James White and the others

[SEMPEREFORMANDA]

“SEMPEREFORMANDA”

Hi James

I’m not James White. I do not even know him personally.

The talk is about an hour long, but I would advise everyone on this site to read this link. I am listening to it as I speak. Only 10 to 11 minutes into his talk, Dr. White says that people who convert to the Catholic Church are shallow and emotional. Please listen. I am also surprised at how often he calls her Ms. Bonds(is that the correct spelling of her name) instead of my sister. He criticzes her for going public with her conversion. Again, everyone take time to listen to this.

Actually, I’m listening to the same link now. He says, “I remember back in the 80s, when I first started encountering the materials of Catholic Answers that they sort of…they talked down the conversion stories because most of the conversion story books were Roman Catholics who had converted from Roman Catholicism…and the Catholic apologists would talk that down… “why go to former members…that’s not good apologetics that’s emotional….” And now all of the sudden conversion books are all the rage…there’s a problem with conversion stories of course: most of them are extremely shallow. By their very nature they have to be…most of these folks are brand new and it’s not like they’ve had a whole lot of time to, you know, study a lot of stuff…”

He isn’t only speaking about converts to Rome. All conversion stories are sort of shallow because new converts are…NEW!
Please, let’s not misrepresent. That’s the whole reason I started posting here.
In fact, your comments were so out of context that you ignored the fact that in the 1980s the Roman apologists considered conversion stories to be shallow and emotional.

Edited for spelling

 

[deb1]

SEMPEREFORMANDA:

I’m not James White. I do not even know him personally.

Actually, I’m listening to the same link now. He says, “I remember back in the 80s, when I first started encountering the materials of Catholic Answers that they sort of…they talked down the conversion stories because most of the conversion story books were Roman Catholics who had converted from Roman Catholicism…and the Catholic apologists would talk that down… “why go to former members…that’s not good apologetics that’s emotional….” And now all of the sudden conversion books are all the rage…there’s a problem with conversion stories of course: most of them are extremely shallow. By their very nature they have to be…most of these folks are brand new and it’s not like they’ve had a whole lot of time to, you know, study a lot of stuff…”

He isn’t only speaking about converts to Rome. All conversion stories are sort of shallow because new converts are…NEW!
Please, let’s not misrepresent. That’s the whole reason I started posting here.
In fact, your comments were so out of context that you ignored the fact that in the 1980s the Roman apologists considered conversion stories to be shallow and emotional.

Edited for spelling

Hopefully, people on this site will listen to the link. It is over an hour long, so it might take some patience on the part of the listner. So the whole reason that you started posting here was that people were misrepresenting? You didn’t comment on who or what they were misrepresenting? James White, The Catholic Church, Protestants?

 

[RyanL]

SEMPEREFORMANDA:

He isn’t only speaking about converts to Rome. All conversion stories are sort of shallow because new converts are…NEW!.. In fact, your comments were so out of context that you ignored the fact that in the 1980s the Roman apologists considered conversion stories to be shallow and emotional.

Semper,

I am finishing listening to the link now. If you have any contact with James White, I would recommend telling him, “It’s not what you say, it’s how you say it.” If he wants to reconcile with his sister, he should be humble, as our Good Lord has demanded of us.

The link you provided was not the talk of a humble man.

As for converts - I would challenge you to show that either Scott Hahn or Cardinal Newman (both of whom were discussed in the link) are what you would call “shallow” in their knowledge of Catholicism. Or Tim Staples. Or any of the people on this page: chnetwork.org/converts.htm . Most are former Protestant clergy - it’s unwise to assume that they had shallow knowledge of either their own faith or the faith to which they were led. Perhaps reading their conversion stories would help you to see that this is simply false rhetoric - Ad Hominem
attacks are the last gasp of a refuted argument.

Peace be with you,
RyanL

 

[Mickey]

RyanL:

The link you provided was not the talk of a humble man.

Amen, Ryan!

---

As with the appearance of light, darkness retreats; so, at the fragrance of humility, all anger and bitterness vanishes.
** St. John Climacus**

**Do not become a disciple of one who praises himself, in case you learn pride instead of Humility. **
St. Mark the Ascetic

**God descends to the humble as waters flow down from the hills into the valleys. **
St. John of Kronstadt

Humility is the only thing we need; one can still fall having virtues other than humility – but with humility one does not fall.
**St. Benedict **

**I saw the snares that the enemy spreads out over the world and I said groaning, “What can get through from such snares?” Then I heard a voice saying to me, “Humility”. **
**St. Anthony the Great **

 

[SEMPEREFORMANDA]

deb1:

Hopefully, people on this site will listen to the link. It is over an hour long, so it might take some patience on the part of the listner. So the whole reason that you started posting here was that people were misrepresenting? You didn’t comment on who or what they were misrepresenting? James White, The Catholic Church, Protestants?

See my first post. I go through and demonstrate how White’s comments are taken out of context and his real concerns ignored (e.g., speaking of the Vatican). I also noted that if he’s in it for the money (as was alledged) then he’s found a very bad way to do it. Further, I pointed out that it’s unfair and inaccurate to refer to his ministry as antiCatholic rather than pro Protestant. Also, I just wanted to be sure that people had all the information about White’s sister’s conversion. It might seem like great apologetics at first, until you realize that she never meaningfully interacted with James’ work before she crossed the Tiber.

Hope you see my concerns now.

 

[SEMPEREFORMANDA]

RyanL:

Semper,

I am finishing listening to the link now. If you have any contact with James White, I would recommend telling him, “It’s not what you say, it’s how you say it.” If he wants to reconcile with his sister, he should be humble, as our Good Lord has demanded of us.

I do not have any contact with Dr. White. As I said, I do not know him. And yes, he can be a bit harsh at times. However, I would ask that you look past any personal distaste for how he expresses himself and see if he presents factual information. The truth is more imporant than tone. I don’t know what he wants in terms of relations with Patty Bonds. However, I certainly understand why he would want to avoid her threats of litigation.

The link you provided was not the talk of a humble man.

Maybe not, I’ll leave that for you to decide. I wanted you to hear the facts of his side, not necessarily how he said it.

As for converts - I would challenge you to show that either Scott Hahn or Cardinal Newman (both of whom were discussed in the link) are what you would call “shallow” in their knowledge of Catholicism. Or Tim Staples. Or any of the people on this page: chnetwork.org/converts.htm . Most are former Protestant clergy - it’s unwise to assume that they had shallow knowledge of either their own faith or the faith to which they were led. Perhaps reading their conversion stories would help you to see that this is simply false rhetoric - Ad Hominem
attacks are the last gasp of a refuted argument.

I also deplore ad hominem. However, I do think that it is frequently thrown around without cause. In the link James claims that his sister never really understood Reformed faith. He then documents this. That’s not ad hom. If he’d merely claimed it, and then, on that basis, said, “Therefore we do not need to take her seriously” that would be ad hominem.

I do see, however, that I used the word “all” in reference to new converts being shallow. That was a mistake. I would like to revise that. I should say what Dr. White said (see my brief transcription), that most conversion stories are shallow.

I’m making no claim for the various RCC apologists’ conversions.

Peace be with you,
RyanL

you too

 

[RyanL]

James White is an anti-Catholic. Period.

From his website, about quitting Operation Rescue (which protests abortion):

On the practical level, this meant that if I were to find myself in a jail cell with a Roman Catholic it was my duty and obligation to join hands with this person as a fellow believer in Christ, no questions asked. I could not address the issues that separated us. I could not contrast the finished work of Christ, and His free grace, with the Roman concept of the Mass as a propitiatory sacrifice, and the idea of merit.*[This grossly misrepresents the actual teaching of the Church, BTW]

I could not, if convinced of its necessity, share the gospel of grace with this Roman Catholic, for this would amount to a “division in the ranks” so to speak, and would detract from the focus of the work. This reality quickly drove me from the organization, and helped me to see the very error that has now been enshrined in Evangelicals and Catholics Together.

He will not take ranks with Catholics to protest one of the greatest evils that plagues our country. He has, by his own declaration, willingly steps to the sidelines as Catholics fight the work of Satan. That fact alone shows that he is not with us, and to paraphrase Christ, “If you’re not with us, you’re against us.”

Peace,
RyanL

 

[Mickey]

SEMPEREFORMANDA:

The truth is more imporant than tone.

The truth according to whom? A reformed baptist will probably interpret JW’s words as truth, but many Catholics, Orthodox, and other protestants may not. It’s all perspective my friend.

ps–a condescending tone can be a very telling sign.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

SEMPER-

I hope you can answer this question. I made a thread a few days ago but nobody can tell me what “semper reformanda” means, here is the thread.

 

[Mickey]

Catholic Dude:

SEMPER-

I hope you can answer this question. I made a thread a few days ago but nobody can tell me what “semper reformanda” means, here is the thread.

I believe that it literally means: "always about to be reformed"

 

[deb1]

ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ102.HTM

Here is another version of the Patty Bond story. It is by Dave Armstrong so it is biased.

 

[SEMPEREFORMANDA]

Mickey:

I believe that it literally means: "always about to be reformed"

This may or may not be the literal meaning of it if you parse the grammar (Latin is not one of the languages that I really know).

However, in the sense that Protestants use it, we are always reforming. In essence, as we understand the Scriptures better (both through linguistic and historical research as well as removing our own prejudices) we desire to conform our beliefs and practices to the Scriptures.

Mickey:

The truth according to whom? A reformed baptist will probably interpret JW’s words as truth, but many Catholics, Orthodox, and other protestants may not. It’s all perspective my friend.

No, it’s not. It’s either true or it is not. My interpretation (or yours) does not settle the matter. Perspective may lead us to be mistaken, but it never affects the veracity of a statement.

In the post you respond to, I am speaking specifically about the facts surrounding Patty Bonds’ conversion and her interaction with Dr. White prior and subsequent to said conversion. Whether he is mistaken about the propriety of her conversion or not, it is still factual that she never really interacted with him and that the reason he broke of contact was that she began dropping litigious hints.

RyanL:

the Roman concept of the Mass as a propitiatory sacrifice, and the idea of merit.[This grossly misrepresents the actual teaching of the Church, BTW]

How does this misrepresent Rome? Does Rome teach the need for merit? Does Rome teach the mass as propitiatory sacrifice?
White (and other [though not all] Protestants) know that Rome does not deny the need for grace and faith (less so the latter after Vatican II) for salvation. Don’t jump to conclusions about what he thinks you believe about the mass…

 

[Mickey]

SEMPEREFORMANDA:

It’s either true or it is not…

Exactly!

SEMPEREFORMANDA:

My interpretation (or yours) does not settle the matter.

Right again! I believe that the Catholic Church is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church–the one true Church. As a reformed baptist, you do not. One of us is wrong.

SEMPEREFORMANDA:

Perspective may lead us to be mistaken, but it never affects the veracity of a statement.

You are three for three!

SEMPEREFORMANDA:

it is still factual that she never really interacted with him and that the reason he broke off contact was that she began dropping litigious hints.

I thought you did not not know either one of them on a personal level. Which one is being more factual? Do you believe everything JW says and/or writes. It is unlikely that you know the truth of this matter. Only God knows.

 

[SEMPEREFORMANDA]

True, I have more or less given Dr. White the benefit of the doubt. In the audio file I posted above he says that he is willing to share the saved letters between him and Patty to interested parties. If you do not believe his story perhaps you could contact the ministry, explain your interest and ask if you could see some of this archived correspondence.

Now…this file was three years old, so I don’t know if the letters are still around or the offer still holds…
Also, you could try to contact Patty Bonds (except as I recall she destroyed James’ letters to her.)

 

[RyanL]

SEMPEREFORMANDA:

How does this misrepresent Rome? Does Rome teach the need for merit? Does Rome teach the mass as propitiatory sacrifice?
White (and other [though not all] Protestants) know that Rome does not deny the need for grace and faith (less so the latter after Vatican II) for salvation. Don’t jump to conclusions about what he thinks you believe about the mass…

Semper,

Creative editing doesn’t cut it. Look at the context. What Dr. White describes grossly misrepresents the Catholic (NOT JUST ROMAN - don’t forget the 200 million Orthodox!) position because the way it is phrased it presents a false dichotomy between the finished work of Christ and the eternal nature of His sacrifice, as well as another false dichotomy between free grace and the mass. The way it was phrased creates the image that Catholics somehow don’t believe that Christ did enough for us on the cross or that under a semi-Pelagian thought process we could merit God’s grace by our own right. This is complete bunk! This is a caricature of the Catholic position, and implies either a lack of understanding or a deliberate attempt to distort the truth. Either way, it’s dishonest.

If you still don’t think James White is anti-Catholic, pick up his book “Sola Scriptura”. I nearly split my side laughing at how badly distorted an image he (and others) presented of the Catholic Church. Very disappointing.

Peace be with you,
RyanL

 

[Mickey]

SEMPEREFORMANDA:

True, I have more or less given Dr. White the benefit of the doubt. In the audio file I posted above he says that he is willing to share the saved letters between him and Patty to interested parties. If you do not believe his story perhaps you could contact the ministry, explain your interest and ask if you could see some of this archived correspondence.

It would not benefit me to know more about this private and personal family tragedy, and frankly, I am shocked that JW would be willing to share his sister’s private letters with the world. All I can do is pray for the healing of this family. Patty’s conversion to the Catholic Church is a true blessing and I hope their entire family can one day follow the advice of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and love one another.

 

[SEMPEREFORMANDA]

RyanL:

Semper,

Creative editing doesn’t cut it. Look at the context. What Dr. White describes grossly misrepresents the Catholic (NOT JUST ROMAN - don’t forget the 200 million Orthodox!) position because the way it is phrased it presents a false dichotomy between the finished work of Christ and the eternal nature of His sacrifice, as well as another false dichotomy between free grace and the mass. The way it was phrased creates the image that Catholics somehow don’t believe that Christ did enough for us on the cross or that under a semi-Pelagian thought process we could merit God’s grace by our own right. This is complete bunk! This is a caricature of the Catholic position, and implies either a lack of understanding or a deliberate attempt to distort the truth. Either way, it’s dishonest.

Have you listened to White’s debate with Pacwa on the Mass?
You can find it at www.straitgate.com
He does not misrepresent the Mass. Instead he argues that the Catholic position of the Mass is incompatible with what the Scripture says about Christ’s sacrifice. I’ve also never heard White say that the RCC teaches that people can merit their salvation without God’s grace. I really do think that you are reading more into White’s statements than is there.

His contention is that the Roman position ultimately contradicts and is incompatible with free grace, not that the RCC actually explicitly denies it.

If you still don’t think James White is anti-Catholic, pick up his book “Sola Scriptura”. I nearly split my side laughing at how badly distorted an image he (and others) presented of the Catholic Church. Very disappointing.

I’ve not read it, but for the record the title is Scripture Alone.
Please define anti-Catholic. Is Scott Hahn anti-Protestant. Is Pat Madrid? Tim Staples? Steve Ray? I’m just asking for consistancy.

Peace be with you,
RyanL

Again, you too

 

[SEMPEREFORMANDA]

Mickey:

It would not benefit me to know more about this private and personal family tragedy,

It stopped being private and personal when Patty Bonds started using her conversion as an apologetic tool and posted her contextless response to Dr. White’s farewell letter on her website.

and frankly, I am shocked that JW would be willing to share his sister’s private letters with the world.

He takes the truth and his ministry seriously enough to be willing to provide documentation and vindicate his honesty and integrity.

All I can do is pray for the healing of this family.

Same here.

Patty’s conversion to the Catholic Church is a true blessing

Obviously, I cannot agree.

and I hope their entire family can one day follow the advice of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and love one another.

Would that all people would follow Christ and his teachings.

Edit: I meant to point out that since, as far as I am aware, Mrs. Bonds has not refuted or challenged Dr. White’s claims regarding their interaction, if you are not willing to look into finding documentation yourself that you should accept Dr. White’s reconstruction. If evidence is available and you are unwilling to take it, then you cannot really make claims to the contrary.

 

[Jedi_Master]

It’s not as if James is …refusing to interact with any others.

would you like to rephrase that? Or should I start giving some instances?

 

[Mickey]

SEMPEREFORMANDA:

It stopped being private and personal when Patty Bonds started using her conversion as an apologetic tool and posted her contextless response to Dr. White’s farewell letter on her website.

None of it should have been made public. Two wrongs do not make a right. Patty was full of zeal because she had discovered the truth.

SEMPEREFORMANDA:

He takes the truth and his ministry seriously enough to be willing to provide documentation and vindicate his honesty and integrity.

Again, I sincerely believe that he does not have the fullness of truth. And what he is vindicating is his wounded ego.

SEMPEREFORMANDA:

Obviously, I cannot agree.

Obviously.

SEMPEREFORMANDA:

Would that all people would follow Christ and his teachings.

Amen!

SEMPEREFORMANDA:
Edit: I meant to point out that since, as far as I am aware, Mrs. Bonds has not refuted or challenged Dr. White’s claims regarding their interaction,
She probably realized that a public forum was no place to continue debating a family rift.

SEMPEREFORMANDA:
if you are not willing to look into finding documentation yourself that you should accept Dr. White’s reconstruction.
I’ve read enough my friend. I could never accept JW’s reconstructions. I’ve read too many of his rantings based on misconceptions of the Catholic Church. He’s a top notch debater, but I take everything he says with a grain of salt. Good debating does not win me over–the Truth does.

God bless you!