Japan Earthquake - Tsunamis - Does God play a part in this?

[Lost_Wanderer]

Is there any particular reason why in shaping His earth, God should NOT have allowed all kinds of natural forces to occur even before people walked His earth? Does the earth and all that lives and exists on it belong to God or to science?

When you’ve managed to create your own universe, or even just your own planet and created your own sentient species purely out of nothing to put it on, only then should your put yourself up as someone who would know God’s intentions when creating this planet.

You see, science operates in the context of God, not God in the context of science… People so often see God and science as mutually exclusive, yet in reality science IS nothing less than the hand of God at work…

Are you aware that you are actually binding God to the limitations of natural processes described in science? That’s not exactly flattering of Him, don’t you think?

Earthquakes are in fact a necessary part in the earth’s process of recycling itself. Like any natural cycle, it is imperative. In other words, it just happens. The only place I see God’s hand in it was when He first created our world and only He knows (knowing more than we shall ever) why it had to be that way.

Do you believe St Jean Marie Baptiste (John) Vianney (see above quote in Shin’s post) was wrong?

If masturbation brings about hail storms and volcanoes then every guy I know at the local hobby shop is a wizard. Unfortunately, their spells don’t seem to be as effective as the saint claims.

Going up against St John Vianney is quite brave (foolhardy?) - do you know much about him and how he lived, and his relationship with our Lord? If so, do you really think he is wrong in his statement?

Actually, if I had more training in escrima or maybe even ninjutsu, I would challenge St. Joan herself to a duel. Saints may be good role-models but they’re still human. Hence, along the same line, I too wouldn’t be shy in challenging St. Vianney to a debate. I mean, reading one biography of his (that was geared for children I admit but still rather lengthy) did not exactly speak well of his academic performance. If these words of his being quoted here are even any further indication, I would definitely take any man up on such claims, saint or no saint.

 

[Patrick_Cox]

When you’ve managed to create your own universe, or even just your own planet and created your own sentient species purely out of nothing to put it on, only then should your put yourself up as someone who would know God’s intentions when creating this planet.

I think you have got me wrong. I certainly don’t make any claim whatsoever to KNOW God’s intentions. I am merely putting forward my support of the supposition that God MAY indeed use his own natural creation in certain ways to influence us as human beings.

Are you aware that you are actually binding God to the limitations of natural processes described in science? That’s not exactly flattering of Him, don’t you think?

Here you definitely have read me wrong. I have said that God is entirely in control of His creation. I have said that science is subservient to God, not God subservient to science. God can do anything surely? If God wills it, it will happen. Who are we to say that God does not control the very earth he created? Did He not calm the storm when the disciples cried out to him in their distress?

Earthquakes are in fact a necessary part in the earth’s process of recycling itself. Like any natural cycle, it is imperative. In other words, it just happens. The only place I see God’s hand in it was when He first created our world and only He knows (knowing more than we shall ever) why it had to be that way.

Did Sodom and Gomorrah “just happen”?
Yes, just like fires and floods - destructive yet necessary. But none of this diminishes the power of prayer. As I mentioned before, if everything “just happened”, then why bother praying? Surely prayer would have no power then? Do you draw limits or boundaries in respect of what prayer can achieve? If so, then I dare say it is you that is binding God to limitations are you not?

If masturbation brings about hail storms and volcanoes then every guy I know at the local hobby shop is a wizard. Unfortunately, their spells don’t seem to be as effective as the saint claims.

Actually, if I had more training in escrima or maybe even ninjutsu, I would challenge St. Joan herself to a duel. Saints may be good role-models but they’re still human. Hence, along the same line, I too wouldn’t be shy in challenging St. Vianney to a debate. I mean, reading one biography of his (that was geared for children I admit but still rather lengthy) did not exactly speak well of his academic performance. If these words of his being quoted here are even any further indication, I would definitely take any man up on such claims, saint or no saint.

I don’t think sainthood is really determined on the basis of academic performance, do you? Having personally prayed to God in front of St John Vianney’s incorrupt body and stood a couple of metres away from the bed where the devil physically attacked him so many times (due to his incredible faith), and having studied further details of his life, I feel fairly comfortable backing St John on this one.

Never ever underestimate the power of prayer and faith - it can and does impact on everything we do.

 

[Ashton_Gaskill]

God is in charge of science.

God made our world the way He did for a reason.

I think God does in fact use natural occurrences to affect humans (anyone who has gone on a kind of spiritual walk and felt Him on the wind would probably back me up on that).

As for why or how he is using a specific natural occurrence to affect humans, a wiser man than I would be needed to answer. I’m sure there’s some reason He didn’t make the Ring of Fire suddenly stop being what it is when humans started living there.

I think God’s hand is very greatly still at work in our world today, I just think it is more subtle than most people realize. It’s not about the one big fire storm that makes everyone repent, it’s about a series of events that He uses to try and bring us back to Him.

 

[puzzleannie]

John Vianney is a saint, and God’s prophets wrote the account of Sodom and Gommorah. Nobody here has those credentials to speak as to God’s motives and actions.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I think you have got me wrong. I certainly don’t make any claim whatsoever to KNOW God’s intentions. I am merely putting forward my support of the supposition that God MAY indeed use his own natural creation in certain ways to influence us as human beings.

In other words, you believe God is an uninvited interventionist just like Zeus, Horus, Odin, Amaterasu, the Jade Emperor, Bathala, Shiva etc.

Here you definitely have read me wrong. I have said that God is entirely in control of His creation. I have said that science is subservient to God, not God subservient to science. God can do anything surely? If God wills it, it will happen. Who are we to say that God does not control the very earth he created? Did He not calm the storm when the disciples cried out to him in their distress?

If God can bend the laws of reality as willingly as you describe then He’s due for a lot of classic atheist suits such as why He doesn’t use His power to relieve human suffering, His lack of intervention etc.

And yet, here come apologists who say that such things are not God’s fault and that in turn, they dismiss the notion of God being an interventionist (an idea which you obviously hold dear).

Besides, you’ve no idea how I wished God would turn this world into a medieval fantasy. How many times do you think that prayer has gone unanswered?

Just because God can control this world, doesn’t mean He will. You are not God and you have no right to presume any natural disaster (such as this earthquake) is of His doing. What some people think as a praise to God for this disaster is actually a criminal charge against Him by others. It’s like the Muslim fanatics who praised 9/11 when in fact the terrorists responsible were obviously murderers.

Did Sodom and Gomorrah “just happen”?

You can’t even find proof of the Egyptians enslaving the Jews outside of the Bible.
You can’t even find proof of Noah’s Ark.
You can’t even find proof of two monsters called Leviathan and Behemoth.

So yeah, for all you know that story was purely allegorical (along with a grand chunk of the OT). Good evidence? I don’t think so.

Yes, just like fires and floods - destructive yet necessary. But none of this diminishes the power of prayer. As I mentioned before, if everything “just happened”, then why bother praying?

You’re mixing natural events with all events. Natural events are not so well within man’s capacity to control (they can be predicted though). On the other hand, events such as wars, murders, robberies, and conflicts could all be brought about and prevented by man. Be the prevention brought about by prayer, good works, or an even more powerful combination of both, it all shows that not everything is beyond man’s control. For proof, I offer nothing more than simple reality. I cannot prevent a natural disaster from destroying my property but I can save money in cases of such emergency, I can take insurance, I can purchase a replacement etc.

Do you draw limits or boundaries in respect of what prayer can achieve? If so, then I dare say it is you that is binding God to limitations are you not?

Is that a crime? And no, God is not some genie you could call upon at your petty, religious mortal whim. That in fact is binding God to limitations. Prayer is nothing but a petition, a plea. We can never tell how a being such as God, whose wisdom is beyond man’s, should take to it.

I don’t think sainthood is really determined on the basis of academic performance, do you?

Yet academic performance is a basis when someone makes claims. Ever wondered why even non-Catholic philosophers look to St. Aquinas and not St. Vianney? That tells me how effective and powerful the influence of an academic mind is. Blind, anti-intellectual obedience has done nothing but scourge our religion (or any religion for that matter) with fanatics, bigots, and zealots.

Besides, I’m no straight-A student. Maybe I would be on a level higher than St. Vianney’s but in any case, he is still human and so am I. We are both more or less equal. Thus, so long as that equality exists, I will not be afraid to challenge anyone on anything as I see fit.

Having personally prayed to God in front of St John Vianney’s incorrupt body and stood a couple of metres away from the bed where the devil physically attacked him so many times (due to his incredible faith), and having studied further details of his life, I feel fairly comfortable backing St John on this one.

So? What relevance does this all have with the claim that sin brings about natural disasters?

I ask you again, if sins such as pornography bring about hailstorms, why is it always so bright and sunny outside my local hobby shop?

 

[RosalieM]

I don’t know why these things happen and why God doesn’t stop these things from happening. Maybe it’s because we’re not in heaven here. Maybe it was time for some people to leave the earth and this was the way for it to happen for them. We can’t know the mind of God yet we keep trying to understand these things.
I don’t know that St. Vianney was speaking in the context of all the great disasters; but also about how we separate ourselves from God by sinning and in doing so, become closer to our own ruin. Certainly there is biblical reference to the wrath of God and the divine insight of this great saint.
I don’t know what to think about this disaster. I do know that we must pray for the people of Japan, for the survivors and for those who perished.

 

[white_sheep]

I feel compelled to write this in response to those proclaiming the earthquake in Japan as well as other “natural” disasters as God’s judgement on sin. I ask that you study scripture and our New Covenant with God through Jesus Christ to back these things up. Please open your heart, wipe out “tradition” and let the Holy Spirit Himself, operating from a position of Love guide your heart in these things.

First, I would like us to take a really good look at the New Covenant that God has made with mankind through Jesus Christ’s shed blood for ALL of mankind. Jesus forever changed the way God relates to us. Sure, there are scriptural examples of God’s catastrophic judgment on sin in the Old Covenant (Testament). But God’s greatest act of judgment was when He placed ALL of His wrath for our sins upon Jesus. This forever satisfied God’s wrath. Since that time, God hasn’t been judging our sins but is now in the business of reconciliation. ( 2 Cor. 5:19)

There is a “day of judgment” coming at the end of the age and His wrath is reserved for that time. (Matt 10:15, 11:22, 11:24, 12:36, Mark 6:22, 2Pet. 2:9, 3:7, 1John 4:17, Jude 1:6, 1:14-15) We also see reference to the Judgment Seat of Christ (Rom 14:10, 2Cor. 5:10) and, of course, all the end of the age references to the judgments of Revelation.

Jesus Himself said He was not sent to bring peace on the earth among people. The peace that the angels of Luke 2:13-14 were praising God for was peace BETWEEN God and man. They were announcing the end of God’s war on sin. Peace now reigns between God and man.

Prior to Jesus’ coming, there was wrath from God against mankind for his sins. It wasn’t total wrath. Even in the Old Testament, we see God’s mercy and grace. Yet the Old Testament Law was a ministry of wrath (Rom. 4:15 with 2 Cor. 3:7 and 9), and people’s sins were held against them. But when Jesus came, God quit holding people’s sins against them. In John 12:47 He says “And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

Rom 2:4 says “the GOODNESS of God leads you to repentance”. Its the goodness and the love of God that brings one to the place of wanting a true relationship with Him, not the fear of judgment or hell. As far as God’s correction to believers, 2Timothy 3:16 says that “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Cor. 5:19 (AMP) “It was God [personally present] in Christ, reconciling and restoring the world to favor with Himself, not counting up and holding against [men] their trespasses [but cancelling them], and committing to us the message of reconciliation (of the restoration to favor).”

The word “reconciliation” is talking about making peace. God was no longer holding us accountable. Instead, He imputed our sins to Jesus, making Jesus accountable for our sins. Jesus became what we were so we could become what He was—the righteousness of God. Jesus was like a lightning rod that drew all the judgment of God unto Himself. He not only bore our sins; He actually became sin (2 Cor. 5:21 KJV) For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

God the Father forsook Jesus so you and I would never be forsaken. All that you and I would have suffered, through billions of years in eternity—the grief, the pain and, worst of all, the complete separation from the presence of God—Jesus experienced. And He experienced all of this for us. When we say God is judging our sins as individuals or corporately as a nation, we are voiding what Jesus did. That would be “double jeopardy.” I personally believe this doctrine to be an offense to the Cross of Christ.

We live in a corrupted world where bad things happen, but God isn’t the cause of them. If He were, why would He stop at New Orleans or Haiti or Japan? Natural disasters are just that. NATURAL. Don’t forget that natural disasters also occur on a regular basis in places of the world were there are no people. Surely all of us deserve the judgment of God. But, praise God, don’t get what we deserve because Jesus took it ALL on the Cross. It is FINISHED!

I’m sure you’ve all heard the saying and I’ve even said it myself in the past, “If God doesn’t judge America, He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.” Now I say, “If God judges America, He will have to apologize to Jesus.”

I didn’t read past the first few sentences. Divining and sorcery and necromancy and any other kind of voodoo that yoo doo is just not for me. Thanks!

 

[jegow]

‘In fact, my children, it is sin that brings upon us all calamities, all scourges, war, famine, pestilence, earthquakes, fires, frost, hail, storms, – all that afflicts us, all that makes us miserable.’

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars

Exactly what I was thinking. Good quote!

Yeah, once original sin entered the universe it threw everything off. The order that all things had been created in was lost.

Even though Christ has come to redeem us, we still suffer the effects of sin. We do not have infused knowledge, we get sick, we die. The same is for the planet; the animals are not all subordinate to us, natural disasters occur, terrorists fly planes into things, there is war, pollution, etc. Even after Christ did what he did the planet still suffers from the effects of ‘the fall’ of Adam and Eve. They are not originating from God’s hands but he permits them to happen. In many ways like how He sustains the existence of people like us, while striving to do better, are sinners. Sometimes, even though they be tragic, things happen because they happen; they happen because it is not God’s prerogative to stop or prevent them all the time, it is his prerogative that we accept and live the life that is necessary for us to have eternal life with him. Just as he did not remove the effects of original sin from us, neither did he remove them from the planet. Of course we have to witness and watch the disaster caused by the disorder that effects us and the world we live in.

May the thousands who have lost their lives or the lives of their loved ones and the recovery of Japan be in our prayers.

 

[Patrick_Cox]

In other words, you believe God is an uninvited interventionist just like Zeus, Horus, Odin, Amaterasu, the Jade Emperor, Bathala, Shiva etc.

I don’t claim any knowledge of the historical/mythological figures you mention.
Do I believe God intervenes in our lives? Most definitely, yes, I do! But NOT to the extent that He takes away from us our free will and our choice to live the lives we choose to live, and importantly, to bear the consequences of the decisions we make, either in this life, or in the next. We are still entirely responsible for our own actions, yet there are occasions when I believe God will subtly direct us, point us in certain directions, warn us of the dangers of our chosen path.

Do I believe there are limits to the potential means for God to intervene? No - I believe God can intervene by any means He deems appropriate.There are no limits to what God can do. Do I believe God is a malevolent God who plays games and throws out natural disasters at a whim? Do I believe God is playing us like some kind of massive puppet show? NO, of course not! However, as Jegow says in his previous post: “God permits things to happen.”

Just because God can control this world, doesn’t mean He will.

Agreed. He allows us to control our own destiny - free will. But on occasion He steps in. On occasion He permits that which seems only to bring hurt, horror and heartache. Why? Only God can answer that. God sees a bigger picture which we, in our infinitely limited human understanding, never can see…

You are not God and you have no right to presume any natural disaster (such as this earthquake) is of His doing. What some people think as a praise to God for this disaster is actually a criminal charge against Him by others. It’s like the Muslim fanatics who praised 9/11 when in fact the terrorists responsible were obviously murderers.

I ask you this very simple question - do you believe God has the power to STOP any natural disaster?

(And let me immediately stress to you very strongly that I am in NO WAY praising God (in the context in which you use the phrase here) for that which causes devastation and pain to so many!)

You’re mixing natural events with all events. Natural events are not so well within man’s capacity to control (they can be predicted though). On the other hand, events such as wars, murders, robberies, and conflicts could all be brought about and prevented by man. Be the prevention brought about by prayer, good works, or an even more powerful combination of both, it all shows that not everything is beyond man’s control. For proof, I offer nothing more than simple reality. I cannot prevent a natural disaster from destroying my property but I can save money in cases of such emergency, I can take insurance, I can purchase a replacement etc.

I believe you underestimate the power of prayer, faith and good works to influence even the outcome or occurence of natural disasters, and not just man-made disasters. Yes, I genuinely believe prayer, along with the decisions we make in our lives actually DOES have that much power! We might not necessarily prevent them from happening, but we might have an effect on the impact they have…

Is that a crime? And no, God is not some genie you could call upon at your petty, religious mortal whim. That in fact is binding God to limitations. Prayer is nothing but a petition, a plea. We can never tell how a being such as God, whose wisdom is beyond man’s, should take to it.

I bind God to NO limitations - pure and simple.

Yet academic performance is a basis when someone makes claims. Ever wondered why even non-Catholic philosophers look to St. Aquinas and not St. Vianney? That tells me how effective and powerful the influence of an academic mind is.

When it comes to matters of our One True Catholic faith, I take relatively little cognisance of the views of non-Catholic philosophers. In no way do I believe that the truth of God is revealed to academics any more than it is revealed to those with simple, humble faith. Do you believe that the likes of St Bernadette, St Therese of Lisieux, St John Vianney to name but 3 are in some way less influential when it comes to the truth of the teachings of our Catholic faith? The fact that St Aquinas might have written more about the faith than did St John Vianney, and hence quite logically is studied more by other academics, in no way undermines the accuracy of those with less academic education who have written less. You tread an extremely dangerous path if you judge efficacy by academic qualification alone.
But we venture off topic here…

Blind, anti-intellectual obedience has done nothing but scourge our religion (or any religion for that matter) with fanatics, bigots, and zealots.

Again, this is another topic completely, much though I would LOVE to discuss this…

I ask you again, if sins such as pornography bring about hailstorms, why is it always so bright and sunny outside my local hobby shop?

Did I say pornography brings about hailstorms? May I suggest you spend less time at your local hobby shop…

 

[ActuallyAquinas]

The epicenter of the earthquake that caused a deadly March 11 tsunami is located near the site of an apparition in which Mary warned about a worldwide disaster that could afflict humanity.

Japanese church officials have confirmed that the Diocese of Sendai, in the north of the country, was hit hardest by the 8.8 magnitude earthquake – the worst in Japanese history – and the resulting 23-foot waves.

Hundreds of people have already been confirmed dead in the city of Sendai, located less than 90 miles away from the apparition site of Our Lady of Akita in the town of Yuzawa.

The city of Akita, which experienced fire damage and flooding along with many parts of northern Japan, is a place of veneration for Catholics.

In 1973, the Virgin Mary was said to have predicted a number of future events – including natural disasters even more serious than Friday’s earthquake and tsunami – during three appearances to a Japanese religious sister, Sr. Agnes Sasagawa.

The purported appearances of the Virgin Mary in Japan were reviewed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in 1988. During his time as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith prior to his election as Pope Benedict XVI, he let stand the local bishop’s judgment that the apparitions and the messages were acceptable for the faithful.

The messages warned of chaos within the Church, and disasters which could afflict the world.

“If men do not repent and better themselves, God the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity,” Mary reportedly told Sr. Agnes. “It will be a punishment greater than the (biblical) flood, such as never seen before.”

“Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful,” she said. “The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church, in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops.”

“Churches and altars will be sacked. The Church will be full of those who accept compromises, and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord.”

“Each day, recite the prayers of the Rosary,” she told Sr. Agnes. “With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and priests.”

Two years after the last message, the statue of the Virgin Mary in the chapel where the apparitions had occurred began to emit tears and drops of blood. The occurrence continued for more than six years.

Reports from Akita following Friday’s earthquake indicate that the city received significantly less damage than other parts of northern Japan, despite its proximity to the epicenter. However, residents did report power outages, burst pipes, and fires.

Bishop Tarcisio Isao Kikuchi of Niigata, whose territory includes the Akita apparition site, is also the president of Caritas Japan, which will be working to assist victims of the earthquake and tsunami. The relief organization is accepting contributions to its emergency fund at www.caritas.org.

catholicnewsagency.com/news/japanese-quakes-epicenter-located-near-marian-apparition-site/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+catholicnewsagency/dailynews+(CNA+Daily+News

 

[buffalo]

I submit that the quantum effects of prayer can affect these events.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

We are still entirely responsible for our own actions, yet there are occasions when I believe God will subtly direct us, point us in certain directions, warn us of the dangers of our chosen path.

You don’t seem to realize just how much you are shooting yourself in the foot. You can’t believe in a God who intervenes wantonly and a God who simply influences people. An influential person is hardly an interventionist. It’s like saying the Pope is no more an interventionist than George Bush.

NO, of course not! However, as Jegow says in his previous post: “God permits things to happen.”

A God that allows things to happen is not an interventionist. Standing by and letting your creation make their own decisions and doing what’s most with the situations cast upon them is actually the opposite of what an interventionist does.

I ask you this very simple question - do you believe God has the power to STOP any natural disaster?

I repeat: Just because he can, does not mean he WILL.

I believe you underestimate the power of prayer, faith and good works to influence even the outcome or occurence of natural disasters, and not just man-made disasters.

So prayer is magic now? I thought this was real life, not some DnD campaign.

When it comes to matters of our One True Catholic faith, I take relatively little cognisance of the views of non-Catholic philosophers. In no way do I believe that the truth of God is revealed to academics any more than it is revealed to those with simple, humble faith.

Yet standards for judging claims as outrageous as immoral actions being the cause of natural disasters demands an academic criticism and hence, if you want to defend against such criticisms, you must do it with credible sources.

You tread an extremely dangerous path if you judge efficacy by academic qualification alone.

If we’re talking natural disasters, the subject of which is mostly exclusive to the disciplines of Environmental Science, then you cannot judge things by any other. You seem to have this bigoted caricature that I’m some science-savvy skeptic. I hardly like studying science so that’s your mental picture out the window.

I simply put things in their place. I wouldn’t use religion to determine the cause of natural disasters any more than I would use science to determine the morality of having a harem.

Did I say pornography brings about hailstorms?

You defend the quote of a saint that implies sin calls forth natural disasters. It’s preposterous notion to anyone with a basic understanding of how our natural world works (and that covers plenty of people from all academic disciplines, from scientists and politicians to writers and theologians.)

May I suggest you spend less time at your local hobby shop…

Life is filled with both trash and treasure. Places like my hobby shop are just one example of that reality. It’s full of unsavory individuals but at the same time has a neat collection of toys and the only place in town where I can play TCGs and have Ad-hoc PSP sessions.

Unfortunately, such games are the only places where they willingly call forth natural disasters. I have yet to see fire rain down the joint when all the folks there are suddenly clamoring around one guy’s laptop watching garbage.

 

[Patrick_Cox]

You don’t seem to realize just how much you are shooting yourself in the foot. You can’t believe in a God who intervenes wantonly and a God who simply influences people. An influential person is hardly an interventionist.

A God that allows things to happen is not an interventionist.

I think we are debating slightly past each other… I think you are seeing two clear categories - “intervenes wantonly” vs “allows things to happen” (Please correct me if I am wrong…) At no point have I argued that God intervenes wantonly. I argue that God permits, perhaps sometimes sends, at times may subtly intervene. I do see that as very different from claiming “intervenes wantonly” - which I am NOT claiming.

I repeat: Just because he can, does not mean he WILL.

We agree on this 100%. Often he will let us bear the consequences of our choices and actions. On occasion though, he might (not “will”) step in.

So prayer is magic now? I thought this was real life, not some DnD campaign.

Again I say to you - don’t underestimate the power of prayer to move and influence God. Don’t limit it.

You seem to have this bigoted caricature that I’m some science-savvy skeptic. I hardly like studying science so that’s your mental picture out the window.

Not sure why you would think this. Actually I have enjoyed having this discussion with you and appreciate your replies. Had I thought of you as some “bigoted caricature” I wouldn’t have bothered to engage with you in what to me is an interesting discussion topic.

You defend the quote of a saint that implies sin calls forth natural disasters. It’s preposterous notion to anyone with a basic understanding of how our natural world works (and that covers plenty of people from all academic disciplines, from scientists and politicians to writers and theologians.)

Indeed I do defend St John Vianney’s quote - and I give you another:

‘Let us imagine our confusion when we appear before God and understand the reasons why He sent us the crosses we accept so unwillingly. The death of a child will then be seen as its rescue from some great evil had it lived, separation from the woman you love the means of saving you from an unhappy marriage, a severe illness the reason for many years of life afterwards, loss of money the means of saving your soul from eternal loss. So what are we worried about? God is looking after us and yet we are full of anxiety! We trust ourselves to a doctor because we suppose he knows his business. He orders an operation which involves cutting away part of our body and we accept it. We are grateful to him and pay him a large fee because we judge he would not act as he does unless the remedy were necessary, and we must rely on his skill. Yet we are unwilling to treat God in the same way! It looks as if we do not trust His wisdom and are afraid He cannot do His job properly. We allow ourselves to be operated on by a man who may easily make a mistake – a mistake which may cost us our life – and protest when God sets to work on us.’
St. Claude de la Colombiere

From the quote above: “God sends us crosses” and “God sets to work on us”. One could also phrase it “God permits crosses”, but St Claude states it more strongly than this.
He sends crosses to us as individuals and crosses to the world as a whole… Why? Because he is working on us in ways we can not properly understand… As limited human beings we just so often fail to understand how certain crosses can possibly be for our own good… Yet most certainly they are… Perhaps even the earthquake and tsunami in Japan…

I also think ActuallyAquinas’s post regarding Akita is a fantastic example of conveying how God (in this case through the intervention of our beloved Holy Mother) might intervene in our lives…

The power of prayer, faith and good works…

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I think we are debating slightly past each other… I think you are seeing two clear categories - “intervenes wantonly” vs “allows things to happen” (Please correct me if I am wrong…) At no point have I argued that God intervenes wantonly. I argue that God permits, perhaps sometimes sends, at times may subtly intervene. I do see that as very different from claiming “intervenes wantonly” - which I am NOT claiming.

A God who intervenes wantonly is in fact a God who intervenes uninvited. Such a God is what you will be defending if you insist on backing up St. Vianney’s words.

The difference between a deity who intervenes and a deity who allows is crucial, especially when one debates regarding the problem of evil. If you do not hold this distinction firmly, you will allow people to unjustly call God for accountability regarding earthly misfortunes such as this earthquake. It’s hardly a good stratagem to employ in defense of the Faith.

On occasion though, he might (not “will”) step in.

Again, you are assuming an action on God’s part with regards to the natural world. Hence, you can only believe in either a God who intervenes uninvited or a God who doesn’t. You can’t suck and blow at the same time.

Again I say to you - don’t underestimate the power of prayer to move and influence God. Don’t limit it.

And placing expectations upon prayer is not a limit? As one who has had many expectations placed upon him, I tell you now they are indeed also limits. Expectation is simply a positive, flattering form of limitation.

Not sure why you would think this. Actually I have enjoyed having this discussion with you and appreciate your replies. Had I thought of you as some “bigoted caricature” I wouldn’t have bothered to engage with you in what to me is an interesting discussion topic.

You boldly claim I’m on the dangerous path because I insisted on having St. Vianney’s words academically critiqued. What else would I think?

All I’m calling for is standard for any claim. The saint claims that immoral actions bring forth natural disasters without explanation. I say to you: Prove it. Give me facts. Give me data. Give me information that logically links the two things together and not simply performs the long-committed error of correlation implying causation.

Indeed I do defend St John Vianney’s quote - and I give you another:

‘Let us imagine our confusion when we appear before God and understand the reasons why He sent us the crosses we accept so unwillingly. The death of a child will then be seen as its rescue from some great evil had it lived, separation from the woman you love the means of saving you from an unhappy marriage, a severe illness the reason for many years of life afterwards, loss of money the means of saving your soul from eternal loss. So what are we worried about? God is looking after us and yet we are full of anxiety! We trust ourselves to a doctor because we suppose he knows his business. He orders an operation which involves cutting away part of our body and we accept it. We are grateful to him and pay him a large fee because we judge he would not act as he does unless the remedy were necessary, and we must rely on his skill. Yet we are unwilling to treat God in the same way! It looks as if we do not trust His wisdom and are afraid He cannot do His job properly. We allow ourselves to be operated on by a man who may easily make a mistake – a mistake which may cost us our life – and protest when God sets to work on us.’
St. Claude de la Colombiere

Anyone can read this and see a justification for many medieval heresies: Predestination, fatalism, and even basic sloth. The God presented here is in fact no different from the likes of the pagan gods: an unwanted interventionist who seeks only to supplant man’s will like we’re no more than puppets and chess pieces.

From the quote above: “God sends us crosses” and “God sets to work on us”. One could also phrase it “God permits crosses”, but St Claude states it more strongly than this.
He sends crosses to us as individuals and crosses to the world as a whole… Why? Because he is working on us in ways we can not properly understand… As limited human beings we just so often fail to understand how certain crosses can possibly be for our own good… Yet most certainly they are… Perhaps even the earthquake and tsunami in Japan…

You can pull a great deal many other quotes like this and you will accomplish nothing more than the other. It doesn’t in any way answer the questions: What is the connection? Where are the links? How does one exactly lead to the other? Is it even direct?

In fact, the only closest thing you will get to an accomplishment is an affirmation of every atheist’s reason to despise religion, to despise God. No matter how rose-tinted your specs are when seeing this idea but a meddling God is no more than a tyrant. Even should He exist, He is not to be loved but scorned and rebelled against, for He is nothing but a dictatorial obstacle to human freedom. That is why you will find many apologists to theism, and even Catholicism, who have abandoned this idea. We only shoot ourselves in the foot with it.

 

[Patrick_Cox]

A God who intervenes wantonly is in fact a God who intervenes uninvited. Such a God is what you will be defending if you insist on backing up St. Vianney’s words.

He intervenes “wantonly”?
From the online Free Dictionary:
wan·ton (wntn)
adj.

1. Immoral or unchaste; lewd.

a. Gratuitously cruel; merciless.
b. Marked by unprovoked, gratuitous maliciousness; capricious and unjust: wanton destruction.
3. Unrestrainedly excessive: wanton extravagance; wanton depletion of oil reserves.
4. Luxuriant; overabundant: wanton tresses.
5. Frolicsome; playful.
6. Undisciplined; spoiled.
7. Obsolete Rebellious; refractory.

You believe this is the God St John Vianney is defending (or defining)? This is not the God I believe in…

The difference between a deity who intervenes and a deity who allows is crucial, especially when one debates regarding the problem of evil. If you do not hold this distinction firmly, you will allow people to unjustly call God for accountability regarding earthly misfortunes such as this earthquake. It’s hardly a good stratagem to employ in defense of the Faith.

God is most certainly NOT the cause of evil. Evil is not what we are debating here is it? Evil is very different from the kind of devastation that is caused by earthquakes.

The goal is to try to be able to see God amidst the devastation and understand why He permits these natural disasters. This is what is so difficult for many people to accept or understand. Victims quite understandably might feel abandoned by God. How could He allow such a thing? We can’t answer that. The point is He did allow it, whilst at the same time having the power to stop it should He have chosen to do so.

Again, you are assuming an action on God’s part with regards to the natural world. Hence, you can only believe in either a God who intervenes uninvited or a God who doesn’t. You can’t suck and blow at the same time.

The entire natural world was created by God!
Perhaps I believe in a God who IS INVITED to intervene and doesn’t intervene enough? Every time we pray to God are we not asking God to intervene? Is there some reason why we should believe that God either CAN or WILL only intervene in the human world and not the natural world?

And placing expectations upon prayer is not a limit? As one who has had many expectations placed upon him, I tell you now they are indeed also limits. Expectation is simply a positive, flattering form of limitation.

I place neither limits nor expectations on prayer. When I pray, I pray in hope, not in expectation. No-one should pray with an expectation. We should pray in hope and trust thereafter in God’s wisdom and divine providence.

You boldly claim I’m on the dangerous path because I insisted on having St. Vianney’s words academically critiqued. What else would I think?

No, what I said was: “You tread an extremely dangerous path if you judge efficacy by academic qualification alone.” God’s gifts of understanding, wisdom and knowledge have been imparted to many uneducated persons, as well as educated persons. If you choose to critique St John Vianney’s view because of the content of the view he expressed, you are free to do so. But as a general rule to align understanding of the nature of God purely with academic background is short-sighted. So many of the greatest saints that walked this earth had little to no academic education. Does that honestly make their views less noteworthy or less relevant to us?

Anyone can read this and see a justification for many medieval heresies: Predestination, fatalism, and even basic sloth. The God presented here is in fact no different from the likes of the pagan gods: an unwanted interventionist who seeks only to supplant man’s will like we’re no more than puppets and chess pieces.

Your claims, not mine.

You can pull a great deal many other quotes like this and you will accomplish nothing more than the other. It doesn’t in any way answer the questions: What is the connection? Where are the links? How does one exactly lead to the other? Is it even direct?

I am afraid I am not qualified to give you a scientific explanation for how God operates. It seems you won’t be happy until this is what you get.

In fact, the only closest thing you will get to an accomplishment is an affirmation of every atheist’s reason to despise religion, to despise God. No matter how rose-tinted your specs are when seeing this idea but a meddling God is no more than a tyrant. Even should He exist, He is not to be loved but scorned and rebelled against, for He is nothing but a dictatorial obstacle to human freedom. That is why you will find many apologists to theism, and even Catholicism, who have abandoned this idea. We only shoot ourselves in the foot with it.

So do you think we would draw more people to the Catholic faith by saying that our God is more like an absentee landlord - he leaves us to our own devices and doesn’t interfere with anything here on earth? Because if he intervenes he becomes an obstacle to human freedom? Forgive me, but to me, that is what it sounds like you are saying… you make it sound as if all His intervention (as and when he does choose to intervene) affects us negatively, when in reality nothing could be further from the truth!

Finally, yet another relevant quote for you:
‘I wish that all men could understand the great favor that God grants them when, in His goodness, He sends them suffering, and especially suffering devoid of all consolation; for then the soul, like gold which is purified in the fiery crucible, is cleansed, made beautiful, detached from earthly things, and united to the Sovereign Good, without even being conscious of it.’
St. Paul of the Cross

Is St Paul of the Cross yet another saint who has things wrong???

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

b. Marked by unprovoked, gratuitous maliciousness; capricious and unjust: wanton destruction.
3. Unrestrainedly excessive: wanton extravagance; wanton depletion of oil reserves.
4. Luxuriant; overabundant: wanton tresses.
5. Frolicsome; playful.
6. Undisciplined; spoiled.
7. Obsolete Rebellious; refractory.

You believe this is the God St John Vianney is defending (or defining)? This is not the God I believe in…

Yet you insist on an image of Him being an uninvited interventionist by defending the stance that sin invokes natural disaster in a way I invoke natural disasters in RPGs as a spellcaster.

Read the bold part, hard. I wouldn’t advise in arguing semantics with me as I have studied the subject quite well as part of linguistics course. Clearly, by wanton I meant relentless and one who causes disaster on mere whim (no matter how well-intentioned you insist it is). The God you are inadvertently defending is one who is no different from those mythological despots feared by ancient superstitious pagans.

God is most certainly NOT the cause of evil. Evil is not what we are debating here is it? Evil is very different from the kind of devastation that is caused by earthquakes.

Indeed God is not the source of evil. What we are debating here is your persistent defense of a saint’s words claiming that immoral actions are the cause of natural disasters. Insisting that somehow God has a hand behind such disasters implies an unwanted intervention on His part. Evil has its own consequences that can be quite independent of, and is even irrelevant to, natural disasters. Killing people, for instance, deprives them of their future. However, it does not bring about hailstorms.

The goal is to try to be able to see God amidst the devastation and understand why He permits these natural disasters.

Again, a God who allows is different from a God who intervenes. First off, we cannot, as you say, know the mind of God when He created the system which causes the natural disasters. We can only tell that they are actually necessary for sustaining the planet. We can however, exercise the gifts of intelligence and of technology He gave us to make the most of this system, even manipulate it in our favor. Such exercise though, demands freedom and that is exactly what you will have to sacrifice if you insist on a God who intervenes on a whim (even a benevolent one). Giving up freedom in exchange for security isn’t always a good thing, I’ll tell you that much.

The entire natural world was created by God!
Perhaps I believe in a God who IS INVITED to intervene and doesn’t intervene enough? Every time we pray to God are we not asking God to intervene? Is there some reason why we should believe that God either CAN or WILL only intervene in the human world and not the natural world?

I said it before. Prayer is only a petition. There is no guarantee that God will hear your prayer. In fact, from my experience God has already given His answer to my prayers before I had even asked them. I had only take a second look around me to find the means of getting what I want, what I need. He need not come down Himself heralded by trumpets and angel choirs.

I place neither limits nor expectations on prayer. When I pray, I pray in hope, not in expectation. No-one should pray with an expectation. We should pray in hope and trust thereafter in God’s wisdom and divine providence.

Yet you claim that prayer has some great power that implies a magical result. You believe prayer can avert natural disasters like a druid in a game tames storms. If you ask me, that’s quite an expectation.

If you choose to critique St John Vianney’s view because of the content of the view he expressed, you are free to do so. But as a general rule to align understanding of the nature of God purely with academic background is short-sighted. So many of the greatest saints that walked this earth had little to no academic education. Does that honestly make their views less noteworthy or less relevant to us?

You are confused. What I demand is a criticism of St. Vianney’s words. These words however are words that you defend and I can’t say you’re doing a good job academically holding up the claim that immoral actions call forth natural catastrophes.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Your claims, not mine.

Care to test your faith by having that quote reviewed by atheists? They will rhetorically shred this before your eyes (and you along with it). I’ve run into many atheists both in real life and even more in the filthiest corners of the net. Words like these will only convict them.

Have you read Can a Truly Contemporary Person Not Be An Atheist? by John A.T. Robinson? In it you will find a description of three main attacks of atheism. One of them, describes the attitude exalted by your quote.

Let me quote some passages now:

According to this line of attack religion is a prop, or a sop. It is not merely something incredible and superfluous; it is a dangerous illusion which can prevent men from facing reality and shouldering responsibility.

The call of atheism here is for man to cut the strings, to move out of the shadow of the Father-figure, to cease treating God as a peg, or a refuge, or a compensation for miseries which he should be fighting.

I am afraid I am not qualified to give you a scientific explanation for how God operates. It seems you won’t be happy until this is what you get.

Is there even a scientific basis (or even a basis at all) for what you defend? You’re the one standing up for St. Vianney here. The burden of proof is on you.

So do you think we would draw more people to the Catholic faith by saying that our God is more like an absentee landlord - he leaves us to our own devices and doesn’t interfere with anything here on earth? Because if he intervenes he becomes an obstacle to human freedom? Forgive me, but to me, that is what it sounds like you are saying… you make it sound as if all His intervention (as and when he does choose to intervene) affects us negatively, when in reality nothing could be further from the truth!

What is wrong with that view? I was always under the impression that it was the general idea of the Catechism regarding morality.

You want to know one of the greatest gifts God ever gave Man?

It’s freedom.

It’s the freedom that allows us to live our own lives. It’s the freedom that allows us to think inventively. It is freedom to choose between right and wrong. It’s the freedom that allows us to choose our own destiny.

Is it just me or do you have some subconscious fear of it? There is no test of love greater than that offered by freedom. Love is only true when it is given freely and not by persuasion of divine punishment.

Is St Paul of the Cross yet another saint who has things wrong???

You quote things as if they are flawless. You commit the fallacy of appealing to authority. Have you not realized that?

 

[brandymmiller]

Does anyone here really believe God can not over-ride the natural forces of science - even the giant forces of the earth’s plate tectonics?

Since God created these natural forces, they are His to command. In my personal opinion, God has created these natural forces to ensure that the Earth remains healthy and able to support life. It is not His intention that human beings are harmed by them. Were we to remain in prayer and relationship with Him, we would be given adequate warning to get out of the area before such a disaster happened (Noah’s ark, for example) and lives would be spared. However, since we refuse to talk to Him and listen to Him, He has to respect our free will and can’t warn us ahead of time.

God did try to warn Japan about what was coming more than 30 years ago during the apparitions at Akita, Japan - within 90 miles of the epicenter of the Earthquake, just like He tried to warn the people of Rwanda. It is not God’s desire that men should perish. He does not profit from our death. He desires that we should live, but death happens when we refuse to listen to His warnings.