Jehovah Witnesses "prove" Christ not God

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The Jehovah Witnesses use the following passages to “prove” that Christ is God’s Son and is inferior to Him and, therefore, not God:

Matt. 3:17
Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”

John 8:42
Jesus said to them: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.

John 14:28
You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.

John 20:17
“Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

1 Cor. 11:3
But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.

1 Cor. 15:28
But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

How are these passages to be interpreted and how do we answer these “proofs”?
(This same question was previously entered in (probably) the wrong forum - Ask an Apologist).
 
my first impression is that the jehovah witness is jumping around scripture a lot. have you read any of these verses in context of the individual chapters that each verse is in/

by the way, the shift key on my laptop is broke. so i can’t use capitals or question marks.:o
 
fischcabob said:
The Jehovah Witnesses use the following passages to “prove” that Christ is God’s Son and is inferior to Him and, therefore, not God:

Matt. 3:17
Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”

John 8:42
Jesus said to them: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.

John 14:28
You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.

John 20:17
“Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

1 Cor. 11:3
But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.

1 Cor. 15:28
But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

How are these passages to be interpreted and how do we answer these “proofs”?
(This same question was previously entered in (probably) the wrong forum - Ask an Apologist).
Click to expand...
The Gospel of John,

In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and Word is God… and the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us. Well, Jesus is the Word and became flesh.

We also have Thomas called Jesus, My Lord and My God, and worshipped him, and Jesus did not rebute them.

In Revelation

I am, the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord, God, who is, and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

In Revelation 1:17-20,

John sees Jesus,

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead, he laid his right hand upon me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one, I died and behold I am alive for evermore. I have the keys of death and hades.”
 
I found a reply: (excerpted)

Is Christ Inferior?

The Witnesses argue that the Son is inferior in nature to the Father from verses such as these: “The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing” (John 5:19). “I have not come of my own initiative, but he that sent me is real, and you do not know him. I know him because I am a representative from him, and that one sent me forth” (John 7:28-29). “I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am” (John 14:28).
What can be said about these verses? First, they may be referring to Christ’s human nature, as distinguished from his divine nature. His human nature, being created, is clearly subordinate to the Father’s divine nature.

Second, they may also refer to Christ’s person insofar as the person of the Son is generated or begotten by the person of the Father. This doesn’t mean he is unequal in his divine nature and therefore not divine. It means there is a certain logical relationship between the two persons of the Father and the Son (who are both equally divine) in which it may be said, rightly, that “the Father is greater than I”—greater in the order of the three divine persons, not greater in the order of nature or being.

Third, they may refer to the Son’s role in the economy of redemption. He came to fulfill the Father’s will in redeeming us and to reveal the Father to us, thus serving the Father. Hence, the Father holds a position in some sense superior to his. Thus the Son might be said to be inferior to the Father in the role he plays, but not in his essential nature.

Are there verses that argue against the Witnesses’ position? Sure. One example is John 5:1-18, where Jesus cures a man on the Sabbath. The Jews became angry because Jesus “worked” on the Sabbath, and in response Jesus said, “‘My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working.’ On this account indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God” (verses 17-18). Only God can be equal to himself, and this passage therefore shows that Jesus is God.

The Witnesses also ignore the import of Matthew 28:19: “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit.” Another translator’s slip here? Note the singular “name.” If the Father, Son, and “holy spirit” were three different entities—God, exalted creature, and impersonal force—then they’d have three names, not one name. The fact that the singular is used implies a unity of being.

What is that one name that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit share? If there is a single, revealed name for all three Persons, that name may be Yahweh. There can be no question that God is referred to in the Old Testament as Yahweh (understood by the JWs as “Jehovah”), and this name applies to the Son as well. For example, Jesus speaking in John 8:24 says, “Therefore I said to you, You will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am [he], you will die in your sins.” Notice that the NWT has added “he” in brackets to obscure the fact that the Greek words here are the words for “I Am.” (“He” is not present.) An identical situation occurs at John 8:28.

As any Bible student knows, “I Am” corresponds to Jehovah or Yahweh (cf. Ex. 3:14:“God said to Moses . . . ‘Say to the people of Israel, ‘I Am has sent me to you,’” RSV).

Go over these verses carefully with the next Witness who comes to your door. Show him, always, the context of what is being said, whether on this topic or on any other. Remember, the Witnesses take verses out of context. They are the preeminent proof-texters. Often the very next verse will undercut their interpretation of the single verse they’re expounding to you. Never accept their interpretations or their NWT at face value. Always have on hand Catholic and Protestant translations with which to compare the NWT. Read everything in context, always showing the Witnesses the context.
NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

catholic.com/library/god_of_the_jehovah_witnesses.asp
 
fischcabob said:
I found a reply: (excerpted)

Is Christ Inferior?

. . .

Go over these verses carefully with the next Witness who comes to your door. Show him, always, the context of what is being said, whether on this topic or on any other. Remember, the Witnesses take verses out of context. They are the preeminent proof-texters. Often the very next verse will undercut their interpretation of the single verse they’re expounding to you. Never accept their interpretations or their NWT at face value. Always have on hand Catholic and Protestant translations with which to compare the NWT. Read everything in context, always showing the Witnesses the context.
NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

catholic.com/library/god_of_the_jehovah_witnesses.asp
Click to expand...
This site is also helpful when engaging with Jehovah’s Witnesses:

www.catholicxjw.com
 
fischcabob said:
The Jehovah Witnesses use the following passages to “prove” that Christ is God’s Son and is inferior to Him and, therefore, not God:

Matt. 3:17
Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”.
Click to expand...
Hi
There are so many threads here addressing questions to JWs, which they never respond to themselves. So why ask questions to them in the first place?
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of Muhammad’sIslam and PromisedMessiahImamMahdi’sIslam is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking only peaceful.
GodAllahYHWH is All-Knowing; one should invariably give Claim and Reason on all important issues from one’s Revealed Book; one shouldn’t try putting one’s own words into God’s mouth.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
There are so many threads here addressing questions to JWs, which they never respond to themselves. So why ask questions to them in the first place?
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of Muhammad’sIslam and PromisedMessiahImamMahdi’sIslam is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking only peaceful.
GodAllahYHWH is All-Knowing; one should invariably give Claim and Reason on all important issues from one’s Revealed Book; one shouldn’t try putting one’s own words into God’s mouth.
Click to expand...
I agree, If a person were to turn the same question to them they inveriably have no answer and the reason is that they are given a section of the Bible and that is all they know. They don’t inverably know the leading to that point or the reason why, that comes after.
Jeusus tells us NOT to be detered by “he who comes dressed like the lamb but is the wolf in disguise”

God YHWH bless
littleone
 
Hm. There is clearly a misunderstanding about the Church’s teaching by the JW. All He has attempted truly to prove is that the Son is not the Father.

This is true!

They both are of the same, eternal Divine Nature, but the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct (although not separate). One God, Three Persons.

All these scripture verses have pointed out is this distinction. Now what about all the verses that declare Their unity? 🤷 😛

Christ is God. The Father is God. The Spirit is God. There is One God.

Just because Christ makes a distinction between Himself and the Father does not suddenly throw all Catholic theology down the drain.
 
What would happen if God came on this earth in the spiritual form that He is. Obviously our physical body could ot contain the presence of God in that form. Meaning that sin cold not stand in the presence of the sinless one.

So to give mankind the message of the new testement He had to come on earth in the form that He tells us to relate to each other. “Go to the person at their height”, as Jesus did. God therefore came on this earth in the form of how He created mankind in the human form. That is the reason why God came in the form of Jesus Christ it is the only way He could present the truth He needed us to accept (or reject).

Does that mean that Jesus is not God, no it only means that God loves His creation that much that He came down at their height made Himself smaller than His creation in that He gave ALL for the redemption of His own creation.
That makes Him the “Son of God”. the belovid one,
God bless
littleone
 
Also consider this which proves their claim untrue. Thomas said to Jesus when he had seen His hands, My Lord and my God! if Jesus was not God, He would have rebuked him right away. Why? Because if Jesus was not God, He would have told Thomas not to say something like that. Since Jesus is God, He did not rebuke Thomas for saying that did He? No. So this alone proves their claim false.

Not just that, Jesus stated that on the third day, He would raise Himself up under His own power. If He was not God, He would not be able to make such a statement would He? No. Since He is God, He can and did make that statement and it is true. This also proves their claim untrue.

Consider also this, He stated, I and the Father are one. This also proves their claim untrue. jw’s like to misinterpret this to mean that God and Jesus are in total harmony without being one and the same.

They love to twist the Scriptures to suit their belief, and they have added and taken away from the Holy Bible, and note what it says in Revelation 22 :18-19 about that. Not what I would want to happen to me. uh uh no way.
 
fischcabob said:
The Jehovah Witnesses use the following passages to “prove” that Christ is God’s Son and is inferior to Him and, therefore, not God:

Matt. 3:17
Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”

John 8:42
Jesus said to them: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.

John 14:28
You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.

John 20:17
“Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

1 Cor. 11:3
But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.

1 Cor. 15:28
But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

How are these passages to be interpreted and how do we answer these “proofs”?
(This same question was previously entered in (probably) the wrong forum - Ask an Apologist).
Click to expand...
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=158270

John 5:18 (New International Version)

For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

In the culture of Jesus’ day, claiming to be God’s Son was making a claim to be God.
 
If you read John 5:18-20 closely, you will see that Jesus is following his Fathers’ will. He sees the Father do something than Jesus does the same thing by his OWN ablity. If you look closely at the works of God you will find for example that God The Father raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 10:9), Jesus raised Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21; John 10:17-18), and The Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 8:11). Each, working under their OWN ABILITY, but each following the WILL of the Father.

The Biblical Basis of the
Doctrine of the Trinity:
An Outline Study

By Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
apologetics.com
spotlightministries.org.uk/bowmanonthetrinity.htm
 
Whether the JDubs or others believe that Jesus is or is not the equal omipotent being of God is not the question here. The question here is, is God able to have the wisdom to come on to this earth mingle with HIS people ( since they are made to His likenes) in the form of a human person?
The answer is, of corse He is. He created mankind in the first place.The reason why Jesus, God didn’t come onto this earth in the radiant form of His Pure Spiritual ( for a want of words) form is naturally that because had He, then the spirit of God in mankind would not be able to take it, we would all have burst (or other) apart. Why? well because God is Pure, we are not and non pure can never stand in fromt of Pure. That is the reason why purgatory is there to purg, make clean.

Make sence of course. God is not mathmatical but His Love is very simple, that is the very reason why science cannot, and will never accept God in His love in it’s purity. Why because God is TRUTH. Science is theoretical. Theory is the study scientifically of reason from one persons understanding who has been given a higher position through their learning and understanding than another.

Science in theory tells us that "if something can be seen then it is so it must be.Jesus told Thomas that he was blessed because he saw and believed, but Jesus also tells this generation that we are more blessed because we have not seen, but stil we believe.

I believe that Jesus in the form of mankind is the true son of God.( the only way He could come onto this earth) In the spirit He is the True omnipotent person of God equal with the Father who created. The Holy Spirit who God needed to send to us to bring all from the old testement to the new testement. Thats why Jesus tells us that nolonger is it to kill take anothers wife, but we only have to “think” of doing this because it is the spirit in us that leads us to act.
We donot need to see to believe but believe because of Jesus giving His life that we may have eternal life
God bless
littleone
 
This is off the top of my head, so any criticism and comments welcomed.

To start with, John plainly tells us that in their Jewish thinking that claiming to be the Son of God is claiming to be divine. According to Peter, we christians are partakers of the divine nature – not that we are literally God, and thus we are children of God.

John 5 (New International Version)

16So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, **but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. **
19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Look at his trail.

Mark 14:60-64 (New International Version)

60Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 61But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.
Again the high priest asked him, **“Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” **

62**“I am,”** said Jesus. **“And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” **

63The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64"You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?" They all condemned him as worthy of death.

Based on Lev 24:16, if Jesus claim to be the divine messiah were false, then it is blasphemy worthy of death. The whole point, as the Son of God ( in Matthew 26 ) or Son of the Blessed ( Mark 14 ) he was claiming to be the divine messiah. By quoting Daniel 7, he was laying claim to being the final Judge and Ruler of mankind.

Jesus claims,
  1. to be the Messiah
  2. to be the Son of the Blessed One
  3. Sitting at right hand of God the Father
  4. Coming on Clouds of heaven
Background information: The Jews were expecting one of two messiahs, Yeshua Ben David or Yeshua Ben Joseph. One was Divine, the other simply a liberator, thus human. In the past, there were people who claimed to be the messiah and that was not considered to be Blasphemy. For documentation of the two views see,

The Divine Messiah by Robert L Reymond
The Messiah Texts by Raphael Patai ( jewish author )
Yeshua Ben David by Walter Riggans
Jesus Ben Joseph by Walter Riggans

The high priest was spefically asking him if he were the Divine Messiah, in the paralell passage in Matthew 26, the phrase “Son of God” was used. Jesus confirms that he is the divine messiah and applies Psalms 110:1 Daniel 7:9-18 to himself.

9 "As I looked,
"thrones were set in place,
and the **Ancient of Days **took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.

10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.

…

13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

…

18 But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever—yes, for ever and ever.’

Micah 5:2 (New International Version)
Code: 
  "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, 
   though you are small among the clans  of Judah, 
   out of you will come for me 
   one who will be ruler over Israel, 
   whose origins ** are from of old, 
   from ancient times.**
paralells: “right hand” Acts 2:33, Heb 2:9, Rev 12:5, Eph 1:20-23, Phil 2:9-11. “clouds” Dan 7:13, Joel 2:2, Zeph 1:15, Rev 1:7, 14"14-16.
 
Daniel 7:9-18

9 "As I looked,
"thrones were set in place,
and the **Ancient of Days **took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.

10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.

Rev 1

12I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man,"dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze** glowing in a furnace,** and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

In short, Jesus claimed to be the Divine Messiah, Son of God, Son of the Blessed. This claim was assumed to be false and worthy of death.
 
Mannyfit75 said:
The Gospel of John,

In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and Word is God… and the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us. Well, Jesus is the Word and became flesh.

We also have Thomas called Jesus, My Lord and My God, and worshipped him, and Jesus did not rebute them.
Click to expand...
You’re right, but the JW version of the Bible (that was not even translated by true Bible scholars educated in languages in which the Bible was written), John 1:1 says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the word was A God.” [emphasis added] They changed it to prove their point that Jesus is not God.

Also, in John 8:58-59 “Turly, truley, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” The JW’s version says, “I have been” instead of “I am.” But the Jews listening to Jesus totally recognized that Jesus was saying he was God, and they started picking up stones to kill him because only God can use that title without blaspheming. There is NOTHING blasphemous about Jesus saying, “I have been,” it would not have made sense in Mosaic law for the Jews to stone Jesus for saying that he “had been.”

Additionally, it’s my understanding that this was translated from the Greek “ego eimi” and it’s the same phrase that God uses in Ex 3:14 and says his name. How can the JW version of the Bible translate John to “I have been” and Exodus to “I am” when it’s the same Greek phrase, ego eimi? They do it because it’s convenient for their purpose.

How about “worship him,” in Matt 28:17; Heb 1:6; Rev 5:13-14, 14:7, 22:3 ? Are we supposed to worship anyone but God? Romans 1:25 and Rev 22:8-9 show us that we are not to worship any creature.
 
Hi Valerie, to get around the worship texts they mistranslated Hebrews 1:6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.” (NWT). Basically, they are saying that like Lot in Genesis would bow to his visitors out of respect, God the Father is telling the angels to bow to Jesus our of respect, thus they avoid the fact that Jesus was worshipped in the NT and worshipped thoughout church history. Even Pliny when writing a letter about how to deal with the christians recognised this fact.
Pliny is writing about christ as a god in the context of emperior worship, where the emperor was believed to be a God.

Pliny, Letters 10.96-97
Pliny to the Emperor Trajan

It is my practice, my lord, to refer to you all matters concerning which I am in doubt. For who can better give guidance to my hesitation or inform my ignorance? I have never participated in trials of Christians. I therefore do not know what offenses it is the practice to punish or investigate, and to what extent. And I have been not a little hesitant as to whether there should be any distinction on account of age or no difference between the very young and the more mature; whether pardon is to be granted for repentance, or, if a man has once been a Christian, it does him no good to have ceased to be one; whether the name itself, even without offenses, or only the offenses associated with the name are to be punished.

Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.

Soon accusations spread, as usually happens, because of the proceedings going on, and several incidents occurred. An anonymous document was published containing the names of many persons. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ–none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do–these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. *They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ. *

They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food–but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.

I therefore postponed the investigation and hastened to consult you. For the matter seemed to me to warrant consulting you, especially because of the number involved. For many persons of every age, every rank, and also of both sexes are and will be endangered. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found. Hence it is easy to imagine what a multitude of people can be reformed if an opportunity for repentance is afforded.

ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/texts/pliny.html
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
**There are so many threads here addressing questions to JWs, which they never respond to themselves. So why ask questions to them in the first place?**Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of Muhammad’sIslam and PromisedMessiahImamMahdi’sIslam is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking only peaceful.
GodAllahYHWH is All-Knowing; one should invariably give Claim and Reason on all important issues from one’s Revealed Book; one shouldn’t try putting one’s own words into God’s mouth.
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The threads are more for us, so that we can read and learn to give a response to the JW when they come a knocking at our door step.

1 Peter 3:15
Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence;
 
Matthew 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Luke 4:34
Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

John 5:18-19 (King James Version)

18Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, **but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. **

19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

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