James, head of the early Church

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Fidelis said:
You said “from the first two centuries.” Two-hundred twenty years after the death of Jesus is right there. Now, it is before the “third century.”

Oh well… …suit yourself.
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Yes I did say "from the first two centuries. The second century ended when?
Yes, “before” the third century is …uh the first two centuries…last I checked:rolleyes:
 
You are exercising a double standard. Eusebius was born about 260 and died around 341. If you depend on Eusebius you should accept Cyprian.
 
Pax said:
You are exercising a double standard. Eusebius was born about 260 and died around 341. If you depend on Eusebius you should accept Cyprian.
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The quotes from Eusebius are quoting men
from the first two centuries Pax.
I am familiar with Cyprian. He might be the first ECF to say the Peter had control over the whole church, if someone else comes to mind…although Cyprian has some other quotes which suggest all the apostles sat in Peters chair…but that is getting a little too deep into Cyprian.
 
ByzCath said:
Yes, St Cyprian may have lived 200 years later but what makes you think that you, living almost 2000 years after, are going to get it “right” when someone who lived much closer to the time and had much more contact and evidence than we have today could?
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I’d really like to see BrianH answer this question directly.

And also why the seemingly arbitrary boundary of the first two centuries? Why are they better than the third? What makes your interpretation more valid than Cyprian’s?
 
Verita said:
I’d really like to see BrianH answer this question directly.

And also why the seemingly arbitrary boundary of the first two centuries? Why are they better than the third? What makes your interpretation more valid than Cyprian’s?
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Of course the second century boundary is arbitary.
Why though? I believe that James authority is a threat to Rome’s beliefs. As the Jerusalem church became a distant memory, I would not expect many would mention it. Not to totally adopt the “winners write the history” model, thankfully we continue to unearth valuable manuscripts, but I would expect that a church that started to develop ideas about the family of Christ to deemphasize their role.
Cyprian has one view, nothing more, nothing less. I have no doubt it reflects the views of many like him.
I do not discount the “validity” of his view, I believe that historical and theological trends made it rather inevitable.
 
JonathanKinsman said:
And to think I was complaining about this windy, clear day (a chilly 68) in California!

I’ll hold our collective breath, Mr S, for the Life of Brian./quote]

wasn’t that a movie??? like from long ago… 3rd century maybe… starred James somebody…

I better duck… Brian …I hope you have a sense of humor… it has been a long day.

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It was supposed to be spoof on Christianity. It ended up looking like the founding a new sect that is a fulfillment of the Gospel and is headed by the descendants of the children of Jesus and Mary the Magdalene (through the French royal house of Cabot ?]) with the support of the Vatican Secret Police who are funded by the sale of all that secret Renaissance pornography hidden away in the vaults under the Lateran Palace that only Dan Brown and Jack Chick have access to on every other Friday.

whew, what a day! At least we have Lent coming and I’ll be able to look forward to the Solemnity of St Joseph (our parish’s namesake!) and the Annunciation of the Lord!

You’re a good man (and lucky too with all those heirs on your head!), Mr S

Pax Christi

Jonathan
 
QUOTE=JonathanKinsman;1925631]

Hang in there, BrianH, maybe Zerinus the Mormon can throw in his monkey wrench on how the whole shebang went Apostate and that Joseph Smith is REALLY Jesus’ brother!
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Well JonathanKinsman the Catholic lets see what you have here.
  1. Why “serious …verses?” Where is the humor?
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I blame public education. If I had attended BJU,it never would have happened.
  1. Why “suggests?” I found serious AND humorous verses that suggest that Boaz was Ruthless
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I do not like it when people are funnier(more funny?) than I(me?)
  1. How do YOU define “the early church?” Was this comprised of Wesleyians (who kept quiet of course for over 1400 years)?
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Good question. Undoubtedly you have not followed my posts, which seems almost unthinkable, that I attend a United Methodist church with my wife, or we would not attend church as a family. Due to numerous personal factors, I would attend the Two Spirit in the Seed Predestination Baptist Church, if it meant attending as a family.
But as to what degree the early church was Wesleyian? I would be interested in any proof from the first 2.5 centuries(arbitrary but fun) that contradict Methodist theology. Understanding that Methodists adhere to the Real Presence, well sorta…
  1. What ‘word’ in Aramaic or Hebrew is used in Jewish scripture (or Greek Septuagint’s koine Greek for that matter) to describe ‘cousin’ or brother-in-law’ or 'male relative?" I’ll give you a hint on this one: there isn’t any.
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We have debated this at length. Anepsios. But whether he is the son of Mary, step-brother of Mary is not particularly important.
  1. Are you in possession of some manuscript which purports to show Jesus giving the “keys to the kingdom” to James and not Peter?
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Nope, we are in position of the New Testament and ECF writings that clearly show he was not a Pope in ANY sense of the word. In fact, Paul states clearly he was not beholden to Peter in any way.
We await breathlessly, your resourceful reply!
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Breathlessly…cough
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MrS said:
JonathanKinsman;1925652:
And to think I was complaining about this windy, clear day (a chilly 68) in California!

I’ll hold our collective breath, Mr S, for the Life of Brian./
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quote]

wasn’t that a movie??? like from long ago… 3rd century maybe… starred James somebody…

I better duck… Brian …I hope you have a sense of humor… it has been a long day.

.
No, I do not. Your barbs do not hurt me…tis but a mere flesh wound…
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BrianH said:
Nope, we are in position of the New Testament and ECF writings that clearly show he was not a Pope in ANY sense of the word. In fact, Paul states clearly he was not beholden to Peter in any way.
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Okay, Brian, where in the NT is the above highlighted statement found?

More coming, but you better breathe deeply…

Pax Christi
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BrianH said:
JonathanKinsman;1925842 said:
youtube.com/results?search_query=monty+phython+holy+grail&search=Search
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Humor is not as funny when you have to explain it…
Life of Brian…Monty Phython was mentioned…
I reciprocated

Of course I know Monty Python (I know Eric Idle and his American wife-they live in Houston and Los Angeles) BUT (sorry to explain humor here) you were ALSO paraphrasing Romeo & Juliet.

As for Galatians, I was asking for your citation that supports (by way of express verbiage) your statement:

"In fact, Paul states clearly he was not beholden to Peter in any way."

I do not find that in Galatians. I find St Paul rebuking St Peter for his hypocrisy in following James’ instructions that he should not be eating nonkosher meals with the gentile brothers. There is NOTHING in the passage [2:11-14] that supports your statement.

Pax Christi
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BrianH said:
We have debated this at length. Anepsios. But whether he is the son of Mary, step-brother of Mary is not particularly important.
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So, Jesus spoke in koine Greek in the NT books?

I thought the word used in the NT (as in the Septuagint) was adelpho for brother and *adelphe *for sister.

Pax Christi
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JonathanKinsman said:
So, Jesus spoke in koine Greek in the NT books?

I thought the word used in the NT (as in the Septuagint) was adelpho for brother and *adelphe *for sister.

Pax Christi
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What Jesus did or did not say in his native language is conjecture. You know that. We only have what we have.
 
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