Jehovah Witness

[dogknox]

SteveVH Do you think Pointing out the word CHURCH in the scriptures then Asking them why they do NOT have Churches, is a good idea!?

Dogknox

 

[dogknox]

One particularly virulent doctrine, and one they will not tell you at all, if they ever tell you, is that Jesus is the mediator not for you, but only for members of the 144,000, the “anointed” as they call them. Plus, the Christian scriptures are only written to the 144,000, NOT to any others. I’ll repeat that: the contents of the Christian scriptures are for the anointed and apply to them only, not to the vast majority of humanity, who are the “other sheep.”

That’s interesting. If the scriptures are only for the 144.000 why are they using the scriptures? Do they think they are one of the 144,00 and what proof do they have?

Good point… Here they are at my door pointing to the scriptures, yet the scriptures they are pointing at, do NOT apply to them or me because most likely, themselves are not even part of the so called saved… The 144,000!!

Whack, whack, whack, OHHHH!?

 

[jlhargus]

Hey thanks! I’ll remember “paradise earth” the next time.

JL: 1935 is one I have never had a JW answer, they just go on to something else. Where in the Bible is 1935 the doors of Heaven closed. Those born after 1935 cannot enter the New Covenant. 144,000.00 complete.

My understanding, maybe T More can verify, the Governing Body can ONLY come from the 144thousand. Since they are all elderly, at lest 75 years of age, who will govern after they are all dead? Can those outside the New Covenant govern? Is the END again expected before all the 144 thousand die? Wont the WT have to come up with a new theology before the last 144 dies?

Also T More if you don’t mind could you explain the WT position on Michael being Christ. My understanding Michael existed in heaven, but went out of existance when Christ became MAN. Then Christ the Man went out of existence and AGAIN became Michael when Christ the MAN died and went out of EXISTANCE. Yet scripture clearly shows the MAN Jesus in heaven, as our mediator and judge.

[1Tm2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and MEN (ANTHROPOS=human being, whether male or female), the MAN (ANTHROPOS=human being) Christ Jesus,

Acts17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the MAN (ANER, man=individual male) he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising HIM from the dead."]

I posted this once for a JW and he just said it was not WT teaching and would not explain what the teaching was.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Say what? The Watchtower corporation is a publishing company that forces its adherents to document their efforts in knocking on doors to gain converts at the risk of loosing their status in the organization. They don’t even refer to themselves as a church. Most organizations have some sort of hierarchical structure. That does not make them unique in any way and it certainly does not bring them anywhere near to the Catholic Church.

Oh yes, they certainly are a publishing company, and as far as the Watchtower corporation is concerned the sole purpose of the Witnesses going from door to door is to make money for the corporation. The Watchtower company is extremely wealthy, having salesmen working for free!

They don’t call themselves a church either, and they used to not even call themselves Christian. They try to be as unlike “Christendom” as possible.

However, alas, they do have a structure and hierarchy that compares to the Catholic Church, no matter how much they may not like it. The don’t like to be compared to the churches, but a comparison can be made. The president of the corporation is like the pope, the board of directors (governing body) is the college of cardinals, the circuit and district overseers like archbishops and bishops, and the elders and ministerial servants like priest and deacons!

There the comparison ends, for the individual witnesses are unpaid slaves to the society.

Of course, in actuality, the Watchtower Society is simply an American corporation, formed for the purpose of making money.

 

[jlhargus]

However, alas, they do have a structure and hierarchy that compares to the Catholic Church, no matter how much they may not like it. The don’t like to be compared to the churches, but a comparison can be made. The president of the corporation is like the pope, the board of directors (governing body) is the college of cardinals, the circuit and district overseers like archbishops and bishops, and the elders and ministerial servants like priest and deacons!

There the comparison ends, for the individual witnesses are unpaid slaves to the society.

Of course, in actuality, the Watchtower Society is simply an American corporation, formed for the purpose of making money.

JL: The comparisons are from the New Testament. The WT had the advantage of having the NT to go by. The Catholic Church was formed by the Apostles and that form was later written into the NT.

 

[mackbrislawn]

One particularly virulent doctrine, and one they will not tell you at all, if they ever tell you, is that Jesus is the mediator not for you, but only for members of the 144,000, the “anointed” as they call them. Plus, the Christian scriptures are only written to the 144,000, NOT to any others. I’ll repeat that: the contents of the Christian scriptures are for the anointed and apply to them only, not to the vast majority of humanity, who are the “other sheep.”

That’s interesting. If the scriptures are only for the 144.000 why are they using the scriptures? Do they think they are one of the 144,00 and what proof do they have?

The Witnesses are not completely consistent in their own theology. However, the Witness who comes to your door and quotes scripture is doing it on behalf of the anointed ones. An individual Witness attains salvation by his attitude and obedience to the anointed. “Whatever you do for these, you do for me” is the verse they use. “These” they interpret to mean the 144,000! So, when the Witness goes from door to door and is submissive to the Society, he will be resurrected into the 1000 year kingdom, and if still obedient then, will be saved eternally into the “paradise earth.”

The 144,000 when they die will become spirit creatures and be in heaven with Jesus. They do not live in the flesh on paradise earth. And note that God does not come down to paradise earth but stays in heaven.

 

[mackbrislawn]

That’s interesting. If the scriptures are only for the 144.000 why are they using the scriptures? Do they think they are one of the 144,00 and what proof do they have?

Oh, I left this part out. The individual Witness decides for him or herself if they are of the 144,000, and they indicate this by partaking of the bread and wine at the Witness’s annual memorial service.

They have no actual proof, just by their own internal feelings. Of course, the door to the 144,000 was supposed to have been closed in 1935, so what business do Witnesses of today have in deciding they are one of the 144,000? Well, every now and then, one of the existing 144,000 “loses his crown” and so creates a vacancy!

Incidentally, all the early Christians were automatically of the 144,000 so that is why the NT is written to them only, not to the present day Witnesses who are mostly of the “other sheep.”

In the late 1800’s and 1900’s when the Watchtower movement was beginning, everyone who joined was also automatically one of the 144,000, the anointed. But by 1935 it was becoming obvious that their numbers were exceeding 144,000 so what to do with the excess? Hence the concept of the other sheep was invented, drawing upon Jesus statement that he had other sheep as well to bring into the fold.

 

[sedonaman]

Oh, I left this part out. The individual Witness decides for him or herself if they are of the 144,000, and they indicate this by partaking of the bread and wine at the Witness’s annual memorial service.

They have no actual proof, just by their own internal feelings. Of course, the door to the 144,000 was supposed to have been closed in 1935, so what business do Witnesses of today have in deciding they are one of the 144,000? Well, every now and then, one of the existing 144,000 “loses his crown” and so creates a vacancy!

Incidentally, all the early Christians were automatically of the 144,000 so that is why the NT is written to them only, not to the present day Witnesses who are mostly of the “other sheep.”

In the late 1800’s and 1900’s when the Watchtower movement was beginning, everyone who joined was also automatically one of the 144,000, the anointed. But by 1935 it was becoming obvious that their numbers were exceeding 144,000 so what to do with the excess? Hence the concept of the other sheep was invented, drawing upon Jesus statement that he had other sheep as well to bring into the fold.

I also heard something about the year 1914. How does that factor in?

 

[sedonaman]

… I asked him who gave him the authority to interpret the Revelations. …

Their founder obviously rejected the teachings of other religions and interpreted the Bible himself and came up with different beliefs on what the Bible says. Well, if he did it, why can’t I? Why do I need him and his interpretation?

 

[dogknox]

Their founder obviously rejected the teachings of other religions and interpreted the Bible himself and came up with different beliefs on what the Bible says. Well, if he did it, why can’t I? Why do I need him and his interpretation?

I pointed this out… Their FOUNDER was a man named “Russel”! They said, “NOPE Our founder is Jesus Christ!”

 

[sedonaman]

I pointed this out… Their FOUNDER was a man named “Russel”! They said, “NOPE Our founder is Jesus Christ!”

We can pull that thread: Russell is the one who came up with their interpretations. If he had not, or if there had never been a Russell, there would be no JW. Someone here mentioned pedigree. Perhaps ask them to trace the succession from Jesus to Russell.

I’m not sure if it was JW or the Mormons, but the book I read illustrated how they changed one word slightly in the Bible, and it changed the whole meaning – to fit their ideology. So it was sort of a “reverse” interpretation. That’s why I tell them I don’t accept their Bible at all.

That kinda disarms them because they don’t have anything to talk to, and it puts them more on an equal plane with someone like me who hasn’t rehearsed a script.

 

[kaneata]

When they come to your door, how about having them read John 20: 28-29. It is when Thomas was doubting and then said, “My Lord and my God!” The JW’s NWT has the same words, but they don’t believe that Jesus is God. So ask them what Thomas means when he says those words. It sounds pretty clear to me. Plus Jesus responds by saying how lucky we are since we believe and haven’t seen him.

I can see how they can confuse a lot of people who don’t know their Catholic faith well. Study up on what the Church believes and the history of the early Church. They have some strange beliefs.

 

[Keith_W_OR_USA]

I agree. I’ve known quite a few JW’s myself and this just doesn’t pan out. As Catholics, I think most of us get perturbed with myths about our religion. JW’s true beliefs speak for themselves. We certainly don’t need to make things up. It isn’t necessary or fair.

Go ahead and talk to an JW elder about Lot’s relationship with his daughters. The answer will be quite an eye opening.

 

[SteveVH]

When they come to your door, how about having them read John 20: 28-29. It is when Thomas was doubting and then said, “My Lord and my God!” The JW’s NWT has the same words, but they don’t believe that Jesus is God. So ask them what Thomas means when he says those words. It sounds pretty clear to me. Plus Jesus responds by saying how lucky we are since we believe and haven’t seen him.

I can see how they can confuse a lot of people who don’t know their Catholic faith well. Study up on what the Church believes and the history of the early Church. They have some strange beliefs.

They have an answer, trust me. The answer is that he was not really saying what he said. I have had this very conversation with them on more than one occasion. The most common explanation I have been given is that it was an expression of surprise, such as “Holy Moley”. You be the judge of the credibility of that statement.

 

[sedonaman]

They have an answer, trust me. The answer is that he was not really saying what he said. I have had this very conversation with them on more than one occasion. The most common explanation I have been given is that it was an expression of surprise, such as “Holy Moley”. You be the judge of the credibility of that statement.

Do you think their interpretation of the Bible is more or less fundamentalist?

 

[SteveVH]

Do you think their interpretation of the Bible is more or less fundamentalist?

No, it is completely unique to their particular preconceived notions. There is really no other denomination to which it would compare that I can see. Their adamant rejection of the divinity of Christ stands out, but their concept of heaven, paradise on earth for those who were too late to qualify, the denial of hell, annihilation of the soul, etc… are uniquely JW.

 

[GEddie]

No, it is completely unique to their particular preconceived notions. There is really no other denomination to which it would compare that I can see. Their adamant rejection of the divinity of Christ stands out, but their concept of heaven, paradise on earth for those who were too late to qualify, the denial of hell, annihilation of the soul, etc… are uniquely JW.

Actually, not quite. “Annihilation of the soul” (or soul-sleep) was held also by the Millerites (now 7th Day Adventists) of whom CT Russell was one; making the JWs an offshoot of them.

They base this teaching on Psa 146: “He returns to the earth; in that day his thoughts perish.” They understand that to mean that the mind or thinking power perishes, i.e. what we as Catholics would associate with the “rational human soul.”

Everybody’s soul “perishes”, so they say, but God can reinstate it in the end. Which of course, he can.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[T_More]

JL: 1935 is one I have never had a JW answer, they just go on to something else. Where in the Bible is 1935 the doors of Heaven closed. Those born after 1935 cannot enter the New Covenant. 144,000.00 complete.

This is partly true. As these ones have grown older and died off, and since the JW’s have taught that Jesus has invisibly returned in 1914 and that Armageddon would take place before the generation of “annointed” ones would die off (they interpret Matthew 24:34-35 as being this present day generation), they have had to “reinterpret” the meaning of “generation”. As others have stepped forward and claimed to be one of the 144,000 since 1935, the JW’s have understood this to mean that they are replacing others that made that claim who lost their postion due to sin and falling out of favor with God. In other words, He selected them, and later, de-selected them. In addition, they also claim that those who do step foward today as being one of the 144,000 could also be mentally unstable. Incidently, all of their present Governing Body, who claim to be one of the “annointed144,000”, have been born after 1935.

My understanding, maybe T More can verify, the Governing Body can ONLY come from the 144thousand. Since they are all elderly, at lest 75 years of age, who will govern after they are all dead? Can those outside the New Covenant govern? Is the END again expected before all the 144 thousand die? Wont the WT have to come up with a new theology before the last 144 dies?

The Governing Body is only made up of the 144,000, but the “fathful & discreet slave” is made up of ALL the remaining 144,000 who partake at their annual Memorial. But as I stated above, the present Governing Body members have been born after 1935. Incidently, the current President of the WT, Don Adams, is NOT of the 144,000. To answer your last two questions, it was originally expected that this generation would die not out before Christ’s return, but they have recently re-interpreted the meaning of what constitutes a “generation” (see this link , jwfacts.com/watchtower/generation.php ) thereby buying themselves more time. So yes, they have had to come up with a new theology. This comes under their “new light” doctrine.

Also T More if you don’t mind could you explain the WT position on Michael being Christ. My understanding Michael existed in heaven, but went out of existance when Christ became MAN. Then Christ the Man went out of existence and AGAIN became Michael when Christ the MAN died and went out of EXISTANCE. Yet scripture clearly shows the MAN Jesus in heaven, as our mediator and judge.

Yes, their teaching is that Jesus was Michael the Archangel before the Incarnation (they do not call it the Incarnation), took on another body all together at the Resurrection, and then returned to heaven (non physically, only in spirit) and became Michael the Archangel once again. They use the scripture 1 Thess. 4:16 as their main case for Jesus being Michael, but obviously when one reads it, it is not implying this at all and is a very weak defense of their position.

[1Tm2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and MEN (ANTHROPOS=human being, whether male or female), the MAN (ANTHROPOS=human being) Christ Jesus,

Acts17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the MAN (ANER, man=individual male) he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising HIM from the dead."]

I posted this once for a JW and he just said it was not WT teaching and would not explain what the teaching was.

 

[Adonia]

In a polite way I tell them that I am secure in my faith. Then I pose the question: What you are trying to tell me that for some 1832 years God would allow a lie to be told among the peoples of the world untill your founder came along with the truth? Sorry, I’m not buying it.

 

[SteveVH]

Actually, not quite. “Annihilation of the soul” (or soul-sleep) was held also by the Millerites (now 7th Day Adventists) of whom CT Russell was one; making the JWs an offshoot of them.

They base this teaching on Psa 146: “He returns to the earth; in that day his thoughts perish.” They understand that to mean that the mind or thinking power perishes, i.e. what we as Catholics would associate with the “rational human soul.”

Everybody’s soul “perishes”, so they say, but God can reinstate it in the end. Which of course, he can.

ICXC NIKA.

Yes that is accurate. Thanks for the correction. Too bad we can’t get a JW to enter into the discussion. Somehow it doesn’t seem right to banter around what we think they believe without them involved in the discussion.