation of the Lord’s breathren.

There is a Third James, though, as you point out in Luke 6. the father of Judas.

As for Galations 1-19. it just uses the same nomenclature (James, breathren of the lord, to delineate him from James, son of Zebedee.

 

[erikd]

Jesus is complaining of how his mother and brothers are like strangers to Him, not being believers as the apostles and other followers. This happens also when he returns to His birth town and the people make fun of Him. Similar to how the psalmist is describing his experience.

That, however, is an interpretation. If you believe that Jesus had siblings, you may take this verse at its meaning. But don’t forget, as I’ve been saying through this thread, Jesus used those words to describe all of His followers. Therefore, if you make the distinction between Jesus’ brothers as in blood brothers, or Jesus’ brothers as in all of His disciples, than you are making the distinction and the interpretation.

The Psalm you used refers, undeniably, to the verses in St. John’s Gospel, where we see Jesus overturning tables and “laying the law” in front of the gates of the Temple. It is undeniable because the disciples quote the Psalm. The people mentioned in this Gospel story are those who are dealing in front of the Temple as if it was a “den of thieves” and not a House of God. All of this is undeniable, true, and not an interpretation.

To quote the Psalm and refer it to Jesus’ actual Mother, is an interpretation. The Gospel verses you refered to does not quote that Psalm, and therefore it is only through your own interpretation that you would derive at that Gospel. That, right there, is the difference between a Catholic reading the Bible and a Protestant reading the Bible. I invite you to look at the Church and Her teachings, all of which have stood for the last 2000 years and served the entire world.

 

[PRmerger]

Praying to the dead is forbidden in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:11 says that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.”

I thought I referenced one verse (of many, BTW) that tells you that those in heaven are NOT dead, but have eternal LIFE!

The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death “because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance” (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Clearly God has declared that such things are not to be done.

Indeed. And the CC forbids consultation with mediums,any forms of divination or occult interactions:

All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone. CCC 2116

 

[jpaul1953]

As I said in another post, there were three James’…and I don’t claim to be infallible…sometimes if something doesn’t make sense I do research (as I’m doing here) and learn more. I have study bibles and bibles in different translations and of course the internet. I also learn from listing to my pastor preaching and I listen to mp3s of Pastor Chuck Smith preaching…so between listening to experienced scholars, studying from reputable texts and the most important…help from the Holy Spirit which was sent by Jesus specifically for this purpose…I do ok

Imjustme,

The Catholic Church put the New Testament together and then the first complete Bible called the Vulgate, not Pastor Chuck Smith. Whatever is in the NT is Catholic teaching. ST Paul said the Bible is not open for personal interpretation, bur obviously you don’t agree with the teachings of the Protestant’s prophet, St Paul, who appears to disagree, in part, with the Church’s teachings. That is only an appearance.

Understand this, all Protestants teach that the Church is wrong. Remember that and maybe it will help in your understanding of the Bible. Remeber this, there are 33,000+ denominations of non-Catholics, all with some differing opinions of the Bible and with each other. It’s obvious that many people would like to believe that their ‘Holy Spirit’ guided intepretations are rock solid. That is just our egos working on us, not the truth.

When you take away all your preconceived understandings of the Bible prior to reading it, you will be able to see the truth. The Church had no preconceived understanding of the Bible. The Church just understood it through tremendous amounts of pray for guidance.

The first protesers all believed in the Virginity of the Blessed Mother. The denominations decided to go against it because Catholics held it so tightly. And, if they accept it, then they would have to accept some of the Church’s teachings. That would be heresy against themselves.

jpaul1953

 

[adrift]

Praying to the dead is forbidden in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:11 says that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.” The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death “because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance” (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Clearly God has declared that such things are not to be done.

Praying to Saints is not forbidden in the Bible

“No Contact with the dead”

Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. “There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed” (Deut. 18:10–15).

God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, “Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now.” The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.

 

[adrift]

I’m glad to have found this forum and have enjoyed the discussions here but I think I’ve personally said enough on the topic of James being brother of Jesus which is what the original question was.

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to learn a bit more about our different perspectives and I hope to see some of you on a different thread in the future.

I believe that the subject has been well covered. There are other issues here that properly belong to other threads. Hope to read you soon.