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pr35120
Guest
someone told me they were in the holucost.is their any truth in that.if not,set me straight.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
The JWs have always been relatively small, but they could have had a few people in Germany at the time. So while it might be historically accurate to say JWs were killed off, the truth is it had to be a small number, like about 3. They like to say “JWs were persecuted by Hitler” to give themselves some “martyr status points,” but they had to have been the smallest of all the groups persecuted, even below the Trekkies.
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Hesychios
Guest
Yes they were a targeted group. There were JW’s in Germany and Poland before concentration camps were opened. There were a lot less after the war.
They were few in number then, but more than three. I really don’t think anyone knows how many were involved at the time of Hitler’s final solution (they kept good records but those may be lost). They are a considerable number these days, several thousands (or tens of thousands) in each country of Europe now.
They were few in number then, but more than three. I really don’t think anyone knows how many were involved at the time of Hitler’s final solution (they kept good records but those may be lost). They are a considerable number these days, several thousands (or tens of thousands) in each country of Europe now.
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survive
Guest
Every religious group was persecuted, by and large, if it stuck to its own religious doctrine and practices, since Hitler tolerated only one belief system: the one he invented, which revolved around himself and mashed Norse paganism together with scraps of Hinduism and enough Christian-sounding elements to make it slightly easier to camouflage in the beginning. Therefore, every individual member of any already-existing religion was forced to choose between death and gradual conversion to Hitler’s made-up religion of himself. The JWs would never change their doctrine to suit the political climate, since their refusal to engage in politics is largely based on a distrust of politicians in general and a fear of being deceived by them, so of course all of them were persecuted, whereas many other groups had members who chose to stay what they were and other members who tried a compromise. The compromisers were mostly attacked anyway after reaching a point beyond which they just couldn’t compromise further.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
The point of me mentioning “3” is that they were an extreme minority yet they use this as a “selling point” both for encouraging their members and when “advertising” to potential victims.
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BibleSteve
Guest
Here’s the info about JW’s from the United States Holocaust Museum:
holocaust-trc.org/Jehovah.htm
Here’s a teacher’s guide to JW’s and the Holocaust:
fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/PEOPLE/VictJeho.htm
Here’s the info from Wikipedia:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses
"Jehovah’s Witnesses in Germany were persecuted between 1933 and 1945. They were scorned by the name Ernste Bibelforscher (Earnest Bible Students) at that time, all lost their employment. Because Jehovah’s Witnesses would not give allegiance to the Nazi party, and refused to serve in the military, they were detained, put in concentration camps, or imprisoned during the Holocaust. Unlike Jews, homosexuals and Gypsies who were persecuted for racial, political and social reasons, Jehovah’s Witnesses were persecuted on religious ideological grounds. The Nazi government gave detained Jehovah’s Witnesses the option if they were to renounce their faith, submit to the state authority, and support the German military they would be free to leave prison or the camps but very few agreed. Approximately 12,000[5] Jehovah’s Witnesses were sent to concentration camps where they were forced to wear a purple triangle that specifically identified them as Jehovah’s Witnesses. In the end, according to Jehovah’s witnesses about 2,000 of their members who were incarcerated perished under the Nazi system.[6]
The Holocaust Resource Center and Archives even puts an estimate of between 2500 and 5000. [7] Accordingly, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum pamphlet titled “Jehovah’s Witnesses” states that “an estimated 2,500 to 5,000 Witnesses died in the camps or prisons. More than 200 men were tried by the German War Court and executed for refusing military service” [1]."
holocaust-trc.org/Jehovah.htm
Here’s a teacher’s guide to JW’s and the Holocaust:
fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/PEOPLE/VictJeho.htm
Here’s the info from Wikipedia:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses
"Jehovah’s Witnesses in Germany were persecuted between 1933 and 1945. They were scorned by the name Ernste Bibelforscher (Earnest Bible Students) at that time, all lost their employment. Because Jehovah’s Witnesses would not give allegiance to the Nazi party, and refused to serve in the military, they were detained, put in concentration camps, or imprisoned during the Holocaust. Unlike Jews, homosexuals and Gypsies who were persecuted for racial, political and social reasons, Jehovah’s Witnesses were persecuted on religious ideological grounds. The Nazi government gave detained Jehovah’s Witnesses the option if they were to renounce their faith, submit to the state authority, and support the German military they would be free to leave prison or the camps but very few agreed. Approximately 12,000[5] Jehovah’s Witnesses were sent to concentration camps where they were forced to wear a purple triangle that specifically identified them as Jehovah’s Witnesses. In the end, according to Jehovah’s witnesses about 2,000 of their members who were incarcerated perished under the Nazi system.[6]
The Holocaust Resource Center and Archives even puts an estimate of between 2500 and 5000. [7] Accordingly, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum pamphlet titled “Jehovah’s Witnesses” states that “an estimated 2,500 to 5,000 Witnesses died in the camps or prisons. More than 200 men were tried by the German War Court and executed for refusing military service” [1]."
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Regardless
Guest
And a good selling point i guess.
A workmate of mine, whenever religion or God comes up, always retorts: “All the wars in history have been caused by religion! In WW2 people of the same religion were killing each other because they came from different countries! Etc etc…”
I guess the witnesses can say: “We didn’t.”
I wonder what stand Jesus would have taken if he had been in Germany in 1939.
Would he have joined the german army and sworn allegience to Hitler?
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
Your workmate is presenting a flawed argument. The number of JWs killed is insignificant compared to the larger groups persecuted, so it’s terribly misleading for them to to play the martyr card. Second, it was not a religious war, the Church condemned it. Lastly, not all wars have been caused by religion, in fact most of the lives lost in the last 100 years (when more lives in history were lost) was due to the political removal of religion, especially Christianity.
Another false argument. Joining the army and being Christian are not mutually exclusive, though the JWs teach it is. The Biblical truth is John the Baptist never told the soldiers who came to him to stop being soldiers, nor did Jesus tell Centurion (army captain) to stop, nor did Peter tell Cornilius (another general) that what he was doing was wrong or to stop. I would say most german soldiers were unaware of the genocide, so it would only have really been a problem if they knew such injustice was going on but refused to step down.
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Bill_Pick
Guest
as a child was Hitler a cathloic i think i read this some place
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Catholic_Dude
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Born Catholic and growing up affirming and living the faith as an adult are two very different things.
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Bill_Pick
Guest
YES, I understand that,do you know for a fact if Hilter was a cathloic as a small boy… and thank you for helping me understand the diff about growing up and living the faith,
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Among_Strangers
Guest
I was raised a JW and I remember a JW Year Book (they publish one each year, or at least did back when I was in) that focused on personal stories from JW’s that were persecuted by the Nazi’s in WW2. That would have been the 1972-75 Year Book time frame if I am remembering right. My folks would read it to my brother and I and we would all cry. I mean the stories are just horrific as you can imagine. Though I never believed JW doctrine growing up I did not think the stories of personal accounts were manufactured. I have no proof either way of course, just the sense I had living in that life at the time.
If there are current JW’s that visit here maybe they can back up my Year Book thing or give the correct data of the publication and if it’s readable on line post the URL. I mean if you wanted to and all.
If there are current JW’s that visit here maybe they can back up my Year Book thing or give the correct data of the publication and if it’s readable on line post the URL. I mean if you wanted to and all.
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Erich
Guest
Well, he was born in Austria, where a significant percentage of the population was (and still is) at least “culturally Catholic”. His parents are buried in the graveyard of St. Michael’s, in Leonding.
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jw2lds2catholic
Guest
For what its worth - back when i was a JW they loved playing the persecution card with the concentration camps showing pictures and such in magazines and books. I also remember pictures of Hilter and Pope (or bishops- can’t remember whom) shaking hands as a sign that the Catholic Church is indeed the whore of Babylon. It took a loooong time to release the anti-Catholic sentiment to even consider coming Home to the Church. But I am soooo glad I’m here now - Thanks be to God!
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Regardless
Guest
I’m sorry, are you implying Jesus would have joined the German army and sworn allegience to Hitler if he were in Germany in 1940?
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
Not at all.
My point is Scripture is extremely clear Christians in good standing were also soldiers, so there is nothing automatically problematic with being both a Christian and in the army. The JWs on the other hand do teach such a thing is contrary to Scripture and in fact incompatible with being a Christian.
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Regardless
Guest
I disagree.
Historians show the early Christians would not serve in the army, (I have quoted some below) and soldiers who became Christians did not remain in military service. As would surely have been the case with Cornelius and the un-named Centurion Jesus helped (assuming he was later baptised as a Christian)
Your quote of the Christian refered to as a “fellow soldier” must be figurative. he would have no more been a literal soldier than Paul was who called him such.
The spiritual armour in Ephesians is also figurtive as we see in the intro at Eph 6:12. “We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against… spiritual darkness.”
Jesus said: “A new command i give you, that ye love one another… By this shall all men know ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” (John 13:33,34)
Imagine if Chrisitans had gone to war in WW2. They would have killed other followers of Jesus! Hardly the remarkable love Jesus prophesied his followers would show each other.
“A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.” (The Rise of Christianity, by E.W. Barnes)
“It will be seen presently that the evidence for the existence of a single Christian soldier between 60 and about 165A.D. is exceedingly slight; ... up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least, no Christian would become a soldier after his baptism.” (The Early Church and the World, by C.J. Cadoux)
“The behavior of the Christians was very different from that of the Romans.... Since Christ had preached peace, they refused to become soldiers.” (Our World Through the Ages, by N.Platt and M.J. Drummond, 1961, p. 125)
“While they [the Christians] inculcated the maxims of passive obedience, they refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire.... It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon, Vol. I, p. 416.
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Regardless
Guest
And remember what jesus reply was to Pilate when he asked if jesus was a king:
“My Kingdom is no part of this world. If it was, my attendants would have fought…” (John 18:36)
If Christians weren’t to fight, even to defend the son of God, would we expect them to fight for whichever worldly kingdom an accident of geography drops them in?
“My Kingdom is no part of this world. If it was, my attendants would have fought…” (John 18:36)
If Christians weren’t to fight, even to defend the son of God, would we expect them to fight for whichever worldly kingdom an accident of geography drops them in?
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Bill_Pick
Guest
Regarless, Welcome to the board and hope you enjoy it here,can I please ask you one question,Are you a Christian or are you a Jw…your profile does not say so I was just asking,well enjoy and have a great day and may Our Lord bless you.
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Among_Strangers
Guest
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