Jehovah's Witnesses and Catholics.

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Mackbrislawn,

Please know that I do believe in the divinity or deity of Christ. I just do not believe he is the Almighty God or part of a three in one God. I appreciate your honest observation that early Christians didn’t think of the Trinity as many do today. QEOS has a wider meaning than the Western world view of “god.”

The thing for me is my God has no God. The moment you begin to worship someone other than yourself you cannot be that God… At every stage of Jesus’ life he has someone who is God to him. Nowhere are we told in Scripture that Jesus is the same identity as God himself. He is not that Supreme individual or Being.
The meaning of words…people can use the same words but mean something quite different. However, since there is only one true God, and Jesus is divine and a god, He must not be a true god. He must be false.

Now, Trinitarians do not consider God as having parts; the persons are not parts, even though they can be conceptually separated.

I do not follow the reasoning that if you worship someone other than yourself you cannot be that God. The persons are all God to one another and worship one another, and so it is indeed true, Jesus at all times has had someone who is God to him.

Trinitarians will not agree that nowhere in Scripture are we told that Jesus is the same identity as God himself. They see it all over. Of course it is because they know how to do it; since they have the advantage of the tradition from the apostles, they know how to properly interpret and understand scripture. They are not untaught, as Peter says at 2Peter 3:16.

That is the importance of oral tradition, it provides the paradigm, or pattern, in which to read scripture. Peter explicitly states that without it, you are untaught, and liable to misunderstand scripture, to your own destruction.

Everyone will have some sort of oral tradition or paradigm in which they understand scripture. Catholics believe their paradigm comes from the earliest Christians, but they consider others to have a tradition that begins with some human person, such as John Calvin, Charles T. Russell, or Ellen G. White, et al. These are “man-made traditions.”

Yes, it is indeed true, I’m sure that the earliest Christians did not think of the Trinity the same way as Christians did later. They probably didn’t think about it at all, they merely accepted without wondering. By the same token, I’m sure the earliest Christians didn’t make the distinction between the heavenly calling and the earthly calling either. They knew nothing about it. And the very earliest ones didn’t know anything about the 144,000 as well, because the book of Revelation wasn’t written yet. They didn’t have it to read!

So, deeper understandings develop as time goes on, but the basic understanding cannot change.
 
Pablope,

But the book of Acts and the Pauline Epistles demonstrate the eagerness for reading and applying the Scriptures and the teachings of the apostles on the part of the earliest Christians in their house “churches.”
The above is a real good example of the use of tradition, or teaching of the apostles. This teaching of course was all oral, since at that time absolutely none of the Christian scriptures were written.

The Scriptures these Christians were applying would be what we would now call the Old Testament. They were applying these scriptures to show to themselves that Jesus was the Messiah. Definitely not an instance of scripture alone! This is because they were using oral tradition to understand Scriptures. (The Bereans did the same when they used the oral tradition received from Paul to apply to scripture.)

And this teaching of the apostles would have been remembered as time went on and Christian scriptures came into being. The understanding received from the apostles would have been passed to subsequent generations of Christians. They wouldn’t have acquired amnesia just because Christian writings developed!
 
Ok i am split between two Religions. The Catholic Church, and Jehovah’s WItnesses. Reason being the Catholic Church is the oldest Church there is and it can be traced back Jesus. The first Pope was supposedly Peter. Then Jehovah’s WItnesses have done more research than any more religion and they use the Bible more than another religion i have seen. I could just close off to the Catholic Church and continue being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses but there is a chance that the Catholic church is true and it might be where God wants me. I don’t know for sure yet but I am going to ask you people many questions. I will judge where I go on how the get answered and how reliable they are. I do not mean to bash any religion i am just trying to find the truth. I ask my questions out of kindness. So please answer out of kindness. Thank you 🙂

RULES:
You must know what the Witnesses teach. I have been studying for a long time and i will know if you telling the truth.

Do not contradict Bible verse. I give with others in the bible because they have already been explained. So you must first explain the bible verses I give you and then show me others in the bible.

Do not say things degrading the Witnesses only answer the questions i give you or i will not listen.

Let me say I am doing this out of love for God and i need to know the truth with out a doubt in my mind. So if the Catholic Church is where God is calling me He will keep me there.

My First Question why not use the Name of God? That is Jehovah or Yahweh or what ever. Jesus name was probably pronounce said Yeshua. Or something like it. Jesus is just the english way of saying it. In the Bible it is used many times. nearly 7,000 times in the OT and even in the NT it has been implied. Romans 10:13 Psalms 83:18 KJ Joel 2:32 So out of that how is there any question whether or not to use God’s Name?
What You need to do is research the JW Bible and see where it come from,We know the Cathloic bible was from God
 
T-More,

In Jesus ministry when talking to the Samaritan woman at the well Jesus told her, “ego eimi,” to establish what? That he was God or simply that he was the long-awaited Messiah, the Christ? (John 4:25, 26) Read the context and tell me what you see. Many “scholars” and Bible translators realize Jesus was just responding saying, “ego eimi,” I am he.

John 4:25, 26 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)

25The woman saith to him: I know that the Messias cometh (who is called Christ); therefore, when he is come, he will tell us all things.

26Jesus saith to her: I am he, who am speaking with thee.

Jesus was merely confirming he was the Messiah who had come. Check any Greek Interlinear and see if “he” is there in the Greek. Why are you not coming down hard on your esteemed Catholic Bible translators?
Ok. It seems that in the last page or two, there have been posts made which create the false arguement stating every occurance of “EGO EIMI” always means “I AM” of Exodus. This is not true. Please stop trying to knock down a straw man that never existed in the first place.:rolleyes:

John 8:58 EGO EIMI is translated as I AM not just because it says EGO EIMI, but because of the contextual reaction of the Jews.

Need more evidence? Doubltess, there are mountains of it through the Early Church Fathers, who, as the Watchtower clearly states, are “of interest”.

Are you concerned because the translation is not grammatically correct? Here is the solution:

Not “Before Abraham was born, I have been”

But “Before Abraham was born, I have **always **been.”
 
T-More,

I must say your tactic reminds me of the desperation of someone who just throws a bunch of balls at a target in the hope that something will hit it.

Jude 4 cannot be ripped from its context and misapplied. The whole context of Jude 1-4 is the CONTRAST between being “slaves” of the Master Christ, and bondage to the apostates who were slipping into the Christian congregation. Against those, Jude warned Christians to “put up a hard fight for the faith,” and he is contrasting those false brothers who wanted the ownership of Christians, to “our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.” Jesus was the only Owner and Lord of Christians in comparison to or distinction from human owners or lords, the false brothers who wanted control and mastery over them and their faith.

Therefore, at Jude 4, Jesus is not being compared or equated with Jehovah, but contrasted with men, the “ungodly men” who were trying to turn “the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct,” and bring Christians into slavery to sin. Context, always context.

And John 17:3 is specifically a prayer of Jesus directed to his Father (John 17:1) where Jesus calls his Father the “ONLY TRUE God.” There is no sense in trying to argue away what Jesus clearly and specifically says here. Jude 4 is not in the same class as John 17:3 at all. The contexts are totally different.

That’s it for today. Will check in sometime later this weekend if I get a chance. Take a break and get some fresh air.
They are in similar contextual contrasts, my friend. Once the historical context is made known, the message becomes quite clear. From John 17:3 Haydock commentary:

This is life everlasting; that is, the way to life everlasting, that they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent[2]. The Arians, from these words, pretended that the Father only is the true God. St. Augustine and divers others answer, that the sense and construction is, that they may know thee, and also Jesus Christ thy Son, whom thou hast sent to be the only true God. We may also expound them with St. John Chrysostom and others, so that the Father is here called the only true God, not to exclude the Son, and the Holy Ghost, who are the same one true God with the Father; but only to exclude the false gods of the Gentiles. Let the Socinians take notice, that (1 John v. 20.) the Son of God, Jesus Christ, is expressly called the true God, even with the Greek article, upon which they commonly lay so much stress. (Witham) — Life everlasting. Both the life of glory in heaven, and of grace here, consisteth in the knowledge of God; the former in perfect vision, the latter in faith working by charity. For knowledge of God, without keeping his commandments, is not true knowledge, but unprofitable knowledge. (1 John xi.)

What if you were walking down the street and some random guy comes up to you and said the only way to everlasting life is to believe in The only true God AND ME? Would it not be fair to say he was putting himself on the same level as God?
 
You do know that the JW have the most corrupt bible in the world,this is a fact
 
Mackbrislawn,

Please know that I do believe in the divinity or deity of Christ. I just do not believe he is the Almighty God or part of a three in one God. I appreciate your honest observation that early Christians didn’t think of the Trinity as many do today. QEOS has a wider meaning than the Western world view of “god.”

The thing for me is my God has no God. The moment you begin to worship someone other than yourself you cannot be that God… At every stage of Jesus’ life he has someone who is God to him. Nowhere are we told in Scripture that Jesus is the same identity as God himself. He is not that Supreme individual or Being.
Dear Nick,

This is most interesting to me and I would like to ask you to explain further your point on Christ as a deity.

Is Christ a deity Jehovah’s Witnesses would worship? Certainly, the Arians did worship Christ as such, even though they (all three Arian branches) didn’t believe that Christ was equal to God.

In what sense could Christ be a “deity” and not, at the same time, demand our worship?

Thank you sir!

Alex
 
Thank you for you kindness. Jehovah’s Witnesses have their reasons why they have come up so late. They think in 1914 that Jesus came back to earth in spirit. Then he established his congregation. They think they have the truth but now that i know the Jehovah was created. HIs name i mean i don’t know what to think.
JL: Ask yourself and them, what scripture do they use to show Christ came back secretly in 1914 in spirit? What scripture shows the new covenant was closed in 1935? If Christ came back and established his congregation in 1914 wouldn’t He have also given them the CORRECT SPELLING and NAME of God, if it were so important to know? If using a certain name was important why didn’t any of the prophets ever mention it was important and correct the error. Not one prophet ever said Israel was superstitious because they would not pronounce the name of God, why? I think it is more superstitious insisting even a known incorrect name must be used.

Wouldn’t Christ have also given the GOSPEL TRUTH? Yet we see, from old Watch Tower magazines, JW’s teaching the opposite of that taught in 1914. Christ was worshiped till about 1950.

“Let all the angels of God worship him’ [that must include Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God].” WT 11/1879, p. 48

All creatures in heaven and earth shall worship Jesus as he worships the Father. WT 8/15/1941, p. 252 pg 29 Index of Watch Tower Errors, David A Reed, editor compiled by Steve Huntoon & John Cornell, Baker Book House Grand Rapids, Michigan 49516

You must worship and bow down to Jehovah’s chief one, namely Jesus Christ. WT 10/15/1945, p. 313 pg 30 Index of Watch Tower Errors, David A Reed, editor compiled by Steve Huntoon & John Cornell, Baker Book House Grand Rapids, Michigan 49516

“Jesus Christ further deserves honor because he is Jehovah’s chief angel, or archangel.” The Watchtower, Feb. 1, 1991

“God did not send some angel to rescue mankind. He made the supreme sacrifice of sending his only-begotten Son…” The Watchtower, Feb. 15, 1991

Do not erroneously conclude that Christians are to worship Christ. That is not what the Bible taught. WT 7/15/1959, p. 421 pg 34 Index of Watch Tower Errors, David A Reed, editor compiled by Steve Huntoon & John Cornell, Baker Book House Grand Rapids, Michigan 49516

“… it is unscriptural for worshipers of the living and true God to render worship to the Son of God, Jesus Christ.” WT 11/1/1964, p. 671 pg 37 Index of Watch Tower Errors, David A Reed, editor compiled by Steve Huntoon & John Cornell, Baker Book House Grand Rapids, Michigan 49516

Index of Watch Tower Errors, David A Reed, editor compiled by Steve Huntoon & John Cornell, Baker Book House Grand Rapids, Michigan 49516

1874 was the original date for Christ’s secret return. Wouldn’t Christ have told them 1914 was not the end of the world or 1925 or all the other dates proclaimed by the WT?
 
And when the end does come does the Bible not teach that the EARTH is going to become a paradise?
JL: Yes, there will be a NEW HEAVEN (universe) AND NEW EARTH. God’s abode HEAVEN and the NEW EARTH will be united. God will make His abode with men on the NEW EARTH.

The SAME earth and the same HEAVEN (universe). Just as our resurrected bodies are transformed to glorified bodies so the new earth and new heaven (universe) will be transformed into a glorified body, with the Glory of God, when the New Jerusalem comes down upon the new earth.

[Rv21:1 And I saw **A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for THE FIRST HEAVEN and THE FIRST EARTH WERE PASSED AWAY; and there was no more sea.] See CCC 1042.

Rv21: 2 And I JOHN SAW THE holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, COMING DOWN FROM GOD OUT OF HEAVEN, prepared AS A BRIDE adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, and HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and GOD HIMSELF SHALL BE WITH THEM, and be their God.

Rev21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY AND THE LAMB ARE THE TEMPLE OF IT. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

[Rv21:27 And **there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.] Rv21:27 tells us, in no wise will anything that defileth, works abomination or lies will be found there. Doesn’t the WT teach those not found written in the book of life will be given a second chance on the earth? Wouldn’t that contradict Rv21:27?.

Eph1:10 That IN THE dispensation of the FULNESS OF TIMES he might GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE ALL THINGS in Christ, BOTH which are IN HEAVEN, AND which are ON EARTH; even in him:

Acts3:21 For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Col1:20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

2Pt3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY with a great noise, and THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT with fervent heat, THE EARTH ALSO AND THE WORKS that are THEREIN SHALL BE BURNED UP. 11 Seeing then that ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE DISSOLVED, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein THE HEAVENS BEING ON FIRE SHALL BE DISSOLVED, and THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT? 13 Nevertheless WE, according to his promise, LOOK FOR NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH, wherein dwelleth righteousness. See also Is66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

[Rm8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that **THE WHOLE CREATION GROANETH AND TRAVAILETH IN PAIN TOGETHER UNTIL NOW. 23 AND not only they, but OURSELVES ALSO, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, TO WIT, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY.]

Rv2:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but THE THRONE OF GOD AND OF THE LAMB SHALL BE IN IT; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And THEY SHALL SEE HIS FACE; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Mt8:11 And I say unto you, That MANY SHALL COME FROM THE EAST AND WEST, AND shall SIT down** WITH ABRAHAM**, AND ISAAC, AND JACOB, IN THE KIMGDOM OF HEAVEN.

Lk13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when YE SAHLL SEE ABRAHAM, AND ISAAC, AND JACOB, AND ALL THE PROPHETS, IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD, and you yourselves thrust out.
 
Code:
And these people Like Jesus Mary and others are not up there in Body and flesh as the catholic Church teaches.
[Mt27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And THE GRAVES WERE OPENED; and MAN BODIES OF THE SAINTS which slept AROSE, 53 And CAME OUT OF THE GRAVES after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and APPEARED UNTO MANY.] Did the BODIES of the SAINTS come forth from the grave by the power of God only to be sent back to the grave and DECAY again?

[Hb9:11 But **CHRIST BEING COME AN HIGH PRIEST of good things to come, BY A GREATER AND MORE PERFECT TABERNACLE, NOT MADE WITH HANDS, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but BY HIS OWN BLOOD HE ENTERED in once INTO THE HOLY PLACE, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And FOR THIS CAUSE HE IS THE MEDIATOR OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.]

The MAN Jesus Christ was bodily raised as He Himself tells us, [Jn2:19 **JESUS answered and SAID unto them, DESTROY THIS TEMPLE, and IN THREE DAYS I WILL RAISE IT UP. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But HE SPAKE OF THE TEMPLE OF HIS BODY. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.]
[Hb 7:24 But this man, because HE CONTINUETH EVER, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore HE is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing **HE EVER LIVETH to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest BECAME US, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and MADE HIGHER THAN THE HEAVENS;] Christ our High Priest is in heaven a MAN and God. His now glorified human body and blood had to be resurrected, High Priest are taken from among MEN and SUCH AN HIGH PRIEST BECAME US, He became MAN.

[Hb12:22 But **YE ARE COME unto mount Sion, and UNTO THE CITY OF THE LIVING GOD, THE HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and TO an innumerable company of ANGELS, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and TO GOD THE JUDGE OF ALL, and TO THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN made perfect, 24 And TO JESUS THE MEDIATOR of the new covenant, and TO THE BLOOD OF SPRINKLING, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.] In the above verses from Hebrews, we see Christ entered into heaven with His blood, the blood of sprinkling. We also see Christ, as a MAN, our High Priest AND mediator

LK 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and SUPPOSED THAT THEY HAD SEEN A SPIRIT. 38 And he said unto them, WHY ARE YE TROUBLED? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that IT IS I MYSELF: handle me, and SEE; for A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES, AS YE SEE ME HAVE. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

JN 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to ]b]THOMAS, REACH HITHER THY FINGER, and BEHOLD MY HANDS; and REACH HITHER THY HAND, and THRUST IT INTO MY SIDE: and BE NOT FAITHLESS, BUT BELIEVING. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, MY LORD AND MY GOD. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

ACTS 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man (Greek, aner=man. Individual male) approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

ACTS 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, NEITHER his flesh did see corruption. 32 THIS JESUS hath GOD RAISED up, whereof WE ALL ARE WITNESSES. 33 Therefore BEING BY THE RITHT HAND OF GOD EXALTED, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, HE hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
 
1 Cor 15: 42-50

[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption,
it shall rise in incorruption. [43] It is sown in dishonour, it shall rise in glory. It is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power. [44] IT is sown a natural body, IT shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written: [45] The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit.

JL: [Eph2:3 Among whom also **WE ALL had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were BY NATURE THE CHILDREN OF WRATH, even as others. 4 But WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN SINS, hath QUICKENED US together WITH CHRIST, (BY GRACE YE ARE SAVED;

We are raised with the SAME BODY. Doesn’t the WT teach the soul IS THE BODY or the human being? If that were true, then to create another body is to create a different human being. You can’t call that a RESURRECTION as nothing is resurrected. Something different is created not resurrected. 1Cor15 tells us if Christ be NOT RAISED we are yet in our sins. The bodies of God’s people are buried a natural body, IT is raised in incorruption, IT is raised in glory, IT is raised in power, IT is raised a spiritual body. We are all born naturally in Adam. We are born again, into new Adam, Christ, supernaturally, by water AND of the Spirit thru baptism. At baptism we receive the Holy Spirit the earnest of redemption.

[2Cor1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also **sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.]

[1Cor15:14 And **IF Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found FALSE WITNESSES of God; BECAUSE WE have TESTIFIED of GOD that he RAISED UP CHRIST: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are PERISHED. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, BY MAN CAME also THE RESURRECTION of the dead.]

The MAN Jesus Christ was bodily raised as He Himself tells us, [Jn2:19 **JESUS answered and SAID unto them, DESTROY THIS TEMPLE, and IN THREE DAYS I WILL RAISE IT UP. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But HE SPAKE OF THE TEMPLE OF HIS BODY. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.]
Code:
[46] Yet that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; afterwards that which is spiritual. [47] The first man was of the earth, earthly: the second man, from heaven, heavenly. [48] Such as is the earthly, such also are the earthly: and such as is the heavenly, such also are they that are heavenly. [49] Therefore as we have borne the image of the earthly, let us bear also the image of the heavenly. [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess incorruption.
JL: Yes first man is born with a natural earthly body, but in the resurrection Christ’s people will be raised with the SAME, yet transformed heavenly body. Our earthly body, flesh, is so transformed at the resurrection it will be heavenly (spiritualized). Transformed by the power of Christ, our Lord and God. [Phil3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for THE SAVIOUR, the Lord JESUS CHRIST: 21 who SHALL CHANGE OUR VILE BODY, that it may be fashioned LIKE UNTO HIS GLORIOUS BODY, according to the working whereby HE IS ABLE EVEN TO SUBDUE ALL THING UNTO HIMSELF.] Angels are spirit they do not have bodies, human beings are body AND soul (spirit). We see the MAN, human being=body AND soul, Jesus Christ in heaven as our mediator.

[1Tm2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, THE **MAN CHRIST JESUS;] When Christ appeared to the apostles, He said, It is I, touch me see that I HAVE FLESH AND BONE, you know SPIRITS DO NOT HAVE THESE.

LK 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and SUPPOSED THAT THEY HAD SEEN A SPIRIT. 38 And he said unto them, WHY ARE YE TROUBLED? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that IT IS I MYSELF: handle me, and SEE; for A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES, AS YE SEE ME HAVE. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

The heavenly kingdom will be in the new earth and the new heaven (universe). The earth and universe will also be transformed to heavenly bodies, the old earth and universe will melt and be transformed. God himself will have his abode with men.
 
Nicea325,

It appears regardless of what I say I am not going to influence you. Your tone and attitude is beyond the idea of seeing the truth in anything.

Are you familiar with Geisler who was a leading apologist in the world throughout the 20th century, and is a leading authority on the Bible. He said something worthy of consideration:

“Canonicity is recognized by men of God Inspiration determines canonicity. If a book was authoritative, it was so because God breathed it and made it so. How a book received authority, then, is determined by God. How men recognize that authority is another matter altogether (see discussion in chap.13). As J. I. Packer notes, ―The Church no more gave us the New Testament canon than Sir Isaac Newton gave us the force of gravity. God gave us gravity, by His work of creation, and similarly He gave us the New Testament canon, by inspiring the individual books that make it up.”
I beg your pardon? Seeing the Truth from JW’s? Really? I am very familiar what JW’s teach: Another Jesus and Christianity. As for your quote? Thank you,but I have read enough sources throughout the years about the canon and I simply do not quote a few words to prove an agenda as JW’s repeatedly do. So, you are correct, no JW will ever convince me of anything they teach.
 
Man-made teachings go beyond the Scriptures. Something we are told to avoid. “Do not go beyond the Scriptures.” (1 Corinthians 4:6)
1Cor1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

1Cor1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1Cor3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

[Per footnote in the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible NT RSVSCE. Paul cautions believers to stay within the limits of personal humility defined by the Scriptures. Referring to the string of OT warnings about boasting.]

JL: Then you should not follow the WT. Actually Paul would be contradicting himself had he been speaking of the scriptures. Paul tells us in scripture to hold Tradition whether by WORD or EPISTLE.

How about the WT man-made teaching, traditions of men, made a doctrine that nullifies the Word of God. Such as only 144 thousand go to heaven and belong to the new covenant. How about scripture for 1935 being the year heaven was closed and no one born after 1935 can enter into the new covenant, receive communion or go to heaven? Were is the scripture telling us the MAN Jesus went out of existence at death? Were is the scripture telling us Christ’s body, laid in the tomb, turned into gas and disappeared?

In fact what is written (scripture) tells us to hold TRADITIONS. It is never okay to add or subtract from the Word of God, Whether by word or epistle, 2Thes2:14. By the way, if the Holy Spirit by the church can infallibly discern and faithfully preserve the written Apostolic Tradition of Scripture, without distortion. Then that same Holy Spirit can certainly by the same church preserve that Apostolic oral Tradition, without distortion. It is that same Holy Spirit who is the origin and acts thru both the Church and scripture. Who outside of the Jehovah’s Witnesses do not see the Watch Tower translation of scripture as deliberately distorted to fit their own traditions of men. So we see even the written word doesn’t guarantee, there is no distortion, not to mention thousands of misinterpretation.

JL: [2Tm3:10 BUT **THOU HAST FULLY KNOWN MY DOCTRINE, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But CONTINUE THOU IN THE THINGS WHICH THOU HAST LEARNED AND HAST BEEN ASSURED OF, KNOWING OF WHOM THOU HAST LEARNED THEM; 15 AND that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION in righteousness: 17 THAT the MAN of God MAY BE perfect, thoroughly FURNISHED UNTO all GOOD WORKS.] Paul is instructing Timothy to use BOTH oral Tradition LEARNED from Paul, as well as written Tradition=scripture OT.

2Thes2:14 Whereunto he called you by OUR GOSPEL, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and HOLD THE TRADITIONS which ye have been TAUGHT, whether BY WORD, OR our EPISTLE. [Paul is instructing Timothy to use BOTH what he has LEARNED (oral Tradition) and the written Tradition (Scripture) which Paul calls OUR GOSPEL.]

1TIM 6: Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings,

PHILIP 4:9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do

[1 THES 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when **ye received the word of God which ye heard, of us ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.] BOTH divine Oral Tradition and Written Tradition of Scripture are the ONE Word of God
2 THES 2:14 Whereunto he called you by OUR GOSPEL, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether BY word, OR our epistle.

Jn 14: 26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

2TIM 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the THINGS that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

CONTINUED:
 
CONTINUED:

2 TIM 1:13 HOLD FAST THE form of SOUND WORDS, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was COMMITTED unto thee KEEP BY THE HOLY GHOST which dwelleth in us.

Timothy received the gift of the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands, (holy orders, ordination, apostolic succession.) It is thru the Holy Spirit that oral apostolic tradition is kept and discerned, by the church, as opposed to a tradition of men. Scripture tells us the Church is the pillar and ground of truth, 1Tm 3:15. The church’s testimony is of no less value than scripture, because the Holy Spirit is the origin of both and ACTIVE IN BOTH, as the council of Jerusalem wrote to the churches, Act15:28 For IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE HOLY GHOST AND TO US

[2THESSALONIANS3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye **WITHDRAW yourselves FROM EVERY BROTHER THAT WALKETH disorderly, and NOT AFTER THE TRADITION which he RECEIVED OF US.] Evidently Paul thought holding Tradition was very important otherwise why tell people to withdraw from A BROTHER who will not follow them.

other scriptures tell us, 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH AND the spirit of ERROR**

Jn 15:20…if THEY have KEPT my saying they WILL KEEP YOURS ALSO Jn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone but for them which shall believe on me through their word.] Apostolic tradition was delivered face to face from God (Christ) and is discerned by the help of the Holy Spirit. scripture is inspiried by the Holy Spirit. The canon of the bible was discerned, by the church, thru the Holy Spirit along with Apostolic Tradition.

The burden of proof would be on those who claim ALL Tradition is now written in scripture. They must prove scripture ALONE or produce scripture saying ALL Tradition is now in scripture. Otherwise you follow an oral tradition of men made a doctrine of God. Paul says in 2 Thes, our gospel, brethren, whether BY word=oral or epistle=written.**
 
Code:
Are you familiar with Geisler who was a leading apologist in the world throughout the 20th century, and is a leading authority on the Bible. He said something worthy of consideration:
JL: I have never heard of Geisler so I looked him up on line. He is an Evangelical apologist born 1932. I would say you have never heard nor read anything he has ever written. Unless you did so before you were a JW, which I doubt. I would bet you never heard of him before the WT told you he was a great authority. JW’s are not permitted to read apostate writtings. So the WT uses him and tells you he is such a great authority on scripture. Well the following link is a debate on the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Guess who is defending the bodily resurrection.

Maybe you should get his book on cults and maybe the WT should change it’s teaching to line up with this leading apologist in the world throughout the 20th century, AND a LEADING AUTHORITY on the Bible. You should verify all WT quotes for yourself, you might really lean something. Oh , I forgot, you can’t do your own research. The WT does ALL the research and tells you what they want you to hear. 👍

infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/geisler-till/
 
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