Jehova Witness/the Kingdom of God

[djd83]

Regardless:

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NWT):

18 Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit. 19 In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had once been disobedient hen the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.

Please explain how this, especially verse 19, could happen if souls cease to exist after death.

Feel free to PM me if you want to debate, too

 

[T_More]

Congratulations and God’s blessings to you many times over for your homecoming!

Thank you, Dorothy! It’s great to be home!

 

[Regardless]

Regardless:

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NWT):

…
Please explain how this, especially verse 19, could happen if souls cease to exist after death.

Feel free to PM me if you want to debate, too

A very good question! I will get onto it asap.

Infact I might do a post that will try to answer a couple of these queries at once.

Thanks, and sorry about delays in answering.

 

[T_More]

Regardless:

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NWT):

18 Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit. 19 In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had once been disobedient hen the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.

Please explain how this, especially verse 19, could happen if souls cease to exist after death.

Feel free to PM me if you want to debate, too

Hi djd! Let’s not forget in the very next chapter:

From the New World Translation

5 But these people will render an account to the one ready to judge those living and those dead. 6 In fact, for this purpose the good news was declared also to the dead, that they might be judged as to the flesh from the standpoint of men but might live as to the spirit from the standpoint of God.

 

[Regardless]

Regardless:
1 Peter 3:18-20 (NWT):…
Please explain how this, especially verse 19, could happen if souls cease to exist after death.

I want to answer some excellent questions in post 32, and 41. Both quote scriptures that are very relavant to life after death.
But to do so I really need to explain and justify the JW understanding of “Soul” first. Please bear with me.

As you all know, JW’s don’t believe humans have an immortal soul. (fairly unusual in a religion.) The Hebrew word for soul is “Nephesh” (Spirit is a different word). The greek equivalent is psyke. (excuse bad spelling)

We all know the Ancient Egyptians and other pagan nations believed in human immortal souls, busy preparing for the after life and helping / appeasing those already dead.
What about the Hebrews?

Below is a paragraph from the online encyclopedia Britannica under “Soul”. (I have underlined some bits)

“The early Hebrews apparently had a concept of the soul but did not separate it from the body, although later Jewish writers developed the idea of the soul further.Biblical references to the soul are related to the concept of breath and establish no distinction between the ethereal soul and the corporeal body.Christian concepts of a body-soul dichotomy originated with the ancient Greeks and were introduced into Christian theology at an early date by St. Gregory of Nyssa and by St. Augustine.”

The Hebrews belief was what the little Bible study group (that later became JW’s) came to. They reached their “unorthodox” views like this: Rather than going into the Bible with preconceived ideas - They would raise a subject, use a Bible concordance to find all the scriptures that related to it, compare the scriptures and decide what the Bible really taught, then say: “Ok. We will believe that.” And record their conclusion. They let scripture explain scripture.

So with the “Soul” subject, they faced scriptures like this:
Ezekiel 18:4, “The soul that sins will die.”
Ecclesiastes says: “The dead are conscious of nothing.”
There are scriptures where the soul is described as being killed by the sword. –
Adam “became a soul”, and was told he would “return to dust.”
(We see this is fitting with what Britannica above said about the ancient Hebrew beliefs.)

An excellent Biblical explaination of the soul can be found here: (Spirit is a different word)

watchtower.org/e/20070715/article_01.htm

So Christendom’s “immortal soul” came from Greek Philosophy, not from the Bible. (again, the encyclopedia above agrees with this) There were other subjects too. Even in the letters of the apostles we see them already having to deal with false beliefs creeping into the congregations from Pagan and greek sources. (1 Corinth. 15:12-19)

Bible writers instead believed in a future resurrection. Daniel was told in Dan 12:13 “You will rest, and stand up … at the end of the days.”
This is what the Jews of Jesus day believed. At Lazarus’ death Mary said: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”
Jesus taught the dead would rise from the memorial tombs. (John 5:28,29)
Paul believed the same, both “The righteous and unrighteous.” (Acts.)
There was no concept of dying and going to heaven. When Jesus promised the dying criminal at his side “you will be with me…” he used the word “paradise” not “heaven.”(you can look up the different greek words if you like) The criminal would have thought of an earthly park like the garden of eden.

But hold on! - If that is the truth, our studious friends have pointed out some scriptural contradictions! = Verses that fit what the Churches currently believe, but (if the encyclopedia is correct) were written before the churches believed it! How do the JW’s explain that?

This post is too long as it is, so I wont try and answer them here. But I will treat this as a foundation to build on when I answer them if you don’t mind.
Thanks for your patience!

 

[djd83]

Ah, the suspense

Just a couple notes:

Ezekiel 18:4 “The soul that is sinning-it itself will die.”

Could it be possible that ‘dying’ here means ‘being gone from the earth’ but not necessarily completely gone and nonexistent? That’s what Catholics mean when a person dies anyway. He or she is simply not existing in the body.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 “For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.”

Fair enough. I’ve always wondered at this verse. However, look at what the next verse says: Ecclesiastes 9:6 “Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.” Well, that’s not in line with either JW or Catholic belief, when taken at face value. This led me to believe that the meaning of these verses has either changed over time or a deeper meaning which we will not get by reading literally.

Just a couple thoughts I felt I should point out. Awaiting the next post, but feel free to take your time.

 

[Regardless]

Regardless:

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NWT):

18 Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit. 19 In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had once been disobedient hen the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.

Please explain how this, especially verse 19, could happen if souls cease to exist after death.

(Thanks for tidying up my last posts scriptures Djd83)

You raise a very good scripture!
The words “spirit” and “soul” are different in Hebrew, they are different in Greek and of course different in English.

Here is a link if you want to see the difference. watchtower.org/e/bh/appendix_07.htm
Otherwise, you will just have to take my word on it.

My earlier post (post 45) tried to explain JW’s understanding of Soul. (Greek word psy•khe′.) Basically it can be 1. People. 2. Animal, 3. The life they enjoy. (That link gives lots of examples)
Spirit (Greek word pneu′ma) has several meanings in the Bible, but here it is referring (obviously) to spirit creatures.

So please note: “Spirit” and “Soul” are different words.

In the 1 Peter passage (quoted above) we see “Spirit” twice and “Soul” once.

Jesus body died, and God resurected him to “Spirit” life. Note: no mention of his Soul carrying on automatically. (His soul perished on the torture stake- paying for our sins and giving us hope of eternal life. - Which incidentally, I don’t understand would be necessary if we had immortal souls that live on regardless – )

Also 1 Peter refers to “spirits in prison”. Are these Souls of the dead? The verse answers immediately. Spirits who had disobeyed in Noahs day (not spirits of people who disobeyed) =
Peter talks of them again at 2 Peter 2:4, but calls them “angels that sinned”, waiting for judgement, (Genesis 6 calls these angels “sons of God” coming down to have unnatural sex with humans) : so these “spirits” are the angels that rebelled. Demons. They are now shut out of God’s light.

But back in 1 Peter 3, we hear refernce to “souls” at last! Are they in heaven? No, they are living humans on earth. “Eight souls carried safely through the water”.= Noah and his family. Living people. (as our definition of “soul” requires)

So rather than disprove JW’s understanding of souls being mortal, 1 Peter actually supports it further. The contrast between “spirits” and “souls” is actually very well illustrated by this scripture! I will use it in future.

Beautiful. Scripture explains scripture. Thank you Jehovah for your fantastic word!
You can see why us JW’s love studying the Bible so much and telling others what we have learned. The more we study, the more it adds up. Like a jigsaw coming together.

But wait: … at post 32 “CoRedeemer” quotes Revelation where it says “Souls of the dead” are talking! Is my entire argument about to collapse? Another time.

(I was going to make a joke about suspence, but couldn’t think of one. )

 

[T_More]

Regardless, how does a dead man, Jesus Christ, preach?

Why would Jesus need to preach to angels? His sacrifice does not apply to them, so what would be the point?

 

[qederdxrt]

lolhttp://www.50centloseweight.com

 

[CoRedeemer]

Regardless, When Jesus had appeared to Moses and with Elijah and His body had transfigured up on the mountain, how is it that Moses is with them if he is dead? How does Moses appear to Jesus, to Simon Peter, to James and to his brother John? He has no body because he is dead? So how does Moses appear to them if he is dead and has no body? With what does he appear as?

So let us add Luke 16:19-31 and it gives a nice illustration of “Life after death.” If Jesus didn’t believe in the life after life, then why did he speak of it using illustrations? For example: Such illustrations he used were fire, torment, Angels, Abraham’s bossom, life after death, and why does he use this saying, "If they will not listen to Moses’ law and the Prophets, then neither will they listen if someone were to rise from the dead?

So you see, that Jesus Christ believes in the life after death, because if he didn’t then he would never ever speak of it, but, he does, and he gives illustrations using Angels picking up Lazarus and taking him to Abraham’s bossom; he illustrates a spiritual life of Father Abraham speaking and communicating, and he illustrates a spiritual fire, the torment of the rich man, and he gives a testimony of what the damned are regretting and pleading God to do for them. So, this can’t be taken lightly, for Jesus didn’t give this testimony lightly.

About Ezekiel saying " The soul that sins will die!" In many other non-English languages they use, “My soul,” to refer to their dearly beloved ones or children. Much like some people say, “Yes, dear, can I help you!” or much like “My dearly one!” Also if you are a father or an adult in most European languages they say this to the little children, “My Soul, how are you!” which is what God is saying to Ezekiel about the soul that sins, his little one, his dearly one will die, the little one will die, but not spiritually. “The Soul that sins will die!” Yes, but not spiritually. So, the dearly one will die physically but not spiritually.

The way to read and interpret scripture is to remember that Scripture cannot contradict scripture! When you follow this rule, then you can’t go wrong! But when you don’t follow this rule then you get contradictions! Such as: How do you explain Revelation 6:9-11 since it cannot contradict scripture? Neither can Revelation 14:11 which speaks about life after death? And 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 speak of life after death? And even 1 Peter 4:6 speaks of it? And 1 Peter 3:18-20? And Luke 16:19-31? And the Transfiguration of Jesus with Moses?

What I have been noticing, REGARDLESS, is that you have been using scripture to contradict scripture. You can’t use one part of Holy Scripture to contradict another part. And when you do this, then you are attacking your infallible guide - Scripture! You are making scripture appear fallible, and not infallible. Scripture is written infallible and always will be infallible, which means scripture cannot contradict scripture

God love you!

 

[djd83]

Here’s another scripture to explain:

Matthew 10:28 (NAB. I would use NWT but don’t have one with me at the moment):
And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."

If, as Regardless is saying, the soul cannot exist without the body, both would be killed at a person’s death, but evidently this is not so, as humans cannot kill the soul, even when the body dies.

 

[Regardless]

My post drew some good replies, some with further scriptural quotes.
I have read them all. Thanks.
And of course people have every right to weigh up the scriptural reasoning I use and decide it is explained away or negated by other scriptures.

But what do you all think of that Encyclopedia Britannica quote on soul? (post 45?) (in part: " …Christian concepts of a body-soul dichotomy originated with the ancient Greeks and were introduced into Christian theology …")
Is the encyclopedia in error saying Christendoms immortal soul concept comes from greek beliefs rather than the Bible?

And my own question to the Immortal soul argument: “Why did Jesus give his life as a ransom for our sins if we live on in heaven or hell regardless?”
I seriously don’t understand that.

P.S. - I will still get around to addressing the Revelation 6 statement! Also – the scriptures where Paul talks about going to heaven. (I might be able to cover the transfiguration point with the same reasoning - and now I have one in Matthew to research! ) They are first on my “Urgent to do” list. Sorry. I’m trying to keep up.

This is a great subject to discuss!
Thanks for your interest friends.

 

[Regardless]

And why are you avoiding answering Revelation 6:9-11? Well, tell a dead soul to wear a garment and to wait until their brother or sister are slaughtered in the same way as they were? Hmm… No life after death! Are you sure?

Finally, I’m on to it.

So with all the scriptures on “Souls” in mind – how do JW’s understand Revelation 6:9-11 where “souls” of dead are seen under “the alter,” crying out for vengeance?.

The “souls crying out” reminded me of Gen 4:10 where Jehovah says to Cain: “Your brothers blood is crying out to me from the ground!” Really? Talking blood? Or is this figuratively speaking?
It is a bit like when we say: “Justice is satisfied”. (We aren’t saying: there is a man named ‘Justice’ somewhere who now feels better)

Of course the Bible often uses figurative or symbolic expressions. **Especially in Visions! ** And if you are talking about symbolic language in the Bible, Revelation takes the prize.

The verses before rev 6 have the horsemen of the apocalypse. Are they real horses? Or are they symbolic, or used figuaratively?

We don’t use Gen 4:10 to argue blood can talk.
We don’t use Rev 6:10 to say these souls live under a particular altar in heaven.
Or Rev. 6:4 to prove a particular individual on a red horse will bring world war (with a very obsolete weapon I might add)
We don’t use Revelation 17 to argue animals can have seven heads, that a harlot named “Babylon the great” will ride one, that she will get drunk from holy ones blood,
or Rev 12 to show Satan is (not a rebel angel,) but actually a dragon with seven heads.
(You get the point )

So should we necessarily use Rev 6 to prove the souls (“people,” or their “lives” in JW understanding) are infact alive still?

 

[djd83]

Of course the Bible often uses figurative or symbolic expressions. **Especially in Visions! ** And if you are talking about symbolic language in the Bible, Revelation takes the prize.

Hmm… Interesting approach, but fair enough. Seems a bit awkward that “they were told to be patient” if the dead are not aware of anything, though.
Beside the point, however… If Revelation is full of symbolism, why is the 140,000 taken literally? Especially since they are symbolized as all male, symbolized as virgins, and symbolized as divided equally among the 12 tribes of Israel?

 

[djd83]

And my own question to the Immortal soul argument: “Why did Jesus give his life as a ransom for our sins if we live on in heaven or hell regardless?”
I seriously don’t understand that.

As St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:3, “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures.” Without Jesus’ death, there would be no forgiveness of sins. Therefore, without his death, there would be no way for the people to be cleansed of their sins to reach heaven, for what goes to heaven must be holy.

 

[djd83]

And my own question to the Immortal soul argument: “Why did Jesus give his life as a ransom for our sins if we live on in heaven or hell regardless?”
I seriously don’t understand that.

Just some random thoughts before I head to bed:
Jesus died for our sins, as Scripture said. (1 Cor 15:3; John 8:36).
Jesus would bear our guilt through his death (Isa 53:11).
Jesus ‘won pardon for our offenses’ (Isa 53:12).
Jesus went to heaven, received the Holy Spirit, and gave it to his followers. (Acts 2:33).

Without the forgiveness of sin, the “pardon for our offenses,” people would not be holy enough to enter heaven, for Revelation 21:27 says “nothing unclean will enter it”.

 

[Regardless]

…
Without the forgiveness of sin, the “pardon for our offenses,” people would not be holy enough to enter heaven, for Revelation 21:27 says “nothing unclean will enter it”.

We totally agree with that.

So does the Church teach that people who died before Jesus went to to heaven?

 

[Regardless]

…
Beside the point, however… If Revelation is full of symbolism, why is the 140,000 taken literally? Especially since they are symbolized as all male, symbolized as virgins, and symbolized as divided equally among the 12 tribes of Israel?

Good point.

It does create a contrast to an indefinite “great crowd no one can number” a few verses later.

Otherwise, I have no answer.

Have a good sleep.

 

[Dorothy]

Good point.

It does create a contrast to an indefinite “great crowd no one can number” a few verses later.

Otherwise, I have no answer.

Have a good sleep.

The number 144,000 is the number 12 squared. Twelve is a special number biblically.

It means a large number of people.

 

[CoRedeemer]

Finally, I’m on to it.

So with all the scriptures on “Souls” in mind – how do JW’s understand Revelation 6:9-11 where “souls” of dead are seen under “the alter,” crying out for vengeance?.

The “souls crying out” reminded me of Gen 4:10 where Jehovah says to Cain: “Your brothers blood is crying out to me from the ground!” Really? Talking blood? Or is this figuratively speaking?
It is a bit like when we say: “Justice is satisfied”. (We aren’t saying: there is a man named ‘Justice’ somewhere who now feels better)

Of course the Bible often uses figurative or symbolic expressions. **Especially in Visions! ** And if you are talking about symbolic language in the Bible, Revelation takes the prize.

The verses before rev 6 have the horsemen of the apocalypse. Are they real horses? Or are they symbolic, or used figuaratively?

We don’t use Gen 4:10 to argue blood can talk.
We don’t use Rev 6:10 to say these souls live under a particular altar in heaven.
Or Rev. 6:4 to prove a particular individual on a red horse will bring world war (with a very obsolete weapon I might add)
We don’t use Revelation 17 to argue animals can have seven heads, that a harlot named “Babylon the great” will ride one, that she will get drunk from holy ones blood,
or Rev 12 to show Satan is (not a rebel angel,) but actually a dragon with seven heads.
(You get the point )

So should we necessarily use Rev 6 to prove the souls (“people,” or their “lives” in JW understanding) are infact alive still?

In Revelation 6:9-11 why were the souls of the dead given a white garments? If you say that there is no life after death, then why were they given a white garment? How can you explain that?

It says in Revelation 6:11 “Then each one of them was given a white garment, and they were told to wait a little while, until the number of their brothers and sisters and fellow servants who would be killed as they had been would be completed!”

Here is a question: How are these souls given a white garment if they are dead, thus it says then they were told to wait until their brothers and sisters and fellow servants would be killed as they had been, so how can you give a white garment and tell someone to wait if they are dead?

This is what I mean, Regardless, that you can’t use one scripture verse to contradict another part of scripture! And when you do this, you are attacking scripture itself! You have to interpret the whole doctrine on life after death from the entire and complete scripture itself, and not just using one verse that is imperfectly defined, such as Genesis 4:10 about Abel’s blood truly speaking out. We have to look at it entirely from all of holy scripture and not omit one verse. We have to look at: 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18-20, 2 Corinthians 5:6-8. Luke 16:19-31, Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 14:11, Genesis 4:10 You can’t exlude one verse and say, “Let’s avoid this verse because it doesn’t agree with our doctrine!” You can’t do that. You can’t

Anyways! I hope you can explain to me about the dead in Revelation 6:9-11 and how do they receive the white garment if they are dead? How do they receive a white garment if they are dead and are told to wait? It just doesn’t make sense to give a dead person, in other words, a soul, a white garment if there is no life after death? How does God or somebody from the otherside give them a white garment if they are dead and are told to wait? How?