JAMES LIKOUDIS apologetics

[Addai]

I think many East Catholics and EC boards strive towards non polemical discussion. Which I think is very very wise concerning such adages as catching more flies with honey than vinegar etc. Not to mention some of the official Church positions and advice on Ecumenicism.

But I do hear polemical claims concerning Catholicism from EO folks. “That EO and Catholicism are two different Faiths” and cannot be reconciled. That Catholicism is the Church that schismated from the East and that is why all the problems happened in West during the Middle Ages culminating with the Reformation. And that “Protestantism and Catholicism are two sides of the same coin” or that “The Pope was the first Protestant”.

After hearing that for months, and even being guilty of saying the same things myself for a number of years. I think this guy does bring some perspective that helps to counterbalance the issues. I think he at least gives me a lot of “Food for thought” as far as “providing a defense for the Faith”

JAMES LIKOUDIS

Reply to a Lapsed Catholic,
now Eastern Orthodox

credo.stormloader.com/Ecumenic/eocritic.htm

QUOTE
Mr. Suaiden prattles much about Tradition and the “consensus of the Fathers” but chooses to totally ignore the simple fact that an “undivided Church” makes historical sense only where the Episcopate of the Church remains “one and undivided” (as St. Cyprian taught) because of its “solidity” with the See of Peter which presides over the communion of the Churches making up the Catholic Church.
QUOTE

This quote also really got me thinking!

 

[the_phoenix]

Dear Addai,

Just wanted to know your post makes me smile, because Jim Likoudis is a well-respected family friend, and is an especially close friend of my father, with whom he remains in contact to this day. I’ve met him (though that was a long time ago as a child), and he’s a very nice man to know, as well as being highly intelligent.

Welcome to the Catholic Answers Forums!

~~ the phoenix

 

[Madaglan]

I think many East Catholics and EC boards strive towards non polemical discussion. Which I think is very very wise concerning such adages as catching more flies with honey than vinegar etc. Not to mention some of the official Church positions and advice on Ecumenicism.

But I do hear polemical claims concerning Catholicism from EO folks. “That EO and Catholicism are two different Faiths” and cannot be reconciled. That Catholicism is the Church that schismated from the East and that is why all the problems happened in West during the Middle Ages culminating with the Reformation. And that “Protestantism and Catholicism are two sides of the same coin” or that “The Pope was the first Protestant”.

After hearing that for months, and even being guilty of saying the same things myself for a number of years. I think this guy does bring some perspective that helps to counterbalance the issues. I think he at least gives me a lot of “Food for thought” as far as “providing a defense for the Faith”

JAMES LIKOUDIS

Reply to a Lapsed Catholic,
now Eastern Orthodox

credo.stormloader.com/Ecumenic/eocritic.htm

QUOTE
Mr. Suaiden prattles much about Tradition and the “consensus of the Fathers” but chooses to totally ignore the simple fact that an “undivided Church” makes historical sense only where the Episcopate of the Church remains “one and undivided” (as St. Cyprian taught) because of its “solidity” with the See of Peter which presides over the communion of the Churches making up the Catholic Church.
QUOTE

This quote also really got me thinking!

I do not put much stock in James Likoudis. For one thing, when James Likoudis converted from Eastern Orthodoxy to Catholicism, he entered the Latin Church and not the respective Eastern Catholic Church to the Orthodox Church from which he was coming. Not that this discredits him, but it does seem to imply that Likoudis’ spiritual home is not in Eastern Christian theology (either Catholic or Orthodox) but in Latin Catholicism. This would, I think, have an influence on his ecclesiology. As I don’t know more about the man personally, I don’t want to venture into speculation. His writing is quite polemical and makes ridiculous associations, such as identifying the Orthodox with Protestants due to some supposed hatred of Rome.

I have read several of his writings and one of his books, Ending the Byzantine Greek Schism. At the time I was still Catholic although considering Orthodoxy. I found his approach to be very confrontational and even condescending towards the Orthodox. He provided an apology of sorts from a Byzantine Orthodox who converted to Latin Catholicism back in the days when the Byzantine Empire was still alive, and before the formation of the vast majority of the Eastern Catholic Churches. The convert was, in my honest judgment, self-inflated: he openly refers to his fellow Byzantines as more or less ignorant vis a vis the Latins.

James Likoudis is not the way to go. I’d instead recommend Archbishop Joseph Raya, Archbishop Elias Zoghby, Fr. Robert F. Taft, S.J., Fr. George Maloney, S.J., among others. Many Jesuits are bi-ritual and have written books on the Christian East. Some tend to be anti-Orthodox, IMHO, while many others treat the Orthodox in a more positive or at least neural light.

I can say that many pious Eastern Catholics would not agree with James Likoudis’ views and attitudes, and would likely even find themselves attacked by what he writes.

 

[Peter_J]

Madaglan,

I think you’ve given some very good reasons for not putting much stock in Likoudis; but the fact the he entered the Latin Church rather than an EC Church is (in my opinion) not a good reason. Consider, would you criticize a Catholic convert to Orthodoxy if he didn’t go WRO (Western-Rite Orthodox)?

 

[Madaglan]

Madaglan,

I think you’ve given some very good reasons for not putting much stock in Likoudis; but the fact the he entered the Latin Church rather than an EC Church is (in my opinion) not a good reason. Consider, would you criticize a Catholic convert to Orthodoxy if he didn’t go WRO (Western-Rite Orthodox)?

Having attended a Western-Rite Orthodox parish and conversing with some Western Orthodox, I can say that the ecclesiology is very similiar if not the same to Eastern Orthodox ecclesiology.

I do not see the same agreement when it comes to Latin Catholic and Eastern Catholic ecclesiology.

James Likoudis fully embraces Latin theological constructs (e.g. “The Immaculate Conception,” “Purgatory,” “Papal Primacy,” etc.) and attempts to persuade the Orthodox to accept them according to the foundational theology of these constructs.

I may have misunderstood the intention of the OP. When the OP refers to Likoudis or his words as a “counterbalance,” I took that to mean an Eastern Catholic counterbalance and not a general Catholic balance (given that the thread is in an Eastern Catholic forum). Since Likoudis is in fact a Latin Catholic who does not seem to appreciate Eastern Christian approaches (of the Eastern Catholic or the Orthodox Churches) when it comes to ecclesiology or elsewise, I do not feel that he is a good Eastern Catholic counterbalance to what is said on the Orthodox side. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Peter_J]

Having attended a Western-Rite Orthodox parish and conversing with some Western Orthodox, I can say that the ecclesiology is very similiar if not the same to Eastern Orthodox ecclesiology.

My analogy was probably a bit of a stretch. Fair enough. Nevertheless, I still don’t see his joining the Latin Church as a reason for not putting much stock in him. The other reasons you mentioned (e.g. “His writing is quite polemical and makes ridiculous associations, such as identifying the Orthodox with Protestants due to some supposed hatred of Rome.”) struck me as considerably better reasons.

 

[Allyson]

I think many East Catholics and EC boards strive towards non polemical discussion. Which I think is very very wise concerning such adages as catching more flies with honey than vinegar etc. Not to mention some of the official Church positions and advice on Ecumenicism.

But I do hear polemical claims concerning Catholicism from EO folks. “That EO and Catholicism are two different Faiths” and cannot be reconciled. That Catholicism is the Church that schismated from the East and that is why all the problems happened in West during the Middle Ages culminating with the Reformation. And that “Protestantism and Catholicism are two sides of the same coin” or that “The Pope was the first Protestant”.

After hearing that for months, and even being guilty of saying the same things myself for a number of years. I think this guy does bring some perspective that helps to counterbalance the issues. I think he at least gives me a lot of “Food for thought” as far as “providing a defense for the Faith”

JAMES LIKOUDIS

Reply to a Lapsed Catholic,
now Eastern Orthodox

credo.stormloader.com/Ecumenic/eocritic.htm

QUOTE
Mr. Suaiden prattles much about Tradition and the “consensus of the Fathers” but chooses to totally ignore the simple fact that an “undivided Church” makes historical sense only where the Episcopate of the Church remains “one and undivided” (as St. Cyprian taught) because of its “solidity” with the See of Peter which presides over the communion of the Churches making up the Catholic Church.
QUOTE

This quote also really got me thinking!

While this is a very interesting post, I am not sure what its purpose is or why it belongs in this forum. Could you please explain?

Perplexed,
R.

 

[Peter_J]

I may have misunderstood the intention of the OP. When the OP refers to Likoudis or his words as a “counterbalance,” I took that to mean an Eastern Catholic counterbalance and not a general Catholic balance (given that the thread is in an Eastern Catholic forum).

While this is a very interesting post, I am not sure what its purpose is or why it belongs in this forum. Could you please explain?

Perplexed,
R.

This seems to me one of those threads which could go either in the Non-Catholic Religions forum OR in this (Eastern Catholicism) forum.

In such situations, I think it just depends on what the thread-starter wants: if he’s interested in hearing the Eastern Catholic view on something, the thread ought to go here. If he’s interested in hearing the Orthodox view (or both views), he’ll want to put the thread in the Non-Catholic Religions forum.

-Peter.

P.S. If it had been me, I probably would have started this thread in Non-Catholic Religions – but that’s neither here nor there, since I’m not in fact the thread starter.

 

[Allyson]

This seems to me one of those threads which could go either in the Non-Catholic Religions forum OR in this (Eastern Catholicism) forum.

In such situations, I think it just depends on what the thread-starter wants: if he’s interested in hearing the Eastern Catholic view on something, the thread ought to go here. If he’s interested in hearing the Orthodox view (or both views), he’ll want to put the thread in the Non-Catholic Religions forum.

-Peter.

P.S. If it had been me, I probably would have started this thread in Non-Catholic Religions – but that’s neither here nor there, since I’m not in fact the thread starter.

Precisely! I would have put it in Non-Catholic Religions too (as I originally read it before any replies were made), since the link is to a response to an Orthodox, it seems implied that an Orthodox response would be implicitly forthcoming. I do not fit that role.
I waited to respond and read it over again. I still could not make sense of it. Hence my question. A little extra direction will help.

Rosemary

 

[Addai]

Precisely! I would have put it in Non-Catholic Religions too (as I originally read it before any replies were made), since the link is to a response to an Orthodox, it seems implied that an Orthodox response would be implicitly forthcoming. I do not fit that role.
I waited to respond and read it over again. I still could not make sense of it. Hence my question. A little extra direction will help.

Rosemary

lol

Well at the time I guess I assumed that the author had joined the Greek Catholic Church. That was purely an assumption based on knowing that was normative and also seeing his last name which is obviously Greek. But you know what they say about assumptions…

Besides that there was another motivation. I deal with Orthodox almost every day. And know what they often have to say. I also get wearied of it (my wife is giving me a bad time right now). So I’m looking for a sanctuary, to hear the EC point of view and not to be lectured to etc. by my Orthodox compadres (for treason for considering being EC).

 

[ASimpleSinner]

With respect for James, and an appreciation for his work being out there at a time when I found it difficult to find any strong answer to Orthodox objections, his work can be a bit “old school cold warrior” and written in a fashion where no matter how strong his points, his style can be rather off-putting.

By and large, I don’t point anyone who is “on the fence” to his works. I trust and pray that I may be able to sift through it and move past the invectives of it… and then what is good, I try to remember and use. But I honestly never direct folks who are OTJ or Romeward gazing to his stuff. If he expurgated some of the content, I would reconsider.

 

[Allyson]

lol

Well at the time I guess I assumed that the author had joined the Greek Catholic Church. That was purely an assumption based on knowing that was normative and also seeing his last name which is obviously Greek. But you know what they say about assumptions…

Besides that there was another motivation. I deal with Orthodox almost every day. And know what they often have to say. I also get wearied of it (my wife is giving me a bad time right now). So I’m looking for a sanctuary, to hear the EC point of view and not to be lectured to etc. by my Orthodox compadres (for treason for considering being EC).

That brings it together right there. Thanks.

So other than holding communion with Rome, what would you see as the biggest difference between being EC and being EO?

Btw, the reaction goes the other way too. A good friend of mine recently became Orthodox, and it would be fair to say that some (but not all) of mutual Catholic friends were not particularly pleased for the same reasons you mentioned on the EO side. How people express it differs according to personality, but I think that the general feeling is that you are turning your back on the true Church (by leaving on communion for the other - either way). On that point at least, sympathy can be found.

God Bless,
Rosemary

 

[Allyson]

From what I have seen of JL, what he presents is a very Latin view of ecclesiology (See Mad’s point) and as SimpleSinner said - old school. This is very distinct from the traditional EC view, from what I have learned.

He also seems to be a prime example of the zeal of a convert. A little overbearing.

God Bless,
Rosemary

 

[Madaglan]

With respect for James, and an appreciation for his work being out there at a time when I found it difficult to find any strong answer to Orthodox objections, his work can be a bit “old school cold warrior” and written in a fashion where no matter how strong his points, his style can be rather off-putting.

By and large, I don’t point anyone who is “on the fence” to his works. I trust and pray that I may be able to sift through it and move past the invectives of it… and then what is good, I try to remember and use. But I honestly never direct folks who are OTJ or Romeward gazing to his stuff. If he expurgated some of the content, I would reconsider.

You may want to read the following: apologetika.tripod.com/likoudis.html

There is variety of opinion amongst Eastern Catholics as to how communion with Rome should be understood, and what it means for Church life and administration. So, you’ll find some who bear a striking resemblance to the ultra-montanists of the Latin Church; and then you’ll also find others who appear almost mirror images of the Orthodox.

 

[Addai]

That brings it together right there. Thanks.

So other than holding communion with Rome, what would you see as the biggest difference between being EC and being EO?

Well one big one, listening to the Catholic radio station EWTN last night, indulgences is one big one. Being raised Lutheran I’m not so crazy about that one. But at least the Maronites seem to downplay that a bit in “Captivated By Your Teaching”

“Sunday Obligation” is another. I think this unoficially expected. Although if it was official it might help to coax some Orthodox to come to church on Sunday. Right now I work non regular hours, graveyard shift and work on the weekend. So Wednesday morning has been my Sunday. But due to sleeping problems, I probably will come to vespers as my main service. And Wedesday morning eucharist when I can. My wife has been really horrible at attending church without me (When I changed jobs and schedules). She goes months without attending church…

The Fasting rules are less stringent. Even traditional Maronite ones, which are considered ascetic by the Catholic sites (This is a really good thing because that was one area of culture shock I never completely recovered from. In the Coptic church we fast 210 of the 365 days of the year!).

The liturgy is more modified. I’m not always so crazy about some changes (like getting rid of the altar in Vatican II and using a table instead). But after serving at the altar etc. I’ve occasionaly wished the liturgy might be shortened, especially when kneeling or bowing for minutes on end. This is especially true when you consider some of the repetition that is done. Like saying the Lord’s prayer 7 times during the service. And saying it at auctioneers speed. (This is a peculiar bad Coptic habit). The liturgys is so long and longwinded in places that it actually encourages people to breeze through parts of it that do not involve the most sacred moments around the epiclesis, praying for forgiveness of sins etc.

There is more of a positive spirit toward ecumenicism with Catholicism (And I really agree with it although I didn’t like some of JP II hanging around non Christian faiths which I think made people think he was promoting Unitarianism). But I love what going on with Ravenna. Unfortately, Orthodox are not so positive to the point of really seeming like they don’t wan’t any reunification to happen. My wife really comes acrossed that way. Even though you mention all the positive things its like they are worried about being infected by heresy or Latinization etc.

And of course there are Aristotlean differences in theosis etc. EC use more an Easten/Orthodox view on that. But RC has more of a static “state of grace” view that I suspect probably creeps in. Especially among some of the more latinized ECs.

 

[Addai]

With respect for James, and an appreciation for his work being out there at a time when I found it difficult to find any strong answer to Orthodox objections, his work can be a bit “old school cold warrior” and written in a fashion where no matter how strong his points, his style can be rather off-putting.

By and large, I don’t point anyone who is “on the fence” to his works. I trust and pray that I may be able to sift through it and move past the invectives of it… and then what is good, I try to remember and use. But I honestly never direct folks who are OTJ or Romeward gazing to his stuff. If he expurgated some of the content, I would reconsider.

It probably isn’t the best for most fence sitters. But I have benefited by reading some far right wing Orthodox writings by folks from Orchid Land publications aka “Orlapubs” and “The Orthodox Information Center”. So I just see James as being a Catholic equivalent to those resources.

 

[Madaglan]

Well one big one, listening to the Catholic radio station EWTN last night, indulgences is one big one. Being raised Lutheran I’m not so crazy about that one. But at least the Maronites seem to downplay that a bit in “Captivated By Your Teaching”

“Sunday Obligation” is another. I think this unoficially expected. Although if it was official it might help to coax some Orthodox to come to church on Sunday. Right now I work non regular hours, graveyard shift and work on the weekend. So Wednesday morning has been my Sunday. But due to sleeping problems, I probably will come to vespers as my main service. And Wedesday morning eucharist when I can. My wife has been really horrible at attending church without me (When I changed jobs and schedules). She goes months without attending church…

The Fasting rules are less stringent. Even traditional Maronite ones, which are considered ascetic by the Catholic sites (This is a really good thing because that was one area of culture shock I never completely recovered from. In the Coptic church we fast 210 of the 365 days of the year!).

The liturgy is more modified. I’m not always so crazy about some changes (like getting rid of the altar in Vatican II and using a table instead). But after serving at the altar etc. I’ve occasionaly wished the liturgy might be shortened, especially when kneeling or bowing for minutes on end. This is especially true when you consider some of the repetition that is done. Like saying the Lord’s prayer 7 times during the service. And saying it at auctioneers speed. (This is a peculiar bad Coptic habit). The liturgys is so long and longwinded in places that it actually encourages people to breeze through parts of it that do not involve the most sacred moments around the epiclesis, praying for forgiveness of sins etc.

There is more of a positive spirit toward ecumenicism with Catholicism (And I really agree with it although I didn’t like some of JP II hanging around non Christian faiths which I think made people think he was promoting Unitarianism). But I love what going on with Ravenna. Unfortately, Orthodox are not so positive to the point of really seeming like they don’t wan’t any reunification to happen. My wife really comes acrossed that way. Even though you mention all the positive things its like they are worried about being infected by heresy or Latinization etc.

And of course there are Aristotlean differences in theosis etc. EC use more an Easten/Orthodox view on that. But RC has more of a static “state of grace” view that I suspect probably creeps in. Especially among some of the more latinized ECs.

How long is the Coptic Divine Liturgy? You guys normally ollow the Liturgy of St. Basil, right?

 

[ASimpleSinner]

It probably isn’t the best for most fence sitters. But I have benefited by reading some far right wing Orthodox writings by folks from Orchid Land publications aka “Orlapubs” and “The Orthodox Information Center”. So I just see James as being a Catholic equivalent to those resources.

Fair enough.

I suppose the difference with distinction is that Likoudis paints a picture with a nuanced understanding of de fide teaching… whereas a group like the OIC seems to gravitate towards a polemic and hermeneutic of understanding different theological opinions clearly predicated on what is somewhat of a foregone conclusion. To put it more plainly, in the absense of a magisterium, there is a great deal of latitude in what is best termed “theological speculation” among the Orthodox… The OIC always seems to favor the most anti-Catholic options.

 

[Addai]

How long is the Coptic Divine Liturgy? You guys normally ollow the Liturgy of St. Basil, right?

We do both St. Basil and St. Cyril.

If you get at the very start Matins to the finish, it clocks in at 3 1/2 hours. If you have bishops visiting or special feast/ fast days where you add extra hymns, prayers etc. then add 10-30 minutes. (often the problem is the delay. You often tend to greet the bishop with a procession, and have him take over as the liturgical leader. But there can be a brief pause as you wait for a bishop to arrive to continue the service. They do try to compensate for this. By starting things early. And people often come at varying times througout.

But as I like to say things sometimes happen “In Coptic time” (like Hawaiians, there can often be a looseness at following rigid schedules where people tend to show up late).

That is probably the biggest difference then any other church I’ve attended (Even Orthodox ones) where things usually work like clockwork at least in the U.S. As I’ve begun to notice with African Christians, (Ethiopians included) Schedules and time lines are considered suggestions and guidlines rather then absolutes.

 

[Volodymyr]

Madaglan,

Consider, would you criticize a Catholic convert to Orthodoxy if he didn’t go WRO (Western-Rite Orthodox)?

No. Western Rite Orthodoxy is some unfortunate anomaly to create pseudo Christian unity. It is similar to Eastern Catoics - both are not liked by church they imitate and not understood by church which offers them home. I believe to be Orthodox is to worship like Orthodox - why we call ourselves pravosavnije - we who worship correctly. Such Western orthodoxy is like Eastern Catolics - confusing and not helpful to ultimate return of all christians to one Christian church. Despite Patriarch Tikhon who developed such churches I think many Orthodox are not deeply supporting them. Yes, I think those who want Orthodoxy should want to worship with other Orthodox peoples and not with Catolics and Anglicans.