Jamnia

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When is the first mention of the Council of Jamnia by Church Fathers?

I do not intent to discuss this matter, only read responses and visit links.
(I am only interested in specific quotes from early church fathers on Jamnia, not commentaries from modern times)

Thank you for your assistance.
 
I’ll try to answer this as briefly as I can.

AFAIK, there is no mention among any Church Father concerning this council; they never talk about it. In fact, the idea that there was a council in Yavneh was only formulated by German historian Heinrich Graetz in 1871 based on what he thought was clues within the Mishna and the Talmud.
 
When is the first mention of the Council of Jamnia by Church Fathers?

I do not intent to discuss this matter, only read responses and visit links.
(I am only interested in specific quotes from early church fathers on Jamnia, not commentaries from modern times)

Thank you for your assistance.
I think that Jamnia was not so much an incident named after a place as a locus for a hive of Jewish revivalism, out of which came what we refer to as the “Palestinian Canon” of the OT.
 
St. Justin Martyr in his DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO, A JEW, written around 100 AD, says that already the Rabbis were doctoring the text of the OT to get rid of Messianic references (which are clearer in the LXX).

The time of its composition corresponds with the Rabbinical Synod of Jamnia.
 
St. Justin Martyr in his DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO, A JEW, written around 100 AD, says that already the Rabbis were doctoring the text of the OT to get rid of Messianic references (which are clearer in the LXX).

The time of its composition corresponds with the Rabbinical Synod of Jamnia.
I think you made a good catch here, as despite all the hypotheses, one thing was certain: because the minim (“heretics”) focused strongly on apocalyptic and messianic literature, and because such texts might inspire further messianic claimants and bring more trouble to the Jewish people, the Jewish community at Palestine began to pay less attention and even reject those works, along with minimizing messianic hopes for the nation around the time of the hypothetical Council. Some think that the failure of Simon bar-Kokhba’s revolt (132-135 AD) was the final straw for the rabbis to finally leave such works out of the canon. All these attitudes could explain Justin’s mention of rabbis “doctoring” the OT.

That’s it for now; I hope I am not a disturbance.
 
St. Justin Martyr in his DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO, A JEW, written around 100 AD, says that already the Rabbis were doctoring the text of the OT to get rid of Messianic references (which are clearer in the LXX).

The time of its composition corresponds with the Rabbinical Synod of Jamnia.
St. Justin Martyr about A.D. 100, converted to Christianity about A.D. 130, martyred about 165. Dialog with Trpho between A.D.133-155
Councils Jamnia A.D. 90 and 118 :

It is a very long document. Can you provide a specific quote, please? Or at least the chapter? Thank you
 
Ginger,
In another Catholic forum one of the moderators evidently tired of always debunking the alleged ‘Council of Jamnia’ and posted a permanent ‘sticky’ dealing with this aspect of the canonical-books issue.
Here is a link to his post. Jamnia

Hope this helps,
Peter
 
Thank you PeterK, I have read the sticky and also been reading information on the Dialog with Trypho.

This is the first time I have heard of Trypho and would still appreciate a specific quote or at least the chapter.

I if you are concerned this thread will turn into a debate, you can relax - it will not be debated by me. I simply want assistance in finding answers and information. I will, however, ask questions to help direct me to the source of the information more quickly. Research is time consuming and rather than read hundreds of documents, I would like to be taken directly to the comments of interest.

Again, Can anyone provide a specific quote or at least the chapter where Trypho states the Jews are removing books and passages from the Scriptures? Thank you.
 
Ginger2,

Here:

Chapter 71. The Jews reject the interpretation of the Septuagint, from which, moreover, they have taken away some passages
Code:
Justin: But I am far from putting reliance in your teachers, who refuse to admit that the interpretation made by the seventy elders who were withPtolemy [king] of the Egyptians is a correct one; and they attempt to frame another. And I wish you to observe, that they have altogether taken away many Scriptures from the translations effected by those seventy elders who were with Ptolemy, and by which this very man who was crucified is proved to have been set forth expressly as God, and man, and as being crucified, and as dying; but since I am aware that this is denied by all of your nation, I do not address myself to these points, but Iproceed to carry on my discussions by means of those passages which are still admitted by you. For you assent to those which I have brought before your attention, except that you contradict the statement, 'Behold, thevirgin shall conceive,' and say it ought to be read, 'Behold, the young woman shall conceive.' And I promised to prove that the prophecy referred, not, as you were taught, to Hezekiah, but to this Christ of mine: and now I shall go to the proof.

Trypho: We ask you first of all to tell us some of the Scriptures which you allege have been completely cancelled.
Chapter 72. Passages have been removed by the Jews from Esdras and Jeremiah
Code:
Justin: I shall do as you please. From the statements, then, which Esdras made in reference to the law of the passover, they have taken away the following: 'And Esdras said to the people, This passover is our Saviour and our refuge. And if you have understood, and your heart has taken it in, that we shall humble Him on a standard, and thereafter hope in Him, then this place shall not be forsaken for ever, says the God of hosts. But if you will not believe Him, and will not listen to His declaration, you shall be a laughing-stock to the nations.' And from the sayings of Jeremiah they have cut out the following: 'I [was] like a lamb that is brought to the slaughter: they devised a device against me, saying, Come, let us lay on wood on His bread, and let us blot Him out from the land of the living; and His name shall no more be remembered.' Jeremiah 11:19 And since this passage from the sayings of Jeremiah is still written in some copies [of the Scriptures] in the synagogues of the Jews (for it is only a short time since they were cut out), and since from these words it is demonstrated that the Jews deliberated about the Christ Himself, to crucify and put Him to death, He Himself is both declared to be led as a sheep to the slaughter, as was predicted by Isaiah, and is here represented as a harmless lamb; but being in a difficulty about them, they give themselves over to blasphemy. And again, from the sayings of the same Jeremiah these have been cut out: 'The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation.'

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01286.htm
 
Oops, where does Trypho admit Jews removed the books? This says Justin accused them and Trypho denies it and demands Justin prove his accusations?

Does Trypho eventually admit Jews removed and altered Scriptures? Or have I misunderstood?
 
Thanks for the assistance. I see the document provides an early church father accusing Jews of altering Scriptures, and not of Trypho admitting it. 🙂

This is very helpful and I will read through the document and compare claims to actual texts.

Thanks again.
 
Oops, where does Trypho admit Jews removed the books? This says Justin accused them and Trypho denies it and demands Justin prove his accusations?

Does Trypho eventually admit Jews removed and altered Scriptures? Or have I misunderstood?
The closest he gets is with this quote:

“Whether[or not] the rulers of the people have erased any portion of the Scriptures, as you affirm, God knows; but it seems incredible.”
 
Can you tell me which chapter & verses of Jeremiah these words are found: "I[was] like a lamb that is brought to the slaughter: they devised a device against me, saying, Come, let us lay on wood on His bread, and let us blot Him out from the land of the living; and His name shall no more be remembered:

I want to compare the three texts.
 
I am a bit confused. I have been searching to compare texts with references in Justin Martyr’s DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO, but unable to find the cited text.

I found this in the New Advent:
On the other hand one finds in Justin some apocryphal texts: pseudo-Esdras (Dialogue with Trypho 72), pseudo-Jeremias (ibid.), Psalm 96:10 (Dialogue with Trypho 72; I Apol., xli);

**Is this why I can’t find the text? Because Justin was citing pseudo texts? **
 
I am a bit confused. I have been searching to compare texts with references in Justin Martyr’s DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO, but unable to find the cited text.

I found this in the New Advent:
On the other hand one finds in Justin some apocryphal texts: pseudo-Esdras (Dialogue with Trypho 72), pseudo-Jeremias (ibid.), Psalm 96:10 (Dialogue with Trypho 72; I Apol., xli);

**Is this why I can’t find the text? Because Justin was citing pseudo texts? **
From New Advent:

"The books that we never find in his works are Judges, Esdras (except one passage which is attributed to him by mistake—Dialogue with Trypho 72) "

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08580c.htm
 
Again, Can anyone provide a specific quote or at least the chapter where Trypho states the Jews are removing books and passages from the Scriptures? Thank you.

Trypho doesn’t say this. St. Justin says this.
 
St. Justin Martyr in his DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO, A JEW, written around 100 AD, says that already the Rabbis were doctoring the text of the OT to get rid of Messianic references (which are clearer in the LXX).

The time of its composition corresponds with the Rabbinical Synod of Jamnia.
I read Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho years ago. I just re-read the pertinent parts. I was not impressed then. I am not impressed now.

In the dialogue, when Trypho asks Justin Martyr for examples, Justin Martyr gives the following…

Justin Martyr says that these words, which he says are from the LXX, were eliminated in the Masoretic text of Ezra (Esdras): “'And Esdras said to the people, This passover is our Saviour and our refuge. And if you have understood, and your heart has taken it in, that we shall humble Him on a standard, and thereafter hope in Him, then this place shall not be forsaken for ever, says the God of hosts. But if you will not believe Him, and will not listen to His declaration, you shall be a laughing-stock to the nations.’” The LXX had both a Book of Ezra, and a different book 1 Esdras. I concordized both versions, and despite Justin Martyr’s accusation the verse which he says was eliminated by Jews does not seem to have ever been in the LXX. Justin Martyr may have been referring to an apocryphal version of Ezra/Esdras which the Magisterium also threw out!

JM says that these words, which he says are from the LXX, were eliminated in the Masoretic text of Jeremiah: "‘I**[was] like a lamb that is brought to the slaughter: they devised a device against me, saying, Come, let us lay on wood on His bread, and let us blot Him out from the land of the living; and His name shall no more be remembered**.’ " I checked the oldest known complete Masoretic text, and they are still there. They’re translated slightly differently, but our English translation of Jerome’s Vulgate translation of the Greek LXX is a little bit different, too. What, if anything, is being mistranslated. Is the LXX Greek translation of Baruch’s rendition of Jeremiah’s Hebrew at fault? I JM’s memory wrong. Is our translation of JM’s Greek wrong? JM doesn’t even talk about mistranslation. He says that the words were eliminated.

JM says that these words, which he says are from the LXX, were eliminated in the Masoretic text of Jeremiah: “‘The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation.’

Interestingly, Irenaeus attributes the exact same words to Jeremiah, to Isaiah, and to “others” in “Against Heresy.”

But the words don’t appear to be in Jerome’s Vulgate rendition of the Greek LXX.

Once again, JM is mysteriously unverifiable. Question: Is JM possibly talking about a separate apocryphal work, now lost, called, “The sayings of Jeremiah,” which might have been in an Appendix of the LXX?

JM says that this change was made in Psalm 96: “‘Tell ye among the nations, the Lord hath reigned from the wood,’ they have left, 'Tell ye among the nations, the Lord hath reigned.’” Well, JM is wrong, here. The reference to “wood,” meaning “the forest” or “the trees,” was retained, but moved to a different part of the sentence.

Here’s the kicker: Jerome’s Latin Vulgate rendition of the Greek LXX agrees with the writers of the Masoretic text, and not JM.

On the subject of translation, I vote for Jerome.

So, every example cited by JM somehow fails.

In light of the scandal which tampering with God’s Holy Word would have caused among Jews during the revival after Titus, I side with the Jews, and against Justin Martyr, on the issues raised by him.

No “Synod of Jamnia” ever occurred, as far as anyone knows.
 
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