Jehovah's Witnesses

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I also have issues regarding their “Jehovah cannot be a triune God” What is their reasoning if John stated that the Word IS God? and that Christ entitles himself as I AM?
Their reasoning is that the first chapter of John has been mistranslated. The correct verbage is the Word was “a” god. And the use of the phrase “I AM” is also incorrectly attributed as a refereance to “I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE” as shown in Exodus… Jehovah is the name of the Father and Jesus is his created son. Jesus was simply stating that he was in being when Abraham was on the earth.

Granted, this translation and reason is wrong according to the Catholic faith (and common sense and the rest of scripture, I might add), but this is the methodology by which JWs deny the absolute divinity of Jesus and thus the triune nature of God. They believe the trinity was a Aristotlian polution of the ‘truth’.

This is detailed in their publication “should you believe in the trinity”

As I have mentioned in other posts, it was their singular position on the trinity that kept me a JW for as long as I was. I believed from WT and personal study that trinity was not biblical and it took me decades to humble myself to say I was wrong. Sorry, Jesus - my Lord and my God!
 
Hi Fidei,

Did you say you went to a convention? You would have noticed the Bible was used constantly. The Watchtower articles constantly quote the Bible to explain or confirm things. (Using various translations freely – before anyone claims we only use the NWT)
The witnesses won’t be very interested in catholic literature, just as they won’t be too interested in what Russel believed 100 years ago or what early WT articles understood.
Only what the Bible really says.
The WT is not inspired by God, nor was Russel a prophet.
The Bible is God’s word. ***Jesus said: “Your word is truth.” ***(John 17:17) The Bible is the foundation.

It seems a common misunderstanding that we believe things because “the WT said…” or “Russel said…”
Hence, I often hear people trying to discredit these, assuming this will erode our faith. They must think that is the basis of our beliefs. Not so.

For example, if you ask a witness: “Why don’t you believe God is a trinity?” The answer will not be: “Because Charles Taze Russel didn’t believe so” or “Because the WT says.”.
The answer will be “Because the Bible says…”
They will have studied the Bible, probably for years, and are now totally convinced the Trinity is not what it teaches. It should be the same for most subjects of difference.

I hope this helps with your discussions. All the best. 👍
Are you saying the Watchtower has NO authority? That cannot be.

If you’re following the Watchtower, and IF the WT doesn’t have God’s “stamp of approval”, then you’re following a human institution! :eek:
 
As I have mentioned in other posts, it was their singular position on the trinity that kept me a JW for as long as I was. I believed from WT and personal study that trinity was not biblical and it took me decades to humble myself to say I was wrong. Sorry, Jesus - my Lord and my God!
I may be the latest to welcome you in our faith but it fills me with joy when you repeated Apostle/St. Thoma’s words—

John 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
 
The witnesses won’t be very interested in catholic literature, just as they won’t be too interested in what Russel believed 100 years ago or what early WT articles understood.
Only what the Bible really says.
The WT is not inspired by God, nor was Russel a prophet.
The Bible is God’s word. ***Jesus said: “Your word is truth.” ***(John 17:17) The Bible is the foundation.
You got that right! How could God’s “spirit-directed prophet or the humble and discreet SLAVE” (the early WTS) gone wrong to a very low level as to believing the power of the pyramid? or (for them) adopt a “pagan” symbol such as the CROSS through the crown in their earliest publications??

Regarding youre statement that the JW’s will never go for catholic literature, nor EVER go to mass… We tackled this before with me seeing it to be unfair that i came to their convention!–yet they never participate even once in the Eucharist! She said: “(after a lifetime of dedication to their “faith”) why would I even give the time to look at other churches when i already have the truth?”.

I guess the best thing i could say at the time was, “IF you have the truth, then it shouldnt be a problem for you observing other christian practices! right?” She just nodded but also doubtfully looking, i said “or are you just afraid of being influenced?” after saying that, she replied: “Even Paul discourages the early Christians to observe “others” saying: Bad association spoil the habits AND avoid participating in pagan beliefs”

now i know what you might be thinking… We (the CC) are not pagan! why have i stopped there? well, the JW’s do certainly associate our beliefs as pagan! i guess this might be my goal now, and i can only reach the end of my crusade when i explain to her the fullness and truth of the CC.
 
Hi Fidei,

Did you say you went to a convention? You would have noticed the Bible was used constantly. The Watchtower articles constantly quote the Bible to explain or confirm things. (Using various translations freely – before anyone claims we only use the NWT)
The witnesses won’t be very interested in catholic literature, just as they won’t be too interested in what Russel believed 100 years ago or what early WT articles understood.
Only what the Bible really says.
The WT is not inspired by God, nor was Russel a prophet.
The Bible is God’s word. ***Jesus said: “Your word is truth.” ***(John 17:17) The Bible is the foundation.

It seems a common misunderstanding that we believe things because “the WT said…” or “Russel said…”
Hence, I often hear people trying to discredit these, assuming this will erode our faith. They must think that is the basis of our beliefs. Not so.

For example, if you ask a witness: “Why don’t you believe God is a trinity?” The answer will not be: “Because Charles Taze Russel didn’t believe so” or “Because the WT says.”.
The answer will be “Because the Bible says…”
They will have studied the Bible, probably for years, and are now totally convinced the Trinity is not what it teaches. It should be the same for most subjects of difference.

I hope this helps with your discussions. All the best. 👍
Since you say the watchtower is not inspired. Of God, how do you explain its complete control over every local congregation. Are you calling your own leaders liers when they call themselves THE governing body…and THE faithfull slave?

If Jehovahs witnesses were realy open to a real search for bible truth, why will they excomunicate anyone who has a different oppinion, even if that oppinion comes from the bible?

If you realy want the truth why is it that you don’t care about your own founders teachings.
Why is it you don’t care how inconsistent watchtower teachings have been and continue to be.

I don’t think a real truth seeker is one who finds a church he or she is comfortable with, and
Ignores all signs that it is NOT THE Church.

JW are comfortable in a church that tells them there is no hell, and they can avoid heaven also if they wish. They get comfortable and don’t WANT to change.

There loyalty is to the Watchtower and not to God.

To say that JW belief is from the bible and not watchtower is a BOLD FACED LIE!
Knowhere in the bible dose it say Jesus is Micheal the ark angel, it came frow watchtower.
Knowhere in the bible dose it say that the end would come before the generation of 1914
And that is why AS USUAL the watchtower has had to change its position.

How hard is 1+1=2? Not hard
So how hard is false teachings+ having to change = not from God…that should not be to hard for anyone to figure out.
 
Are you saying the Watchtower has NO authority? That cannot be.

If you’re following the Watchtower, and IF the WT doesn’t have God’s “stamp of approval”, then you’re following a human institution! :eek:
I didn’t say the WT has no authority. We get a lot of our instruction through the articles of the WT. But always based on what the scriptures say.

Not inspired by God, like the Bible is. It is written by imperfect men. But it seems to have God’s “stamp of approval” as you put it.
Jesus prophesied in Matt 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (KJV)

Well, the full name of the WT includes: “Announcing Jehovah’s Kingdom”. And is one of the main tools we use in teaching the Bible. The Feb 2010 issue is printed in 180 languages and 39.6 million copies were printed. Over 7 million unpaid volunteers are involved in this preaching work. Surely the largest educational campaign in history.

Would Jehovah allow a false religion to bear his name and do the preaching work his son commissioned?
Indeed, how could such a work be done without God’s “stamp of approval?”
 
You got that right! How could God’s “spirit-directed prophet or the humble and discreet SLAVE” (the early WTS) gone wrong to a very low level as to believing the power of the pyramid? or (for them) adopt a “pagan” symbol such as the CROSS through the crown in their earliest publications??

Regarding youre statement that the JW’s will never go for catholic literature, nor EVER go to mass… …
she replied: “Even Paul discourages the early Christians to observe “others” saying: Bad association spoil the habits AND avoid participating in pagan beliefs”
…well, the JW’s do certainly associate our beliefs as pagan!
You mention the cross, once on the cover of the watchtower. Yet is a pagan symbol, - *the New Catholic Encyclopedia *admits: “The cross is found in both pre-Christian and non-Christian cultures, where it has largely a cosmic or natural signification.”
Yet Christendom uses it as it’s most sacred symbol.

And there are many other beliefs and festivals and rituals found in the churches that have their roots in pagan worship. Consider:
“December 25 does not correspond to Christ’s birth, but to the feast of the Natalis Solis Invicti, the Roman sun festival at the solstice.” -New Catholic Encyclopedia,
and
The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “…The philosophy that suited them best was Platonism. … the early Christian philosophers adopted the Greek concept of the soul’s immortality.”
And we all know the word “Trinity” is not in the Bible. Yet is the central doctrine of most “Christian” religions.

Colossians 2:8 warns Christians “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.” (NIV)

With that scripture in mind, do you start to understand why your friend, or any JW would be uncomfortable attending a service in a church where un-Christian doctrines are taught?
 
I mean the above quotes in all kindness.
I disagree. (haven’t quoted all of post #40 to save space)

I just flicked through the first 5 pages of a recent WT and counted 8 quotes from Bible translations other than the NWT. At a recent assembly our district overseer used other translations in (I guess) a third of his quotes.
I have a talk on “people getting out of hell” this week and will be using the KJT to prove the point.

It seems the JW’s use other translations when proving doctrines that differ from Christendom. To show you don’t need the NWT to prove it.
But they certainly prefer the NWT since it is a very accurate one. (waiting for screamed replys)

Quote you: ***Hence the reason they had to come up with their version. Their previous version, the American Standard (as well as the KJV) refuted much of what they teached. This obviously would create a bit of a problem when going door to door when some they would come across some who would be using the same bible and refute what they were saying. ***

Partly true I guess. We are happy to use whatever translation people prefer of course. I have a study who insists on the “Good news” Bible. OK.
But it must have been complicated back in the 1960’s trying to explain (for example) John 1:1 to a Trinitarian. A JW would have to keep getting out a textbook on Greek to show John used *two different words *there.
Or where others translate *the same *Greek word different ways. Tricky.
Easier if the translation is accurate and consistent.

Taking out God’s personal name 7000 times is also not the best way to translate God’s word in my opinion.

Thanks for your reply friend. 🙂
 
But it must have been complicated back in the 1960’s trying to explain (for example) John 1:1 to a Trinitarian. A JW would have to keep getting out a textbook on Greek to show John used *two different words *there.
Or where others translate *the same *Greek word different ways. Tricky.
Easier if the translation is accurate and consistent.

Taking out God’s personal name 7000 times is also not the best way to translate God’s word in my opinion.

Thanks for your reply friend. 🙂
You mean changing God’s Name to something completely unheard of by anybody before? Is that what you meant?

And, you know what? Forgive me, but, I shall believe the Greeks who know their language, and the Greek Orthodox Chruch believing in the Trinity must have some bearings to this argument.

And speaking about accurate and consistant translations:

Biblical criticisms

The Watch Tower Society has been criticised for its refusal to reveal the names and academic credentials of the translators of its New World Translation of the Bible.[264] The society has claimed members of the translation committee wished to remain anonymous in order to exalt only the name of God,[265] whileThe Watchtower said the educational qualifications of the translators were unimportant and that “the translation itself testifies to their qualifications”.[266] However former Governing Body member Raymond Franz has claimed that only one member of the translation committee had sufficient qualifications for the task.[267]
Some Bible scholars have noted that the translation of certain texts may be biased in favour of certain Witness practices and doctrines[264][268][269][270][271] and theologians have also criticised the translators’ insertion of the name Jehovah 237 times in the New Testament in places where the term is not used in the extant Greek manuscripts.[272][273] Watch Tower publications have said the name was “restored” on a sound basis, particularly when New Testament writers used the Greek Kyrios (Lord) when quoting earlier Old Testament scriptures that contained the Tetragrammaton.[274] The translation has also been criticised for favouring literalist interpretation over the poetic qualities of original texts.[275]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah’s_Witness#Biblical_criticisms
 
But it must have been complicated back in the 1960’s trying to explain (for example) John 1:1 to a Trinitarian. A JW would have to keep getting out a textbook on Greek to show John used *two different words *there.
**Or where others translate *the same ***Greek word different ways. Tricky.
Easier if the translation is accurate and consistent.

Taking out God’s personal name 7000 times is also not the best way to translate God’s word in my opinion.

Thanks for your reply friend. 🙂
The bolded statement above just kills me! The reason Jehovah’s Witnesses translate John 1:1 as “a god” is because the Greek definite article ho does not appear before theos. Regardless’s statement above is particularly funny because the WBTS does that exact thing in John 1:1-18. In this passage, the word theos (in one of its forms) appears 7-8 times, depending on the manuscript you’re using. The NWT translates it so that the word appears 8 times. Twice in verses 1 and 18, and once in verses 2, 6, 12, and 13. Let me show you the way they purposefully translate the Scriptures to fit their theology:

John 1:1-18
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God ton theon[sup]1[/sup]], and the Word was a god [just *theos]. This one was in [the] beginning with God ton theon[sup]1[/sup]]. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence by means of him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light is shining in the darkness, but the darkness has not overpowered it. There arose a man that was sent forth as a representative of God [just *theou; here, there is no definite article so the WBTS should have translated it “a god” or “the god,” yet they translate it as the Almighty God]: his name was John. This [man] came for a witness, in order to bear witness about the light, that people of all sorts might believe through him. He was not that light, but he was meant to bear witness about that light. The true light that gives light to every sort of man was about to come into the world. He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him. He came to his own home, but his own people did not take him in. However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s [just *theou; the WBTS did the same thing here, it should be — according to Regardless’ opinion and sound translating — “a god,” etc., but they translate it as the Almighty God] children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God [just *theou, same problem as in verse 12]. So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth. (John bore witness about him, yes, he actually cried out—this was the one who said [it]—saying: “The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”) For we all received from out of his fullness, even undeserved kindness upon undeserved kindness. Because the Law was given through Moses, the undeserved kindness and the truth came to be through Jesus Christ. No man has seen God [just *theon; the same problem as in verses 6, 12, and 13] at any time; the only-begotten god [just *theos; here, finally, the WBTS finally translates this word the same as in the final clause of verse 1: it took long enough!] who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

As you can see, Regardless, the WBTS is not as good a translator as you might think. Since the majority of the time it translates the word theos and derivatives as the Almighty God, it should translate the last “theos” in verse one as the Almighty God, but it can’t because its identity would crumble.

[sup]1[/sup] The definite article ton is just another form of the article ho.
 
Oh I just cannot let this go.

skepticsannotatedbible.com/jw/book.html If you want to know why the JWs get their ideas and how they mis-translated the Bible. I really recommend this site, it explains so much.

There’s plenty out on the web (this site included) as to why the JWs Bible is so very VERY wrong.

And, you know, as long as I’m in this thread, you know what I’ve noticed about former JWs? After they have the grace to understand the flaws of JW teachings, they feel betrayed and lose faith almost altogether, certainly in organized religion.

Regardless, I promise you, I will pray for you that you will understand God’s Church and that you will be strong once you leave the JWs.
 
I disagree. (haven’t quoted all of post #40 to save space)

I just flicked through the first 5 pages of a recent WT and counted 8 quotes from Bible translations other than the NWT. At a recent assembly our district overseer used other translations in (I guess) a third of his quotes.
I have a talk on “people getting out of hell” this week and will be using the KJT to prove the point.

It seems the JW’s use other translations when proving doctrines that differ from Christendom. To show you don’t need the NWT to prove it.
But they certainly prefer the NWT since it is a very accurate one. (waiting for screamed replys)

Quote you: ***Hence the reason they had to come up with their version. Their previous version, the American Standard (as well as the KJV) refuted much of what they teached. This obviously would create a bit of a problem when going door to door when some they would come across some who would be using the same bible and refute what they were saying. ***

Partly true I guess. We are happy to use whatever translation people prefer of course. I have a study who insists on the “Good news” Bible. OK.
But it must have been complicated back in the 1960’s trying to explain (for example) John 1:1 to a Trinitarian. A JW would have to keep getting out a textbook on Greek to show John used *two different words *there.
Or where others translate *the same *Greek word different ways. Tricky.
Easier if the translation is accurate and consistent.

Taking out God’s personal name 7000 times is also not the best way to translate God’s word in my opinion.

Thanks for your reply friend. 🙂
Regardless, you do realize that “God’s personal name” does not appear ANYWHERE in the original NT? You do realize that it is guess work when inserting the name “Jehovah” where it never appeared before? To quote you, “Easier if the translation is accurate and consistent” by going by with what was originally written.

As for the NWT being accurate to you, of course it is. It fits your present belief system. There is no other denomination that uses it. When the “translating committee” inserted “a” when translating John 1, they created a multi god system. Not god-like, as they try to suggest. God(s). This completely conflicts with other parts of the NWT, such as Isaiah 44:6. Below is the NWT of this verse.

“This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God."

John 1 is barely scratching the surface of the forced translations throughout the NWT’s version of the NT.
 
You mention the cross, once on the cover of the watchtower. Yet is a pagan symbol, - *the New Catholic Encyclopedia *admits: “The cross is found in both pre-Christian and non-Christian cultures, where it has largely a cosmic or natural signification.”
Yet Christendom uses it as it’s most sacred symbol.
The Catholic Church did not admit anything, they were merely describing the historical significance of the cross.

Think of it this way–the pagans also have a deity of gods with often an appointed son so, would it mean we are adopting a pagan god with Christ as the son? same with the cross–pagans have crosses before—same with the instrument used in Christ’s execution.

John 20:25 (Thomas doubts Jesus) So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.” - NIV

25So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in (AM)His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, (AN)I will not believe.” - NASB

25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. - KJV
 
In reading their Reasoning book on page 226 they quote Isa.9:6,7 To us a child is born, to us a son is given and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called 'Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end.

When I read this verse it is talking of Jesus the son of God and among other titles he is called Everlasting Father. To me the Everlasting Father is God. I asked my Jw friend if she read this the same way. My point was that if these are the names for Jesus and he is being called everlasting father that means that he must be god too.

Her explanation was that Jesus did so many things for us that that she considered him father. That kind of shoots their teaching of calling no man father. If they don’t think Jesus is God but man then they shouldn’t be calling him eternal father.

If they call him divine then they should call him God. Man is man and divine is God.

Just my thoughts.
Jeanne
 
In reading their Reasoning book on page 226 they quote Isa.9:6,7 To us a child is born, to us a son is given and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called 'Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end.

When I read this verse it is talking of Jesus the son of God and among other titles he is called Everlasting Father. To me the Everlasting Father is God. I asked my Jw friend if she read this the same way. My point was that if these are the names for Jesus and he is being called everlasting father that means that he must be god too.

Her explanation was that Jesus did so many things for us that that she considered him father. That kind of shoots their teaching of calling no man father. If they don’t think Jesus is God but man then they shouldn’t be calling him eternal father.

If they call him divine then they should call him God. Man is man and divine is God.

Just my thoughts.
Jeanne
I find it even more striking that in this passage Christ is called “Mighty God,” what else — besides the obvious — can this mean?! I’d like to hear Regardless’ “explanation” of this verse!
 
I find it even more striking that in this passage Christ is called “Mighty God,” what else — besides the obvious — can this mean?! I’d like to hear Regardless’ “explanation” of this verse!
Me too.
But my friend explains it this way. Only God is called Almighty and never Mighty God. So Jesus being called Mighty God means that he is divine and a god but not God. Make any sense to you? Me neither.

I find the JW reasoning makes no sense to me. They try very hard to force scripture to make it mean what they believe.

Jeanne
 
Me too.
But my friend explains it this way. Only God is called Almighty and never Mighty God. So Jesus being called Mighty God means that he is divine and a god but not God. Make any sense to you? Me neither.

I find the JW reasoning makes no sense to me. They try very hard to force scripture to make it mean what they believe.

Jeanne
This is especially troublesome because they devolve into polytheism . . . which the Lord tells us is not so:

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the Lord the king of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.

If you go to this website and use the search function to search the whole Bible for “besides me there is no God,” you will find many other verses that speak of there being only one God, not many gods. The JWs are painting themselves into a corner pretty quickly . . .
 
This is especially troublesome because they devolve into polytheism . . . which the Lord tells us is not so:

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the Lord the king of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.

If you go to this website and use the search function to search the whole Bible for “besides me there is no God,” you will find many other verses that speak of there being only one God, not many gods. The JWs are painting themselves into a corner pretty quickly . . .
You and I know that there is only ONE God and not God and a lesser god, which the Witnesses think is Jesus but how do we get them to see this.

God is called Mighty God in Isaiah 10.21 so to my thinking God and Jesus are called Mighty God and Almighty God interchangeably, I would like a Witness to clarify this for us.

Jeanne
 
You and I know that there is only ONE God and not God and a lesser god, which the Witnesses think is Jesus but how do we get them to see this.

God is called Mighty God in Isaiah 10.21 so to my thinking God and Jesus are called Mighty God and Almighty God interchangeably, I would like a Witness to clarify this for us.

Jeanne
One thing that I find interesting also is that they believe Jesus is the “human” form of Michael the Archangel. So do they believe all angels are gods too?

BTW, the site I forgot to give you a link to is www.drbo.org.
 
I didn’t say the WT has no authority. We get a lot of our instruction through the articles of the WT. But always based on what the scriptures say.

Not inspired by God, like the Bible is. It is written by imperfect men. But it seems to have God’s “stamp of approval” as you put it.
Jesus prophesied in Matt 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (KJV)

Well, the full name of the WT includes: “Announcing Jehovah’s Kingdom”. And is one of the main tools we use in teaching the Bible. The Feb 2010 issue is printed in 180 languages and 39.6 million copies were printed. Over 7 million unpaid volunteers are involved in this preaching work. Surely the largest educational campaign in history.
When I say authority I mean the WT must be guided by God, else it’s a purely human institution. If it is guided by God, then what it says holds authority over all believers.
Would Jehovah allow a false religion to bear his name and do the preaching work his son commissioned?
Indeed, how could such a work be done without God’s “stamp of approval?”
That question can be dissected a few different ways. First of all, there are various false religions that “bear his name” and do much preaching and printing, the Mormons are one such group that comes to mind. Further, as far as “name” goes, they would argue there is no such terminology from Scripture that Christians are to be known as “Jehova’s Witnesses,” nor other terms like “Kingdom Hall.”
 
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