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dshix
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This is exactly what I had in my mind when I made my first post in this thread. This is just one reason why this is a cause for concern, even when we don’t agree with those being persecuted.
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pacloc
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JWs are not just some “other” religion. Their views are poisonous, even to the people that they do not convert. Their forced evangelization makes their faulty beliefs not just a problem for the poor victims born into the religion, but for the whole society. Hidden within their façade of “true Christianity”, very ugly doctrines are slyly covered over until you are within the cult and are either forced to renounce all that you have chosen to believe or to learn to accept the strange doctrines by convincing yourself that they are not so bad. From what I see, the Orthodox Christian country of Russia is not blind to their “extreme beliefs” and is trying to stop this cancer before it is out of control. If JWs kept their apocalyptic doomsday doctrines to themselves and did not have such dangerous views on blood transfusions, pedophile protection, and complete shunning, I would agree it is too far to think that everyone should be Orthodox, even if it is the True Faith. But for now, I don’t think comparing them to other repressed groups is fair, just look up some of the stories of ex-jws to see the horror that this cult has put so many people through because of the issues I mentioned.
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jlhargus
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Not even logical or in the ball park as a match or history repeating itself. Offering sacrifice to the emperor is saying the emperor is one god among many gods and equal to any called god.Note the similarities of your comment with the following:
*“Under the reign of Emperor Decius, a decree was issued requiring public sacrifice, a formality equivalent to a testimonial of allegiance to the Emperor and the established order. Christians were often given opportunities to avoid further punishment by publicly offering sacrifices or by burning incense to Roman gods, and were accused by the Romans of impiety when they refused.” *
Just exchange “emperor” with “government”, and “sacrifice” with “service”, “won’t burn incense to Roman gods” with “heresy”.
- Wikipedia article on ‘Persecution of Early Christians.’
It is almost a match. Uncanny eh?Are we seeing history repeat itself?
*“A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you.” *- John 15:20
Government service isn’t even close to a match for a sacrifice to a god. Government service is a good when done, as God intended, for the common good of all.
[Rms14:1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.]
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jlhargus
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Banning or persecuting a non-violent group is never the answer. In my view the best way is teaching others the truth about false teachers and prophets with scripture and history.
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adf417
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Logically
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That is an excellent scripture!
Thanks Jlhargus.
Actually Jehovah’s Witness’ often use that very scripture to show they have to obey the government of the land. (incidentally, the NWT uses the word “tax” instead of custom)
So Jehovah’s Witnesses understand that to mean it is a Christian’s obligation to pay taxes, obey the law and show respect for the government and it’s representatives.
Jesus also showed this was right for Christians at Matthew 22:17-21. There, when his enemies tried to trap him he famously held up a coin and declared:** “Pay back Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.”**
And there we see a potential conflict:
What if something the government demands, compromises what God commands? What if the government orders you to do something you know God forbids?
For example: What would you do if the government ordered you to bear false witness about someone? Or if it told you to murder someone? Or if it ordered you to renounce Christ?
We have another Bible example of exactly this. At Acts 5:28 Jesus’ apostles are ordered by the authorities to stop preaching. (a direct conflict with Matthew 28:19,20) The apostles replied: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.” (Acts 5:29)
So putting these principles together, Jehovah’s Witnesses will obey the government in all things, unless it orders us to do something that conflicts with Jehovah’s instructions.
Do you agree with that conclusion?
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Logically
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And I like that comment too!
Yet that is often what gets us in trouble!
A well known example: Jehovah’s Witnesses were quickly banned by the Nazis in 1933 because they would not “heil Hitler” (which they viewed as blasphemy) or join the army. Nor would they quit preaching about God’s Kingdom as the highest power.
While there were individual from other religions that made courageous stands, Jehovah’s Witnesses stood out as the only religion that needed it’s own badge in the concentration camps. (the purple triangle)
I have already had some on this forum criticize JW’s for pointing out historical facts about churches being involved in war and politics.
Remember, the Pharisees didn’t hate Jesus because he lied and made things up. They hated him because he told the truth, and it exposed them. So they pressured the authorities into destroying him.
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ajcstr
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Weren’t there several Old Testament figures involved in war and politics? Joshua, David, Judas Maccabees to name a few?
And for blasphemy for claiming to be God.
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ajcstr
Guest
I agree with some of the things you do given your interpretation of scripture although I think you take it to far. That being said I don’t think I would fare too well in China for similar reasons.And there we see a potential conflict:
What if something the government demands, compromises what God commands? What if the government orders you to do something you know God forbids?
For example: What would you do if the government ordered you to bear false witness about someone? Or if it told you to murder someone? Or if it ordered you to renounce Christ?
So putting these principles together, Jehovah’s Witnesses will obey the government in all things, unless it orders us to do something that conflicts with Jehovah’s instructions.
Do you agree with that conclusion?
Recently for instance there was major backlash in the US regarding the Health Care Act and certain medical practices that were deemed unacceptable by the Catholic Church for one.
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adf417
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ajcstr
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Well in 1918 the Watchtower encouraged its Bible students to purchase war bonds
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chloride
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Also the first thing I thought of. Niemöller’s words seem to echo all too much these days.
While I’m not a huge fan of JWs (frankly, I just wish they’d stop trying to give me newspapers or evangelize me when I’m waiting at the bus stop), this should be seen as a serious blow to the freedom to practice one’s religion. If they ban the JWs, it opens the door for the banning of other religious minorities.
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adf417
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Quite the contrary for me. I wish they would come back and try “evangelizing” me again. I can only believe my questions were to hard to answer and points were not covered in their JW literature.
Peace!!!
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Potter
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That would explain the number of Witnesses I’ve seen in the library printing letters to various Russian officials. I work with quite a few JW’s, and find them to be pleasant, modest people who have a real interest in godliness. I don’t know about the theology, but I’m against people being oppressed. Orthodoxy won’t prevail in Russia by relying on Caesar more than Christ…
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jlhargus
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I agreeQuite the contrary for me. I wish they would come back and try “evangelizing” me again. I can only believe my questions were to hard to answer and points were not covered in their JW literature.
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Logically
Guest
Yes, we have been encouraged to write to the Russian government and courts to voice our concerns.
jw.org/en/news/releases/by-region/russia/jw-mobilize-global-response-to-threat-of-ban/
Many in my congregation have written a letter to President Putin, the Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister, the Prosecutor general,the chief Justice and head of the suprteme court.
Since there are over 8 million active JW’s in the world - I suspect the Kremlins mail service will be rather busy this week.
I see “Voice of America” has just written put out an article on it too.
voanews.com/a/russia-government-seeks-ban-jehovahs-witnesses/3794608.html
Cool. News is spreading.
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Peter_J
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You certainly don’t have to have a blood transfusion if you don’t want to, but if JWs have a child who is in serious need of a blood transfusion and prevent him or her from getting one then that is serious medical neglect.
I’m by no means saying I agree with Russia banning JWs, but I think we in the USA should examine ourselves and whether we’ve sometimes been too quick to put religious-exemptions in some of our laws.
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jlhargus
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Originally Posted by jlhargus Government service isn’t even close to a match for a sacrifice to a god. Government service is a good when done, as God intended, for the common good of all.
[Rms14:1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. … 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.]
According to WT publications new light isn’t supposed to contradict old light yet that is exactly what happens ever time the light switch is switched. Some cases it has been switched back and forth several times. I guess it depends on who has their hand on the light switch while sailing and tacking in the wind. Not very logical.
jwfacts.com/watchtower/superior-authorities.php
“The Superior Authorities are the Most High God Jehovah and his exalted Son Jesus Christ.” This Means Everlasting Life(1950) p.197
[Rms14:1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. … 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.]
Yes I know that was the teaching before 1929. When Rutherford was in charge of the light switch old light, new light. He switched the higher authorities to mean Jehovah and his son Jesus. In 1962 the light switch was switched back to what you posted which is civil government.
According to WT publications new light isn’t supposed to contradict old light yet that is exactly what happens ever time the light switch is switched. Some cases it has been switched back and forth several times. I guess it depends on who has their hand on the light switch while sailing and tacking in the wind. Not very logical.
jwfacts.com/watchtower/superior-authorities.php
“The Superior Authorities are the Most High God Jehovah and his exalted Son Jesus Christ.” This Means Everlasting Life(1950) p.197
I agree, obey except for laws that would force one to violate the gospel.
Christ may have been hated for telling the truth but it certainly can’t be remotely logical JWs were hated because of the truth.Remember, the Pharisees didn’t hate Jesus because he lied and made things up. They hated him because he told the truth, and it exposed them. So they pressured the authorities into destroying him.
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Peter_J
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Just so. I’m all for religious freedom, but religious freedom doesn’t mean that anything is fine so long as it’s done in the name of religion.
P. S. One of the troubling things to read in recent times is articles about Burwell v. Hobby Lobby that say stuff like “SCOTUS decided that Catholic companies don’t have to provide contraceptives”, as though non-Catholic companies do have to.
P. S. One of the troubling things to read in recent times is articles about Burwell v. Hobby Lobby that say stuff like “SCOTUS decided that Catholic companies don’t have to provide contraceptives”, as though non-Catholic companies do have to.
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ajcstr
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Hope they have Trump cc’d on them
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