Jehovahs Witnesses, Catholicism and the Incarnation

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Re: What does this tells you? … Romans 13
« Reply #31 on: Today at 07:45:16 AM »
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Hope this clarifies my view on it:

vindication.xanga.com/649437175/item/

“Michael” and “Jesus”
Are both - the same person

How Do We Know ?

MICHAEL AND JESUS ARE THE SAME PERSON ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE

Jesus Applied Prophecies
About Michael - To Himself

JESUS APPLIED PROPHECIES ABOUT MICHAEL TO HIMSELF
Jesus Applied Prophecies
About Michael - To Himself

Michael’s Return
is identical
to Jesus’ Return.

Michael’s Return is identical to Jesus’ Return.
Both in the Bible Book of “Daniel” and in the
Bible Book of “Matthew” - the return of Michael,
is described in the exact same way as Jesus
described his own return. Jesus even tells his
Followers - that the Prophet Daniel had previously
spoke about it. It’s a dead giveaway

“Michael…he will come
at a time of terrible suffering,
the worst in all of history…”
(Daniel 12:1)(CEV)-BibleGateway

They asked Jesus - “What will be the sign
of your coming ? …Jesus said…The prophet
Daniel described this. If you’ve read Daniel,
you’ll know what I’m talking about. This is going
to be trouble on a scale beyond what
the world has ever seen, or will see again.”
(Matthew 24:3,15,21)(MSG)-BibleGateway

“At that time Michael will appear.
He is the great leader of the angels…
There will be a time of terrible suffering.
Things will be worse than at any time
since nations began.”
(Daniel 12:1)(NIRV)-BibleGateway

“Later, Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives.
His disciples came to him privately and said,
“Tell us…What sign will signal your return…”
(Jesus replied) - “The day is coming when you
will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about—
…For there will be greater anguish
than at any time since the world began.
And it will never be so great again."
(Matthew 24:3,15,21)(NLT)-BibleGateway

"AND AT that time of the end
Michael shall arise…And there shall be
a time of trouble, straitness, and distress
such as never was since there was a nation
till that time. "
(Daniel 12:1)(AMP)-BibleGateway

"Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives.
The followers came to Him when He
was alone and said, "Tell us…What
can we look for to show us of Your coming…?
(Jesus answered sayint) - “It was spoken of
by the early preacher Daniel. In those days
there will be very much trouble and pain
and sorrow. It has never been this bad
from the beginning of the world
and never will be again.”
(Matthew 24:3,15,21)(NLV)-BibleGateway

“Michael, the chief of the angels…
will come at a time of terrible suffering,
the worst in all of history…”
(Daniel 12:1)(CEV)-BibleGateway

Both Michael and Jesus
Will Resurrect the Dead

JESUS AND MICHAEL ARE THE SAME THEY BOTH RESURRECT THE DEAD

Both Michael and Jesus are Linked
with resurrecting the Dead

The prophecies in Daniel speak of Michael
as being responsible for resurrecting the dead.
In the Bible Book of John, Jesus is described
in almost identical terms, in calling the dead
from their graves.

“At that time Michael…will arise.
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth
will awake: some to everlasting life,
others to shame and everlasting contempt.”
(Daniel 12:1,2)(NIV)-BibleGateway

“…The time will come when all of the dead
will hear the voice of the Son of Man (Jesus),
and they will come out of their graves.
Everyone who has done good things will rise to life,
but everyone who has done evil things
will rise and be condemned.”
(John 5:28,29)(CEV)-BibleGateway

“AND AT that time of the end
Michael shall arise…And many of
those who sleep in the dust of the earth
shall awake…”
(Daniel 12:1,2)(AMP)-BibleGateway

“Don’t be so surprised!
Indeed, the time is coming when
all the dead in their graves
will hear the voice of - ‘God’s Son’,
and they will rise again.
Those who have done good will rise
to eternal life, and those who have
continued in evil will rise to judgment.”
(John 5:28,29)(NLT)-BibleGateway

“At that time Michael will appear…
Huge numbers of people who lie dead
in their graves will wake up.”
(Daniel 12:1,2)(NIRV)-BibleGateway

"I tell you for certain that the time will come
…when all of the dead will hear the voice of
the Son of God. And those who listen to it will live!
The Father has the power to give life,
and he has given that same power to the Son. "
(John 5:25,26)(CEV)-BibleGateway

“For the Lord himself
will come down from heaven,
with a loud command,
with the voice of the archangel
and with the trumpet call of God,
and the dead in Christ will rise first.”
(1Thessalonians 4:16)(NIV)-BibleGateway

“That’s when Michael, the great angel-prince,
will step in…Many who have been long dead
and buried will wake up, some to eternal life,
others to eternal shame.”
(Daniel 12:1,2)(MSG)-BibleGateway

Michael is associated with raising the dead (Dan 12:2)
and so is Jesus (Jn.5:25,26,28)(1Thes. 4:16).
Jesus has been given authority by his Father
to raise the dead. (Jn.5:25,26,28).
But the voice of the archangel also raises
the dead (1Thes. 4:16; cf Dan.12:2).

Both Jesus and Michael
are “The” ArchAngel

BOTH JESUS AND MICHAEL ARE THE ARCH ANGEL

Both Michael and Jesus
are spoken of as THE “Arch-Angel”

“At that time Michael, THE archangel…
will arise. Then there will be a time of
anguish greater than any since nations
first came into existence.”
(Daniel 12:1)(NLT)-BibleGateway

“For the Lord himself
will come down from heaven,
with a loud command,
with the voice of THE archangel …”
(1Thessalonians 4:16)(NIV)-BibleGateway

“But Michael - THE ARCHANGEL…”
(Jude 1:9)(NASB)-BibleGatewa

“Michael…He was THE Leader of the angels.”
(Jude 1:9)(NIRV)-BibleGateway

“That’s when Michael, the great angel-prince,
will step in…Many who have been long dead
and buried will wake up, some to eternal life,
others to eternal shame.”
(Daniel 12:1,2)(MSG)-BibleGateway

“…THE archangel Michael…”
(Jude 1:9)(NIVUK)-BibleGateway
 
“For the Lord (Jesus) Himself will descend from heaven
with a shout, with the voice of THE archangel…”
(1Thessalonians 4:16)(NASB)-BibleGateway

“…Michael THE archangel…”
(Jude 1:9)(Darby)-BibleGateway

“For the Lord (Jesus) himself will come down
from heaven with a commanding shout,
with the call of THE archangel…”
(1Thessalonians 4:16)(NLT)-BibleGateway

Michael has authority over the angels (Rev.12:7)
and so does Jesus Christ (Mat.16:27; 25:31; 2Thes.1:7).

The nations are destroyed by Jesus and his army
of angels. (Rev.12:12; 17:16, 17; 19:11-16)

JESUS - AN ANGEL OF GOD

"… Instead, you welcomed me
as if I were an angel of God,
as if I were Christ Jesus himself.
(Galatians 4:14)(NIV-BibleGateway

About Jesus it was said that God would
raise him above his companion Angels :

Jesus - “You have loved righteousness
and hated wickedness; therefore God,
YOUR GOD, has set you above
your (angel) companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
(Hebrews 1:9)(NIV)-BibleGateway

An “Angel” Chains Satan
Jesus is said to Chain or Abyss him

AN ANGEL CHAINS SATAN YET IT IS CHRIST WHO DOES IT

Satan is chained and abyssed by an angel
for a thousand years. (Rev.20:1, 2, 10)

“Then I saw ‘AN ANGEL’ coming down from heaven,
holding…a great chain in his hand.
And he laid hold of the dragon,
the serpent of old, who is the devil
and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.”
(Revelation 20:1,2)(NASB)-BibleGateway

The demons identified Christ as the one who was
to chain and hurl them into the “abyss” (Mt 8:29).

“…victims of demons, coming out of
the cemetery…and Seeing Jesus, they
screamed out, 'What business do you have
giving us a hard time? You’re the Son of God!
You weren’t supposed to show up here yet!”
(Matthew 8:28,29)(MSG)-BibleGateway

"’(Jesus) Son of God, what do you want
with us?’ they shouted. “Have you come here
to punish us before the time for us to be judged?”
(Matthew 8:29)(NIRV)-BibleGateway

Jesus is also prophesied as the seed that is to
crush Satan’s head (Gen.3:15), but yet Michael
with “his angels” - does this in Revelation 12.

Michael leads the angels to defeat Satan
and hurl him to earth (Re 12:7).
So does Jesus. (Re 19:13,19).

Satan is abyssed by an angel
for a thousand years. (Rev.20:1, 2, 10)

The demons identified Christ as the one who was
to hurl them into the “abyss” (Mt 8:29).

Other Similarities
Between Jesus and Michael

Both Jesus and Michael
are Called -
“The Great Prince”

BOTH JESUS AND MICHAEL ARE CALLED THE GREAT PRINCE

Michael is called “the great prince” (Dan. 12:1).
Jesus is also called “the Great Prince”
Christ is called a “princely ruler” and
“prince of peace” (Isa.9:6).

“At that time Michael, THE GREAT PRINCE,
…will stand up…”
(Daniel 12:1)(NCV)-BibleGateway

“The God of our ancestors
raised up JESUS…God set him on high
at his side, AS PRINCE and Savior…”
(Acts 5:29-31)(MSG)-BibleGateway

“Then God put him (Jesus) in the place
of honor at his right hand as PRINCE…”
(Acts 5:31)(NLT)-BibleGateway

“For to us a Child will be born.
To us a Son will be given.
And the rule of the nations
will be on His shoulders.
His name will be called…
Prince of Peace.”
(Isaiah 9:6)(NLT)-BibleGateway

“That’s when Michael, the great angel-prince,
will step in…Many who have been long dead
and buried will wake up, some to eternal life,
others to eternal shame.”
(Daniel 12:1,2)(MSG)-BibleGateway

“For unto us a child is born,
unto us a son is given;
and the government shall be
upon his shoulder: and his name
shall be called…Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government
and of peace there shall be no end,
upon the throne of David,
and upon his kingdom, to establish it,
and to uphold it with justice
and with righteousness from henceforth
even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of
hosts will perform this.”
(Isaiah 9:6,7)(ASV)-BibleGateway

Jesus referred to himself as a Prince,
at (Luke 19:12-15) when he gave a parable
of his leaving and returning to the earth.

Both Jesus and Michael are
prophecied to Destroy Satan

BOTH JESUS AND MICHAEL ARE SAID TO CRUSH OR DESTROY SATAN

Jesus is also prophesied as the seed that is to
crush Satan’s head (Gen.3:15), but yet Michael
with “his angels” - does this in Revelation 12.

“God told the serpent:
'Because you’ve done this,
you’re cursed…and He (Jesus)
will crush your head.”
(Genesis 3:14,15)(NIVUK)-BibleGateway

“…He will soon crush Satan
under your feet. May our Lord
Jesus Christ bless you.”
(Romans 16:20)(WE)-BibleGateway

MICHAEL AND JESUS BOTH WAGE WAR AGAINST THE FORCES OF EVIL

Michael leads the angels to defeat Satan
and hurl him to earth (Re 12:7).
So does Jesus. (Re 19:13,19). Jesus leads
his angels to deafeat Satan and his horde.

“And there was war in heaven.
Michael and his angels fought against
the dragon, and the dragon and his angels
fought back. But he was not strong enough,
and they lost their place in heaven.
The great dragon was hurled down—
that ancient serpent called the devil,
or Satan, who leads the whole world astray.
He was hurled to the earth,
and his angels with him.”
(Revelation 20:7-9)(NIV)-BibleGateway

The Scholars Agree
That Jesus and Michael
are The Same Person
 
SCHOLARS AGREE THAT JESUS AND MICHAEL ARE THE SAME PERSON

“There seems good reason
for regarding Michael
as the Messiah (Jesus Christ).”
–William L. Alexander, (Doctor of Divinity)
ed., A CYCLOPEDIA OF BIBLICAL LITERATURE,
originally edited by John Kitto,
3d ed. (Edinburgh: A & C Black, 1886).
vol. 3, p. 158

“Michael, and Angel…both these words
do sometimes refer to Christ; and also affirms
that Christ is the Archangel.”
  • Brown’s dictionary of the Bible
“Michael … in Dan. 10:13,21; 12:1,
is described as having a special charge
of the Jewish nation, and in Rev. 12:7-9
as the leader of the angelic army.
So exalted are the position and offices
ascribed to Michael, that many think
the Messiah is meant.”
– INTERNATIONAL BIBLE DICTIONARY –
ILLUSTRATED
(Plainfield, NJ, Logos International, 1977), p. 35

“Christ is in scripture frequently called an Angel.”
-Buck’s Theological Dictionary

Regarding the occurence of “Michael” in
Revelation 12:7-10, “By the personage(of Michael),
in the Apocalypse, many understand (this to be)
the Lord Jesus.”
-Methodist commentator ADAM CLARKE
(his multi-volume commentary – abridged ed.
by Ralph Earle----published by Abingdon Press,
vol. 6, page 952).

"The descent of the Son to Earth
was understood as the descent to Earth
of the highest prince of the angels,
who became man in Jesus Christ;
he is to some extent identified with
the angel prince Michael.
The Son is not himself God,
but as the highest of the created spiritual beings
he is moved as close as possible to God. "
“The earlier Protestant scholars
usually identified Michael with
the pre-incarnate Christ,
finding support for their view,
not only in the juxtaposition of the “child”
and the archangel in Rev 12,
but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel.”
  • John A. Lees,
    The International
    Standard Bible Encyclopedia,
    1930, Vol. 3, page 2048
Michael in (Rev 12:7-10)implies
“the warlike form of Christ.”
  • J.P. Lange’s ; COMMENTARY
    ON THE HOLY SCRIPTURES,
    s.v. Rev. 12:7
“It is even itself probable that the Leader
of the hosts of light (Michael) (in Rev. 12:7-9)
will be no other than the Captain of our salvation,
the Lord Jesus Christ Himself… Above all,
the prophecies of Daniel, in which the name Michael
first occurs, may be said to decide the point.”
– AN EXPOSITION OF THE BIBLE,
produced by 27 different scholars
publ. in Hartford, CT, 1910, by the Scranton Co.,
vol. 6, p.882

“The parties-Michael and his angels on one side,
and the dragon and his angels on the other:
Christ, the great Angel of the covenant,
and his faithful followers; and Satan and all his
instruments…the strength of the church lies in
having the Lord Jesus for the captain of their salvation.”
-Matthew Henry Commentary;
Concerning Revelation 12:9 #8217

“Michael and Angel are both names of Christ.”
  • Concordances; Butterworth, Cruden, and Taylor
“Here is Michael our prince, the great protector
of the church… The first of the chief princes, v. 13.
Some understand it of a created angel, but an archangel
of the highest order, 1 Th. 4:16; Jude 9. Others think that
Michael the archangel is no other than Christ himself,
the angel of the covenant, and the Lord of the angels,
he whom Daniel saw in vision, v. 5.”
-Matthew Henry Commentary;
Concerning Revelation 12:9 #8217

“…the Logos-Christ was, therefore,
the highest angel-prince and leader
of the angelic host (Michael).”
  • Werner, ibid. 135
“…there will be yet a greater deliverance
to the people of God, when Michael your prince,
the Messiah shall appear for your salvation.
A time of trouble… before the final judgment.
The phrase at that time, probably includes
all the time of Christ, from his first,
to his last coming. Michael - Christ alone
is the protector of his church, when all the
princes of the earth desert or oppose it.”
-John Wesley: Chapter XII
Commentary on Daniel

“And at that time shall Michael stand up,
the great prince… God will send his angel
to deliver it, whom he here calls Michael,
meaning Christ, who is proclaimed by the preaching
of the Gospel.”
  • Geneva Study Bible: Da 12:1
“I embrace the opinion of those who refer
this (Michael) to the person of Christ,
because it suits the subject best
to represent him as standing forward for
the defense of his elect people.”
  • John Calvin,
    COMMENTARIES ON THE BOOK
    OF THE PROPHET DANIEL,
    trans. T. Myers
    (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1979),
    vol. 2 p. 369.
“In a number of passages we read of an angel
who is superior to the six angels forming God’s
inner council, and who is regularly described as
‘most venerable’, ‘holy’ and ‘glorious’.
This angel is given the name of Michael,
and the conclusion is difficult to escape
that Hermas saw in him the Son of God
and equated him with the archangel Michael…
There is evidence also…of attempts to interpret
Christ as a sort of supreme angel…”
  • Early Christian Doctrines, J.N.D. Kelly
    The Shepherd of Hermas, 2nd and 3rd century:
    pp. 94-5.
“The two passages in the New Testament,
in which Michael is mentioned, serve to confirm
the result already arrived at. That the Michael
referred to in Rev. xii. 7 is no other than the Logos,
has already been proved in my commentary
upon that passage. Michael, that is, Christ Jesus
(is) the head of angels.”
  • Geneva Study Bible: Rev. xii. 7
Daniel 12:1 :
"The angel here notes two things:
first that the Church will be in great
affliction and trouble at Christ’s coming,
and next that God will send his angel
to deliver it, whom he here calls Michael,
meaning Christ, who is proclaimed by
the preaching of the Gospel. "
-Geneva Bible Translation
 
“Jesus Christ shall appear as his church’s patron
and protector: At that time, when the persecution
is at the hottest, Michael shall stand up, Dan_12:1.
Christ is that great prince, for he is the prince
of the kings of the earth, Rev_1:5.”
-Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible

“…Michael…
I embrace the opinion of those
who refer this to the person of Christ,
because it suits the subject best
to represent him as standing forward
for the defense of his elect people.”
-John Calvin’s Commentary
on Daniel 12:1

“The Archangel, who has all the angels of heaven
under him, and at his command, the Son of God,
is our Lord Jesus Christ.”
-John Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible

“Michael: this we take to be Christ.”
–Matthew Poole’s Commentary
on the Holy Bible

“Christ was the Michael
who then led the embattled host to victory
in the ejectment of Satan and all of his
followers out of the celestial worlds.”
-Godbey Commentary on the NT volume 1 page 85

“Even though God could by one angel
destroy all the world,
yet to assure his children of his love
he sends forth double power, even Michael,
that is, Christ Jesus the head of angels.”
-Geneva Bible Translation
notes on Daniel 10:13

“Michael is called the “archangel” in Jude 9.
This means the chief angel or the head over
the angels. There is but one. Who is he?
He is the one whose voice is heard from heaven
when the dead are raised. (1 Thessalonians 4: 16.)
Whose voice is heard in connection with that event?
The voice of our Lord Jesus Christ. (John 5: 28.)”
  • In his book Daniel and Revelation, Uriah Smith
“Paul says, 'For the Lord himself shall descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice of
the archangel, and with the trump of God”
and the dead in Christ will rise first.’
I Thes. iv. 16. From this text it appears
that when the Lord shall descend with a shout,
his voice will be that of the Archangel,
or head Messenger (Michael); therefore the Lord
must be that head Messenger (Michael).
This text says the dead shall rise at the voice of the Archangel;
and Christ affirms that the dead shall be raised
by his voice. He says…the dead shall hear the voice
of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live."
John v. 26, 28, 29.
  • Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg,
    Christology of the Old Testament
    and a Commentary on the Messianic Predictions,
    1836-9, Vol. IV, pp. 304-5
    (pp. 304 in the T. & T. Clark publication);
    (p. 269 in the Kregel publication).
And let me just clarify first, sorry that the post is so long but thats the entry maximum in the forum I was debating in and that I didn’t clarify in the first post. Second i am Catholic and an apologist. I just found this one particularly difficult to deal with scripturally and would greatly appeciate a catholic rubuttal to this pertinent not only to JWs but others influenced by the idea Jesus is the Arch angel Micheal as the particular person I am debating is not a member of the JWs or any other church for that matter.

Thanks.
 
Trouble with all these posts is the are are one liners and taken out of context.Context is all , especially in Biblical scholarship. to do otherwise is really distorting the true meaning of anyone’s writings.
 
In reading scripture, Jesus and Michael are not the same personage. Jesus is God the Son. Michael the archangel is a created being.

All agree that the scriptures (the Bible) are the inerrant, infallible, word of God. Although written by men, they were written under the inspiration of God. Therefore, calling Jesus and Michael one and the same would contradict John 1:1-3 and Isaiah 44:24.

Again, all agree that the Logos (Word) in John 1:1 is Jesus, therefore if the Logos made everything and nothing was made that He didn’t make, and since Michael is created and the claim is that Jesus and Michael are the same, then how could Jesus (the Logos) have made Himself??? This would very be difficult to explain no matter how liberal a translation of John 1:1-3.

In Isaiah 44:24 God says “…I am the Lord who made all things…”. Now John 1:1 says
the Logos (Jesus) made all things and Isaiah 44:24 says that God says He made all things. Since all agree that there are no lies or contrdictions in the Bible the only conclusion possible is that Jesus is NOT Michael the archangel and that these passages
are proof that Jesus IS God (the Son).

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem
 
Heb.1

1] In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets;
2] but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
3] He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4] having become as much superior to angels as the name he has obtained is more excellent than theirs.
5] **For to what angel did God ever say, **
**“Thou art my Son,
today I have begotten thee”?
Or again, “I will be to him a father,
and he shall be to me a son”?
**6] And again, when he brings the first-born into the world, he says, **“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
****7] Of the angels he says, “Who makes his angels winds,
and his servants flames of fire.”
****8] ****But of the Son he says, **
**"Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever,
the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom.
**9] Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
therefore God, thy God, has anointed thee
with the oil of gladness beyond thy comrades."
10] And, “Thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of thy hands;
11] they will perish, but thou remainest;
they will all grow old like a garment,
12] like a mantle thou wilt roll them up,
and they will be changed.
But thou art the same,
and thy years will never end.”
13] **But to what angel has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand,
till I make thy enemies
a stool for thy feet”?
****14] Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation? **
 
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