Y
Yerusalyim
Guest
I’ve not met a truly happy JW in my life.
- Status
F
Fidei
Guest
If Christ is God–He cannot be created because he is omnipotent, triune and everlasting. -Church catechism
yet theses verses say that THROUGH him (not BY him) all things were created–so Christ being an exalted CREATURE (not God himself) would still be plausible for the JW’s, right??.
How to refute JW claims that Christ is created rather than creator??
J
Javl
Guest
John 1:1-3 can be used to refute the claim. JWs accept that Jesus is the Word ( although a god and not God ). According to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society ( WTBS; JW parent organization ) Jesus is the first creation of God. Now, if according to John, all things were made by the Word ( Jesus ) and nothing was made that the Word didn’t make, then how could Jesus have made Himself? The JW will attempt to explain one way or another, but their attempts are really weak and useless rhetoric. No matter how liberal an interpretation of John 1:1-3, explanation of this paradox is of no use. Also, Isaiah 44:24 proves that Jesus IS God and not a god.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
L
Lucas3
Guest
But ultimately this comes down to an argument of “By whose authority do you do these things?”
For a JW, or indeed a Protestant, they’re relying on the assumption that their understanding of Scripture is correct. (Even if the version being used is corrupted, or uses archaic language).
For a Catholic, it’s a central belief that Truth and its interpretation has been preserved.
End of.
For a JW, or indeed a Protestant, they’re relying on the assumption that their understanding of Scripture is correct. (Even if the version being used is corrupted, or uses archaic language).
For a Catholic, it’s a central belief that Truth and its interpretation has been preserved.
End of.
J
jw2lds2catholic
Guest
It was llike belonging to a club at school. All the time you attending meetings (not services, not worship, not fellowship, but meetings) at the Kingdom hall every week. Sundays mornings was two hours:
one for the public talk where an elder or ministerial servant gave a 45-50 minute talk on a topic - supposedly to garner interest in bible studies for visitors. I hear that this meeting has been shortened.
The second hour is to study the WatchTower magazine article. A paragraph was read from the podium and preprinted questions were asked. A microphone was held so that audience members could raise their hands and answer the questions when the microphone was passed to them. Most of the time is was a simple regurgitation of what the WatchTower paragraph stated with maybe an additional comment or two.
Both of these meetings were bracketed by a freeform prayer and a song from the standard hymnal accompanied by a tape recording (probably CD now). No organ, piano or choir. Just karaoke to a tape.
After these meetings you could chat with friends or go into ‘field service’ where you knock on doors.
Tuesday we met in private homes for Book Study though I believe now these studies are at the Kingdom for liabilities issues. There we studied a chapter predisignated by the Governing Body in Brooklyn where the pattern of read paragraph and answer preprinted questions with scriptures was repeated in a smaller group of about 20-30 people for about an hour.
Thursday nights was Theocratic Ministry School and some other meeting that i can’t recall the name of right now. The School meeting was were a couple of members praticed their door to door or bible study skills and gave presentations on topics that the audience could then learn from and use in their ministry. You were graded on your presentation and worked you way through a textbook. Additiionally there was a monthly flyer that cover tips for field service that was paragraph/answer in format. The second meeting was a bible study where members are to read the a bible book (assigned chapters) and go over in the meeting in the familiar paragraph/anser pattern in a WatchTower commentary on the bible.
These meetings were also bookended with prayer and the sing-along tapes.
Sounds a lot like school, huh? It was all study, prepare, take notes, lectures, question and answers even with grades! No spirituality, no pouring your heart to Jehovah, no silence… no joy.
There were also other larger gatherings
- circuit assembly days for 1 day two times a year where several local congregations meet for about 5-6 hours of talks. this is where baptisms would take place.
- District assemblys - multi-day affairs (usually 3-4) where you sit and listen to talks for 5-6 hours a day with tape recorded songs played again to break up the monotony. The highlight was the drama. Here actors would pantamine and lipsynch to a prerecorded soundtrack to portray a 15-20 minute story with a moral of how good Jehovah and his orgranization is complete with sets and costumes. Everybody LOVED the dramas.
Finally is the ONLY holiday JWs celebrate - the Memorial - held around Easter which was a solem affair where the ladies superly dressed up. Several congregations meet together to listen to a talk and pass the emblems (bread & wine) through the audience. No one partakes since you must be of the heavenly class to do so.
At home, you were to spend time daily reading the daily devotional published by the watchtower usually a verse followed by brief commentary, study the watchTower article and texts before the all the meetings that use them AND do additional personal study. Prayer was also emphasized but not really as devotions.
And of course, you had field service. You arrived at the kingdom hall at 9am (I was aux pioneer doing 60 hours a month), had a brief spitirual message and then were assigned to groups of cars (as many as they could hold) in pairs. All pioneeers have assigned territory cards that they are to work and you drove their and pounded the pavement looking for people who might take a magazine and be potential bible studies. You marked every house on the territory card with their response.
Fellowship occurred around meetings and field service. If you did not go to these activities your social life was severely limited as you are not fraternize with non-members outside trying to convert them and if you didn’t act like a good JW you rarely got invites to the few and far between private social events.
Again, where is the joy?
“All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy”
Can’t speak for other JWs, but why I stayed was the sense of belonging to God’s organization and that we were right. They could prove everything from the Bible (in twisted ways sometimes, but by golly you could get there) and they hooked with the Trinity issue. If there was no trinity (and I truly believed for decades that they wasn’t one), then JW had cornered the market on being the ‘Truth’. That’s why you put up with the rigorous schedule - because it was correct teaching. Hope that made sense. After a while (about 4 years) it got boring and I looked for kinks in the armour that would permit me to leave. Holidays and worship lured me away from the monotony of service and meetings.
Sorry so long. Just felt like typing
thanks for reading.
A
adstrinity
Guest
Thanks for sharing, jw2lds2catholic. I have a cousin about 2 hours away who really seems to enjoy her faith (she’s a JW). She’s even asked to borrow, while she was visiting here, a few of my Bibles (one of them was a children’s Catholic Bible).
R
raffo
Guest
That’s because they believe that they don’t have a soul. Next, with millions of JWs, who are the chosen 144,000 amongst them.
J
Javl
Guest
jw2lds2catholic:
I also thank you for sharing. I’ve always tried to get across to JWs their lack of true worship in their “services”, and their lack of true joy in spreading the Word of God. When I had “studied” with them, there was no feeling of joy over the Word in our sessions. It also seemed that what they were doing was boring and strictly by rote. Oh, well.
May I ask you a couple of questions?
PAX DOMINI :signofcrioss:
Shalom Aleichem
I also thank you for sharing. I’ve always tried to get across to JWs their lack of true worship in their “services”, and their lack of true joy in spreading the Word of God. When I had “studied” with them, there was no feeling of joy over the Word in our sessions. It also seemed that what they were doing was boring and strictly by rote. Oh, well.
May I ask you a couple of questions?
- Is it true that if you don’t put in your time in door to door “witnessing”, or keep an accurate record, that you are severely reprimanded ( and/or punished )?
- I notice that you also joined the Mormons. May I ask why you left them and came to the Catholic Church instead of one of the other Protestant or Orthodox Churches?
PAX DOMINI :signofcrioss:
Shalom Aleichem
T
T_More
Guest
Very recently, I acquired a WTS bible PRE-NWT. It’s an American Standard published by them. It’s amazing comparing the differences between the two. John 1 is translated the way it’s supposed to be, so it’s no wonder they had to eventually re-translate a new version.
I have found that JW’s, after seeing them myself for years, will switch to another subject when they’re cornered. One that seems to really stumble them is using they’re own NWT and read John 1. They generally acknowledge that Christ is a little god, not the Almighty God. When that is established, when Isaiah 44 is then referenced, it is quite difficult for them to explain that away. Been there, done that myself.
Another one is John 2. “Destroy this temple, and in three days, I will make it rise again.” Very difficult for them to explain this verse.
I have found that JW’s, after seeing them myself for years, will switch to another subject when they’re cornered. One that seems to really stumble them is using they’re own NWT and read John 1. They generally acknowledge that Christ is a little god, not the Almighty God. When that is established, when Isaiah 44 is then referenced, it is quite difficult for them to explain that away. Been there, done that myself.
Another one is John 2. “Destroy this temple, and in three days, I will make it rise again.” Very difficult for them to explain this verse.
S
Shin
Guest
That Wiki has a lot of resources.
I knew the JW life was regimented but it’s different reading about it described like that!
J
Javl
Guest
Yes, I agree with your assessment. I praise and thank God that you have decided to leave them. I do pray that you do enter in full communion with the Catholic Church, whether Western or Eastern Rite, for The Catholic Church is where the fullnes of truth, as given By Jesus and preached by Him and the Apostles, does reside.
As for Jesus being only a Mighty God and not Almighty God, I find that the JWs also stumble and fall over Isiah 9:6 and 10:21.
I ususaly present them with this:
Isaiah says, in Isaiah 9:6, “A child is born to us…He will be called…Mighty God…”.
This is understood by all to refer to Jesus. “But”, says the WBTS, even though it pertains to Jesus, he may be a mighty god but he is not Almighty God!". If this is so, then why is the God of Israel called a “Mighty God” in Isaiah 10:21, since Israel worships only the one true God? And, also Isaiah 17:7 says that “…people will turn for help to their Creator, the holy God of Israel”. In Isaiah 43:15 God also says “I am the Lord, your holy God. I created you Israel and I am your king”. Since the Creator is the Logos and Jesus is the Logos, He must be the holy Almighty God of Israel.
The answer I usually get “I’ll have to check into this and get back to you”. Of course I never hear anything from them.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
T
T_More
Guest
Thanks, Javl. I’m making progress in my research and in prayer. I want to make a full and complete commitment with no lingering issues left unaswered. I’m almost there! The next obvious step for me is to begin RCIA.
J
Javl
Guest
You will be in my prayers. If I may be of any help, please do not hesitate to contact me. God Bless and be with you in your endeavor.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
J
jw2lds2catholic
Guest
Sure, I’ll answer any questions
1 - It depends. To maintain publisher status (and be counted in the annual report) you need 2 hours of service monthly (this could have changed) - this could include giving bible studies to your children, talking on the phone with non-member relatives discussing in passing a biblical topic, or writing them letters sharing a message so knocking on doors is not the only method of ‘witnessing’.
Now, if you are aux or pioneer (now the req. number of hours have changed but in my day it was 60 for aux, 90 for pioneer and 140 for special pioneer, the latter two received a tiny stipend to cover their expenses.) If you failed to maintain your hours you could be dismissed from the program and lose status in the congregation.
If you missed any service time over a period of months, you would be considered in-active and should be expecting a visit from the elders inquiring as to your absence. This also includes missing meetings. You would not be disfellowshipped for missing meetings or service, but might be ‘dissassocitated’ and treated as a disfellowshipped person for shunning purposes becuase you are not living as a good JW should.
2 - I attend many other protestant denominations but was turned off of them because they belived in the trinity - a sticking point that remained long after I disassociated.
The LDS church, interesting enough, believe in a modified trinity which I could agree with (one in purpose as opposed to essence, etc) and since I lacked the spirituality and fellowship of the JWs, I found it in spades with LDS including the level of commitment and activity. Plus I LOVED the doctrine. But eventually I knew it was true regardless of how I wanted it to be.
I finally came home to Catholicism because it claims to be the church Christ himself started and His character would lead one to expect that he wouldn’t wait miliniunia (sp) to correct the wrong teachings of the past. God is the same , yesterday, today and tomorrow, therefore His Church and teachings would remain likewise.
Ask away. I have an interesting history and am happy to share.
J
Javl
Guest
jw2lds2catholic:
Thank you very much for your reply. Your answers to my questions are quite informative and very helpful. I’m very happy that the Holy Spirit led you to Jesus’ Church and that you listened to Him. Welcome home. I will also keep you in my prayers. God Bless.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
Thank you very much for your reply. Your answers to my questions are quite informative and very helpful. I’m very happy that the Holy Spirit led you to Jesus’ Church and that you listened to Him. Welcome home. I will also keep you in my prayers. God Bless.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
J
jw2lds2catholic
Guest
Any time, thanks.
D
Dokimas
Guest
Col 1:
16For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
J
JeanneH
Guest
Dokimas:
The Witnesses add (other) here and there in this verse. When I asked a Witness why “other” was added she said to make the verse easier to understand. Really? They will tell you that FIRST God created Jesus then Jesus made all OTHER things. They are hard nuts to crack.
Jeanne
D
Dokimas
Guest
Pray the Holy Spirit softens their hearts. On another thread (scriptural support for the Diety of our Lord ) there are lists of verses that reveals Jesus is God. If they come to that conclusion, believing He was and is the Creator is easy.
J
Javl
Guest
Yep. And they’ll also tell you that Jesus in His spiritual existence was originally Michael the Archangel ( shades of Seventh Day Adventists ).
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
P.S. Check my post #43.
- Status