Jehovah's Witness: Does the Watchtower still teach the 1914 generation slogan: Millions Now Living Will Never Die?

[JeanneH]

I wished I remembered which one, but one of the Watchtower published books from I think the mid-20th Century - went into great detail about our mass deaths and how they will have to clean up the mess and all the work it will take.

Keep in mind, they’d have to remove our dead stinky bodies (keep in mind, there are billions of us who will be killed in Armageden but only about a million of so of them left on earth each Witness will have to average removal and burial of at least 6,000 people!!! - not to mention all the animals: cows, horses, cats, dogs that will also have to be disposed of since most of them will die from hunger since there won’t be enough JWs left to care for them all), rebuild the destroyed houses and buildings, also keep in mind that they will also have to farm the land and make food from scratch since the food industry will be wiped out & what is left in groceries stores not damaged by Armageden will not last long, no one will be able to convert oil into usable gasoline,
the cars all over the roads will have to be moved & dumped somewhere, no one will be left to run the electricity power sources…didn’t sound like much of a paradise to me!!! And to top it all off…no twinkies - what a shame!:tsktsk:

I spoke with my JW friend and if I understood correctly, all the people that are NOT JW’s will just vanish , the animals will remain along with every thing else. There will be no big destruction but a transformation.
I just thought I would pass this along.

 

[Javl]

I spoke with my JW friend and if I understood correctly, all the people that are NOT JW’s will just vanish , the animals will remain along with every thing else. There will be no big destruction but a transformation.
I just thought I would pass this along.

Yes. This what they teach. All non-JWs will be anhillated and there will be a 1000 year peace. Only the 144,000 elect will go to heaven to rule with God.

PAX DOMINI signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem

 

[jmcrae]

Are there even 1 million (let alone millions) of people who were born in 1914 or earlier that are even still living? We’re talking they’d have to be at least 96+ years old.

According to the Canadian Census in 2006, there were 279,728 people still living who had been born prior to 1914. So, world wide, it is still possible right now for there to be a million people or more alive who were alive in 1914.

However, that situation isn’t going to last very long, since as you say, they are at least 95 years old, right now, and it is extremely rare for people to live past 100 years of age.

 

[dianaiad]

Much of what he had said about the LDS and JWs, etc. have come from ex-members of these organizations. I guess then that the ex-members knew nothing either and were
phonies?

Much of what he said about Catholicism comes from ex-Catholics, too. Ex members of any faith CANNOT be trusted for an objective presentation of that faith. Not possible. A true scholar of any faith would ask the true believers, not ex-members.

There are many books available about the inner workings, etc, about these organizations which can be presented. I guess that they also are a lot of hokum? I also
know about Dr. Martin’s being anti-Catholic, that comes naturally with Baptists, of which he was one, but as he learned about Catholicism, his opinions changed.

As far as his degree went, yes, I know about that, but it was accepted as such by other scholars.

WHAT other scholars have accepted it? Anybody who wasn’t tied to his organization through religious beliefs or money?

(thinking) why, no, actually.He is recognized by his fellow counter cult evangelists, but not by any recognized or reputable comparitive religious scholar.

I think that should be enough to make it legitimate

No, legitimacy would make it legitimate, and…it’s not. The man never wrote a dissertation, for crying out loud!

. Even so, his writings are
still fairly accurate and are widely used for reference.

Well, gee, “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” were widely used for references, too. That doesn’t make either it, OR Walter Martin, worth referencing…Walter Martin is not used as an authoritative source of information about Mormonism by any reputable scholar. When his work IS used, it is used with disclaimers…or by people who do not pretend to objectivity. The man’s work is off base, inaccurate and agenda ridden. The only honest thing about the man was that he never pretended that it was not.

As I have said in a previous post, I have studied with the JWs and over the years have learned quite a bit about them. Comparing what I know with what Dr. Martin has written proves, to me and others, that he was accurate in his assesments and writings.

My sincere apologies if I have sounded insulting, I do not mean to be, or do, so, but the truth is the truth.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Y’know, if the truth isn’t enough to defeat one’s opponent, then perhaps one should take another look at that opponent; perhaps one shouldn’t be trying to hard to defeat him.

As I stated, I really don’t know what Martin has to say about the Jehovah’s Witnesses…but if what he has to say about them marches with what you have learned FROM them, why are you bothering with him at all? You have the primary sources—something which, by the way, Martin avoided using at all costs.

 

[Javl]

Much of what he said about Catholicism comes from ex-Catholics, too. Ex members of any faith CANNOT be trusted for an objective presentation of that faith. Not possible. A true scholar of any faith would ask the true believers, not ex-members.

WHAT other scholars have accepted it? Anybody who wasn’t tied to his organization through religious beliefs or money?

(thinking) why, no, actually.He is recognized by his fellow counter cult evangelists, but not by any recognized or reputable comparitive religious scholar.

No, legitimacy would make it legitimate, and…it’s not. The man never wrote a dissertation, for crying out loud!

Well, gee, “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” were widely used for references, too. That doesn’t make either it, OR Walter Martin, worth referencing…Walter Martin is not used as an authoritative source of information about Mormonism by any reputable scholar. When his work IS used, it is used with disclaimers…or by people who do not pretend to objectivity. The man’s work is off base, inaccurate and agenda ridden. The only honest thing about the man was that he never pretended that it was not.

Y’know, if the truth isn’t enough to defeat one’s opponent, then perhaps one should take another look at that opponent; perhaps one shouldn’t be trying to hard to defeat him.

As I stated, I really don’t know what Martin has to say about the Jehovah’s Witnesses…but if what he has to say about them marches with what you have learned FROM them, why are you bothering with him at all? You have the primary sources—something which, by the way, Martin avoided using at all costs.

Your points are noted. If Dr. Martin has agreed with what I have learned about the JWs,
then he can’t be too far wrong about Mormonism, or other cults, regardless of what
you say. There has to be truth in there. He makes many valid points, so I’ll still accept his writings, as will and do many others.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[PaulDupre]

I’m gonna take a wild stab in the dark and assume that he didn’t have nice things to say about the LDS?

He told the truth about the LDS. That’s why they villify him, like they villify anyone who tells the truth.

 

[Javl]

He told the truth about the LDS. That’s why they villify him, like they villify anyone who tells the truth.

Amen!

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[dianaiad]

He told the truth about the LDS. That’s why they villify him, like they villify anyone who tells the truth.

You mean…like the way he had some of the simplest facts wrong, and refused to correct them until the end of his life?

Like insisting that LDS wards were run by a Bishop and two ‘assistants’ and were further divided into ‘blocks,’ which were run by other assistants?

The man wasn’t right about much of anything, and used such abusive and insulting language that any claim of objectivity is disproven in almost every sentence.

 

[dianaiad]

Amen!

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

And of course, Walter Martin of the fake PhD knows more about Mormonism than the Mormon?

Of course.

…yet if I had the nerve to claim that Jack Chick or CARM or CRI knew more about Catholicism than the Catholics, and actually insisted upon that to CATHOLICS in here, I would (and rightly so) be laughed right off the forum.

 

[Javl]

And of course, Walter Martin of the fake PhD knows more about Mormonism than the Mormon?

Of course.

…yet if I had the nerve to claim that Jack Chick or CARM or CRI knew more about Catholicism than the Catholics, and actually insisted upon that to CATHOLICS in here, I would (and rightly so) be laughed right off the forum.

Yes, you have a point there, but I have read other works by other authors whose observations coincide with Martin’s ( and they did not copy his works ). I guess they also are wrong? I say this in all charity, I cannot accept believe, and follow anyone who claims
to have received a revelation from God in the manner that Joseph Smith did, and knowing his background. To do such is to negate and abrogate the statements of Jesus Christ.
In all truth, you are following a man made religion and rejecting the true and absolute teachings of Jesus Christ.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[1believer1]

The only thing a Catholic (or anyone else) needs to witness to someone else is a solid foundation in his OWN faith.

I agree that everyone should have a good formation in the Catholic faith and from that they will be better able to share information with others. The book from Jason Evert is helpful since it points out areas that will come up on a regular basis and we as Catholics have always welcomed the help of those who go before us. We ride on the backs of the Apostles and the early church Fathers and those who spend the time to research areas that we may not have time to research. Those that study the Catholic faith with an open mind and allow the Scripture to fill their mind and open their hearts to the Holy Spirit will understand that this church continues from its beginning when Jesus handed the keys of the Kingdom to Peter.

 

[dianaiad]

Yes, you have a point there, but I have read other works by other authors whose observations coincide with Martin’s ( and they did not copy his works ). I guess they also are wrong? I say this in all charity, I cannot accept believe, and follow anyone who claims
to have received a revelation from God in the manner that Joseph Smith did, and knowing his background. To do such is to negate and abrogate the statements of Jesus Christ.
In all truth, you are following a man made religion and rejecting the true and absolute teachings of Jesus Christ.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

If you cannot, you cannot. All I ask is that you get your information about our beliefs from US, not those who have an agenda to destroy us. They have NO reason to tell the truth, or present our beliefs in an objective manner, and every reason not to.

Whereas a True Believer (of any religion) has little reason to lie about his or her beliefs (I mean, if they do…it WILL come back to bite them later.) and you already know that those beliefs will be presented in the most postive way possible; the bias is known. You have no way of knowing when, or how the Martins in the world will twist or decieve.

As to a bunch of them agreeing with each other? Of course they do. They all have the same agenda. The question you need to ask is not whether they agree with each other about what our beliefs are. The question is, do they agree with what the BELIEVERS say their beliefs are.

Because at the last, it is that which counts. Believers believe what they say they do, not what someone else says they do.

I know, for instance, that this same group all agree that Catholics worship Mary, and worship statues. “Idol worshipers.” Yet Catholics do not worship Mary, though they esteem her above all other women, they worship only what they see as the triune God. While they use all the statues as symbols of their beliefs, they do not worship the symbols.

So…does it matter what other people all agree to, if it is wrong?

 

[dianaiad]

He told the truth about the LDS. That’s why they villify him, like they villify anyone who tells the truth.

Paul, I ‘vilify’ him because he lies. I mention that his degrees are illegitimate because they are illegitimate. I wouldn’t bother, except that he used those fake degrees to bolster his credibility. If he used them for that purpose, then it is entirely appropriate to mention that they are, in truth, fake.

His doctorate is fake…and his masters, though barely legitimate, is also problematic. The man was a far bigger fraud than he accuses Joseph Smith of being.

 

[Javl]

If you cannot, you cannot. All I ask is that you get your information about our beliefs from US, not those who have an agenda to destroy us. They have NO reason to tell the truth, or present our beliefs in an objective manner, and every reason not to.

Whereas a True Believer (of any religion) has little reason to lie about his or her beliefs (I mean, if they do…it WILL come back to bite them later.) and you already know that those beliefs will be presented in the most postive way possible; the bias is known. You have no way of knowing when, or how the Martins in the world will twist or decieve.

As to a bunch of them agreeing with each other? Of course they do. They all have the same agenda. The question you need to ask is not whether they agree with each other about what our beliefs are. The question is, do they agree with what the BELIEVERS say their beliefs are.

Because at the last, it is that which counts. Believers believe what they say they do, not what someone else says they do.

I know, for instance, that this same group all agree that Catholics worship Mary, and worship statues. “Idol worshipers.” Yet Catholics do not worship Mary, though they esteem her above all other women, they worship only what they see as the triune God. While they use all the statues as symbols of their beliefs, they do not worship the symbols.

So…does it matter what other people all agree to, if it is wrong?

You have made your point and I cede to you I will no longer use him as a reference. I
have not questioned your beliefs, those I respect, but I do question why, as much as I have been asked why I believe what I do.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[yellowbird]

Who cares about Dr. Martin? He is just one guy.

There is a moutain of evidence that the JWs have changed their theology throughout the years … “light gets brighter” is what they call it.

Since the generation born prior to the events of 1914 HAVE passed away, despite their prophecies to the contrary, they have changed the definition of the word “generation.” (bright lights)

Regarding the Millions Now Living Will Never Die, This is a quote from “Judge” (not really) Rutherford, the President of the Watchtower :

*As we have heretofore stated, the great jubilee cycle is due to begin in 1925. At that time the earthly phase of the kingdom shall be recognized… Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old,… *

Prophecy Failed.

And THIS I love! It’s from an advertisement for the Millions booklet that appeared on the back page of several Golden Age magazines:

*Do these things appeal to you? Unending human life; perpetual health;… no more fear of the landlord, the doctor, the sheriff, the employer, of evil men and angels, of vicious animals, of dependent old age; no more blindness, lameness, deafness, dumbness; no more bald heads, glass eyes, false teeth, or wooden legs; no more sickness, disease, or pestilence; no more ignorance or superstition; no more sorrow; no more tears!

No, we are not trifling: these things and more are absolutely sure, because promised by the Word of God. The world has already ended,… earth’s times of restitution, its springtime, begins to count in 1926.

When that times comes, all the above blessings will not come instantaneously, but will come speedily on those who live through the next five or six years of trouble."*

I love it. No more baldness. Apparently God would prefer we all have a full head of hair?

Regarding those who die at the Battle of Armegeddon: JWs teach that it won’t be a major clean up effort on their part since the birds will eat all the flesh off our bones.

True story.

 

[PaulDupre]

Dianaiad:

All I ask is that you get your information about our beliefs from US, not those who have an agenda to destroy us.

The reason people go to non-Mormon sources is that Mormons lie about they believe and teach. Mormon.org and LDS.org conveniently leave out all the parts of Mormonism that would give people reason not to join. The missionaries likewise deceive, mislead and withhold information. The Mormons on these fora also deny, obfiscate and mislead about the challenging doctrines of Mormonism. Thanks to the internet, this is now widely known.

People want facts. What they get from Mormons is a sales pitch. And the Mormons think we “gentiles” are so stupid and “darkened in our intellects” that we won’t catch on.

The reason people don’t come to Mormon sources for Mormon answers is that you have destroyed your credibility. No one is confident that you will tell the truth, because you usually don’t. Once you have shown yourself to be deceitful, it is very difficult to re-establish trust.

The word is out: Mormons lie. So why would anyone go to you for the truth?

 

[dianaiad]

You have made your point and I cede to you I will no longer use him as a reference. I
have not questioned your beliefs, those I respect, but I do question why, as much as I have been asked why I believe what I do.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

You SHOULD ask why. IT’s good for us. An unexamined faith is generally not a strong one, y’know. However, it’s always a good idea to make sure you ask why we believe things we actually do believe.

If only because it saves so much time.

 

[dianaiad]

The reason people go to non-Mormon sources is that Mormons lie about they believe and teach. Mormon.org and LDS.org conveniently leave out all the parts of Mormonism that would give people reason not to join. The missionaries likewise deceive, mislead and withhold information. The Mormons on these fora also deny, obfiscate and mislead about the challenging doctrines of Mormonism. Thanks to the internet, this is now widely known.

People want facts. What they get from Mormons is a sales pitch. And the Mormons think we “gentiles” are so stupid and “darkened in our intellects” that we won’t catch on.

The reason people don’t come to Mormon sources for Mormon answers is that you have destroyed your credibility. No one is confident that you will tell the truth, because you usually don’t. Once you have shown yourself to be deceitful, it is very difficult to re-establish trust.

The word is out: Mormons lie. So why would anyone go to you for the truth?

Thank you, Paul for so completely proving MY point.

 

[Javl]

Who cares about Dr. Martin? He is just one guy.

There is a moutain of evidence that the JWs have changed their theology throughout the years … “light gets brighter” is what they call it.

Since the generation born prior to the events of 1914 HAVE passed away, despite their prophecies to the contrary, they have changed the definition of the word “generation.” (bright lights)

Regarding the Millions Now Living Will Never Die, This is a quote from “Judge” (not really) Rutherford, the President of the Watchtower :

*As we have heretofore stated, the great jubilee cycle is due to begin in 1925. At that time the earthly phase of the kingdom shall be recognized… Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old,… *

Prophecy Failed.

And THIS I love! It’s from an advertisement for the Millions booklet that appeared on the back page of several Golden Age magazines:

*Do these things appeal to you? Unending human life; perpetual health;… no more fear of the landlord, the doctor, the sheriff, the employer, of evil men and angels, of vicious animals, of dependent old age; no more blindness, lameness, deafness, dumbness; no more bald heads, glass eyes, false teeth, or wooden legs; no more sickness, disease, or pestilence; no more ignorance or superstition; no more sorrow; no more tears!

No, we are not trifling: these things and more are absolutely sure, because promised by the Word of God. The world has already ended,… earth’s times of restitution, its springtime, begins to count in 1926.

When that times comes, all the above blessings will not come instantaneously, but will come speedily on those who live through the next five or six years of trouble."*

I love it. No more baldness. Apparently God would prefer we all have a full head of hair?

Regarding those who die at the Battle of Armegeddon: JWs teach that it won’t be a major clean up effort on their part since the birds will eat all the flesh off our bones.

True story.

There is so much more than what you have posted. The WatchTower Bible and Tract
Society ( jehovahs Witnesses ) have predicted the end no less than a dozen times.
Each time it has been proven false. At one time in the 1970s they were so sure that
the end was near that many JWs sold everything they had and gave their funds
to the WBTS, since they were “God’s earthly organization”. When the end failed to
come, these people were all left without a home or any possesions, The WBTS
refused to help them since all the monies were donated to God!. And the WBTS
has the nerve to call us money grubbing organizations! There are many stories
such as this, and yet too many people fall prey to their propaganda. Believe it or
not, the majority of today’s JWs, throughout the world, are fallen away Catholics.
Many of those that consider themselves Cathoilic are weak in the faith. They have
either not bothered to learn about their faith ( ? ) or just plain refused to. It is these
people that are the favorite targets of the WBTS.

The WBTS calls all organized religions “money grubbing, God dis-honoring organizations
who are doing the work of the devil”. Their favorite target is the Catholic Church. To
me, this proves that IT is a work of the devil and IT is one of his ways to try to destroy
Jesus’ Church and works. What other proof is needed?

Let us all pray for the poor souls who have been led astray by the WBTS and pray
that they awaken soon and repent of their error and return home.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

Please get back on hte subject of the thread which is Jehovah’s Witnesses.