James White Debate

[Catholic4aReasn]

CatholicDude:

As to James White coming on Catholic Answers Live. Well, it turns out, Dr. White has proposed the idea several times, but thus far, to the best of my knowledge, neither Jimmy Akin or Karl Keating will debate him. Now, I don’t think that neither Mr. Akin or Mr. Keating are “afraid” to debate Dr. White as Dr. White claims. Perhaps it’s a personal issue, I don’t know. And I wouldn’t blame them. All Dr. White has done within the past fourteen years or so is have taken swipe after swipe at Catholic Answers (one need only look at his web-section dealing with Catholicism). That being the case, I don’t find it too difficult to understand why some Catholic apologists refuse to debate him

– CatholicDude

Sometimes ya just gotta shake the dust.

 

[CatholicDude]

I’d love to see Dr. White on Catholic Answers Live, but I don’t think I’ll live to see it.

Or see Jimmy Akin on White’s The Dividing Line.

sigh Sometimes all we can do is dream about such things. I actually had a Protestant friend call in to ask Mr. Akin if he would be willing to debate Dr. White, but the operator lady said the question was not “appropriate” for the show, and cut him off. Oh well…

– CatholicDude

 

[fulloftruth]

By Coach:

A wise man once told me the story of a bike shop. A bike shop that could thoroughly equip me for every single bike trip I could embark upon. It had water bottles, pedals, new seats, helmets, gloves, US Mail Jerseys like Lance Armstrong wears, and spandex as far as the eye could see. It had bar ends, toe clips, clipless pedals, and everything else you could imagine a biker to need. It was able to fully equip me as a biker.

Now, if this bike shop, could fully equip me for every good single bike-related activity I could possibly do, wouldn’t it be sufficient for me as a biker?

And similarly, if 2 Tim. 3:16-17 tells me that the Scripture can fully equip me, making me complete for every good work, does it not follow that Scripture is sufficient as a rule of faith?

As it says in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church, " the church finds herself under the Word." She does not lord over it like some of the posters on this site would have you believe. All of her teachings can be found explicitly, or implicitly in Sacred Scripture, and nothing she teaches or has ever taught contradicts Scripture.

 

[MBS1]

While the bike shop could fully equip you, what if you had never been on a bike before. Would you automatically know how to use the equipment or ride the bike? Or would it be helpful if someone (say the bike shop owner) actually showed you how it all worked and fit together.

Our soldiers in Iraq are fully equipped to do battle, but I’ll be they are glad they have been trained on how to use the equipment .
MBS1

 

[Tim_Prescott]

"No, and I never claimed it. If having an infallible interpreter solves this dilemma of disagreement…why do I see so much disagreement among Catholics on issues like Thomists Vs. Molinists, Novus Ordo Folks vs. the Traditionalists, Sedevacantists vs. mainstream Roman Catholicism, among many many many other issues.

There are disagreements among those who hold to sola Scriptura, I’ll admit it. But that doesn’t discount the rule of faith!"

The infallible interpreter does not solve the dilemma of disagreement. People can disagree to their heart’s content–they have free will to do that. Jesus could not even keep the apostles from arguing among themselves who should be the greatest–even after he made Simon the first Pope! They can argue all their lives but that has nothing to do with the correctness of the infallible interpreter–which is the Church. And if you don’t agree with the interpretation of the infallible Church, you let go from the pillar and foundation of truth.

Yeah but remember Catholic have a far greater organic unity in so many more things then protestants, so even though we have differences we are united in a COMMON WORSHIP, HIERACHY, SACRAMENTS AND LITURGY…The biggest problem in unity in the Catholic Church occured after Vatican II when we adopted protestant thinking and language etc…And that says it all about the errors of Protestantism, it is a disease and most be eradicated from the Catholic Church. The truth that exists in Protestantism only comes from the Catholic Church…FACE IT THERE IS NO HOME LIKE ROME!!!

 

[Scalia]

c0achmcguirk:

James White posts on Catholic message boards always amuse me because of the attacks on lil’ ol Dr. White. The thread always degenerates into a “Dr. White is unloving” and “James White only wants to argue for argument’s sake” etc. Why? Well, when there are over 50 moderated debates under his belt with no clear cut losses…his detractors are left with little else than to attack his character.

1. If you are going to drag someone’s reputation into the mud, please provide evidence for your claims. If you claim Dr. White is “unloving” and “arrogant”–provide quotes (in context) and citations that demonstrate this.

Granted, Dr. White is a man who makes mistakes–but I’ve gotten to correspond with him quite a bit over the last few years, and heard almost every one of his debates. And I can say without fear of contradicting myself that he is a fine gentleman that strives to be fair to both sides. Listen to his debate with Tim Staples on Papal Infallibility–Staples breaks the rules left and right and Dr. White handles it like a gentleman. Or in a debate with atheist Dan Barker who started yelling at him, “Shut Up! Shut Up! You’re Wrong! You’re Lying!” James White told him calmly that he would not respond in kind and continued on with his response.

1. This nonsense about special animosity towards the Catholic Church because his sister converted is mind-boggling to me. Dr. White had already written several books about the RCC, and engaged in many many debates against Catholic apologists before Patty Bonds “swam the Tiber.” Let’s keep it above the belt, and also, let’s be logical here. Dr. White’s interest in debating Catholics stems from his Theological perspective and his background in apologetics.
2. Let’s all calm down about the 'ol Jesus and the Apostles didn’t practice sola Scriptura so therefore SS is false argument. This is not a valid argument, and those who understand SS properly don’t use the argument. Why? Did the Apostles or Jesus recognize Papal Infallibility? Using the same logic you undermine your own position. One shouldn’t use arguments that refute your own position.

God bless,
c0ach

1. Whether one believes James White is a gentleman and a fine debater depends on whose ox is being gorged. Clearly, the fact that you agree with him establishes some measure of bias in his favor with you. The opposite could very well be said of Papist detractors on this board. Matters, of pure opinion will never be resolved here. I would say that any denials of Mr. White not being upset with his sister converting to the Whore of Babylon seem naive and without credibility. Of course, your welcome to your opinion.
2. As for slander allegations, Dave Armstrong has endured his share and posts a great variety on his site.

socrates58.blogspot.com/

Jesus and the Apostles didn’t practice sola Scriptura so therefore SS is false

argument. This is not a valid argument, and those who understand SS properly don’t use the argument. Why? Did the Apostles or Jesus recognize Papal Infallibility? Using the same logic you undermine your own position. One shouldn’t use arguments that refute your own position.

So, if we disagree with you in regard to this issue, its simply a matter of our failure to “understand SS properly”? That’s interesting. Also interesting is the fact that the Apostles drafted and prepared scripture but never practiced SS.

“Did the Apostles or Jesus recognize Papal Infallibility?” So, that’s it? That’s all you got? Did the Apostles or Jesus recognize the Book of Morman? Does that answer your question. BTW, I would also submit a substantive yes, to the above in Matthew, when Christ advises the Apostles to do “whatsoever” they {pharisees} tell because they sit on the Chair of Moses.

 

[Scalia]

Tim Prescott:

Yeah but remember Catholic have a far greater organic unity in so many more things then protestants, so even though we have differences we are united in a COMMON WORSHIP, HIERACHY, SACRAMENTS AND LITURGY…The biggest problem in unity in the Catholic Church occured after Vatican II when we adopted protestant thinking and language etc…And that says it all about the errors of Protestantism, it is a disease and most be eradicated from the Catholic Church. The truth that exists in Protestantism only comes from the Catholic Church…FACE IT THERE IS NO HOME LIKE ROME!!!

Poor analogy Coach. The Bike shop, as the retailer, does manufacture or produce the Bikes. Therefore, the retailer gives you only what the manufacturer produces. Here, the Church is the manufacturer because it drafted, prepared and cannonized scripture. Retailers, protestants, take the manufacturers products and use them purposes never intended by the manufacturer.

 

[jusher7281]

CatholicDude:

I’d love to see Dr. White on Catholic Answers Live, but I don’t think I’ll live to see it.

Or see Jimmy Akin on White’s The Dividing Line.

sigh Sometimes all we can do is dream about such things. I actually had a Protestant friend call in to ask Mr. Akin if he would be willing to debate Dr. White, but the operator lady said the question was not “appropriate” for the show, and cut him off. Oh well…

– CatholicDude

CatholicDude,
I’d love to se Mr. White on CA Live also, but that’s not what the show is about. It’s not that he wouldn’t be a good guest, but the whole reason for the show is to explain and defend the Catholic faith, and I’m not sure he’s the right person to do that. I’m sorry your Protestant friend got “cut off,” but that type of question simply had nothing to do with the real purpose of the show (although, I’d bet Mr. Akin has been asked before if he would be willing to debate Mr. White).

 

[timlexky]

I don’t know if “Coach” is still watching this thread or not and I’ll have to admit I have not had or taken the time to read through all the interchanges included here so excuse me if I am covering old ground.

Coach said in an earlier post:

MariaG, I noticed you didn’t respond to what I posted to you last night. Are you able to demonstrate an oral teaching held by the apostles that wasn’t recorded in Scripture.

Where is Scripture is it recorded that community worship would now take place on Sunday rather than Saturday?

Tim

 

[Malachi4U]

James White loves to debate himslef so much he is the greatest self-debater of all time. Of them all, he is truley the biggest, greatest, master debater.

If a Catholic talked to his ‘fictional’ friends as much as James, and won every ‘fictional’ debate, and then bragged and boasted of it, they’d put him in a stray jacket in a padded room.:whacky:

PS, James claims to be a preacher so:

1. Where did he graduate from with his preaching education?
2. Does he have a church he is the preacher of? If so, where is it and how maney people (i.e. ex-Catholics ) attend it?

 

[Matt14]

timlexky:

Where is Scripture is it recorded that community worship would now take place on Sunday rather than Saturday?

It can be ascertained from these scriptures:

Mat 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave.
…
Mat 28:5 The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid; for I know that you are looking for Jesus who has been crucified.
Mat 28:6 "He is not here, for He has risen, just as He said. Come, see the place where He was lying.

Mar 16:9 Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.

Act 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.

1Co 16:2 On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come.

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,

Christ arose on the first day of the week, the disciples came together to break bread (communion) on the first day of the week and received teaching from Paul, they gave of their means on the first day of the week, and John speaks of a “Lord’s day,” which is most likely referring to the day the Lord was resurrection, ie the first day of the week. And since the Law of Moses is no longer binding and Sabbath observance is not required, it is sensible to worship on the first day of the week, the day Christ arose.

 

[Matt14]

Malachi4U:

PS, James claims to be a preacher so:

1. Where did he graduate from with his preaching education?
2. Does he have a church he is the preacher of? If so, where is it and how maney people (i.e. ex-Catholics ) attend it?

Not sure, but he is a professor of apologetics at Columbia Evangelical Seminary, so he must have some formal education.

He is an elder of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

I don’t agree with his theology much (except for his position on sola scriptura), but I respect his passion.