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yellowbird
Guest
From what I’ve read, he only praised their handling of the OT - he was critical of their NT where they inserted the word “Jehovah” in error.
- Status
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dj_dave
Guest
[SIGN]adelore;They are expected to give 10% of their Gross income to the Kingdom Hall[/SIGN]
AS USUAL YOU ARE SO WRONG ON SO MANY POINTS
(Proverbs 18:13) 13**When anyone is replying to a matter before he hears [it], that is foolishness on his part and a humiliation.*
AS USUAL YOU ARE SO WRONG ON SO MANY POINTS
(Proverbs 18:13) 13**When anyone is replying to a matter before he hears [it], that is foolishness on his part and a humiliation.*
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adstrinity
Guest
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dj_dave
Guest
[SIGN]zach dunn;…"to which one of the angels did he ever say: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father”? And again: “I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son”[/SIGN]
Notice carefully: When did God say this?
(Romans 1:4) but who with power was declared God’s Son according to the spirit of holiness by means of resurrection from the dead—yes, Jesus Christ our Lord,
Jesus was declared God’s *ETERNAL *Son at his resurrection…now never able or needing to die again. Don’t believe it?
Compare:
(Acts 13:32-33) …, 33* that God has entirely fulfilled it to us their children in that he resurrected Jesus; even as it is written in the second psalm, ‘You are my son, I have become your Father this day.*’
GOD never resurrected an angel to ETERNAL LIFE. Only Jesus.
(1 Corinthians 15:42-49) …So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven. 48 As the one made of dust [is], so those made of dust [are] also; and as the heavenly one [is], so those who are heavenly [are] also. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one.
“to which one of the angels did he ever say”—JESUS WAS NO LONGER AN ANGEL when God declared him his Son–he was a “new immortal Creation” (1 Corinthians 15:54-55) 54*But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?” *
What do I mean by incorruption?
Even perfect human bodies are corruptible, that is, they are not beyond ruin or destruction. For this reason, the apostle Paul could say that the resurrected Jesus was thereafter “destined no more to return to corruption” (Ac 13:34), that is, never to return to life in a corruptible human body.
Further, While Adam, even in his perfection, had a corruptible body, it was only because of his rebellion against God that he came into “enslavement to corruption” and passed this condition on to all of his offspring, the human race. (Ro 8:20-22) This enslavement to corruption results from sin or transgression (Ro 5:12) and produces bodily imperfection that leads to degradation, disease, aging, and death. For this reason, the one ‘sowing with a view to the flesh reaps corruption from his flesh’ and does not gain the everlasting life promised those who sow with a view to the spirit.—Ga 6:8; compare 2Pe 2:12, 18,*19.
That is what we believe.
NOW, EXTRA THOUGHT: Would you call Almighty God the “firstborn of all creation”??? Col 1:15
Notice carefully: When did God say this?
(Romans 1:4) but who with power was declared God’s Son according to the spirit of holiness by means of resurrection from the dead—yes, Jesus Christ our Lord,
Jesus was declared God’s *ETERNAL *Son at his resurrection…now never able or needing to die again. Don’t believe it?
Compare:
(Acts 13:32-33) …, 33* that God has entirely fulfilled it to us their children in that he resurrected Jesus; even as it is written in the second psalm, ‘You are my son, I have become your Father this day.*’
GOD never resurrected an angel to ETERNAL LIFE. Only Jesus.
(1 Corinthians 15:42-49) …So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven. 48 As the one made of dust [is], so those made of dust [are] also; and as the heavenly one [is], so those who are heavenly [are] also. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one.
“to which one of the angels did he ever say”—JESUS WAS NO LONGER AN ANGEL when God declared him his Son–he was a “new immortal Creation” (1 Corinthians 15:54-55) 54*But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?” *
What do I mean by incorruption?
Even perfect human bodies are corruptible, that is, they are not beyond ruin or destruction. For this reason, the apostle Paul could say that the resurrected Jesus was thereafter “destined no more to return to corruption” (Ac 13:34), that is, never to return to life in a corruptible human body.
Further, While Adam, even in his perfection, had a corruptible body, it was only because of his rebellion against God that he came into “enslavement to corruption” and passed this condition on to all of his offspring, the human race. (Ro 8:20-22) This enslavement to corruption results from sin or transgression (Ro 5:12) and produces bodily imperfection that leads to degradation, disease, aging, and death. For this reason, the one ‘sowing with a view to the flesh reaps corruption from his flesh’ and does not gain the everlasting life promised those who sow with a view to the spirit.—Ga 6:8; compare 2Pe 2:12, 18,*19.
That is what we believe.
NOW, EXTRA THOUGHT: Would you call Almighty God the “firstborn of all creation”??? Col 1:15
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dj_dave
Guest
[SIGN]adstrinity;What, is it closer to 25%?
Seriously, is it a give what you can type of mentality?[/SIGN]
Glad you asked…
*** g85 12/8 p. 25 Tithing—Is It Necessary? ***
A few years after the resurrection of Jesus, uncircumcised non-Jews were converted to Christianity. “It is necessary to circumcise them and charge them to observe the law of Moses,” some Jewish Christians contended. (Acts 15:5) Others did not agree. So Jesus’ apostles and other experienced Christians met in Jerusalem to discuss the issue. They wanted to discern God’s will. Did he require Christ’s followers to keep the Law of Moses, which included tithing? Experiences were related showing a change in God’s dealings with non-Jews, and this was verified from God’s own prophetic Word. (Acts 15:6-21) What was the decision?
The meeting came to a unanimous conclusion. Christians were not to be burdened with the Law of Moses. There were, though, a few “necessary things” that must be obeyed. Was tithing one? The inspired decision read: “The holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication.” (Acts 15:25, 28, 29) Interestingly, God’s law on tithing was not listed among the “necessary things” for Christians.
Later, the apostle Paul explained that God’s Law covenant with Israel had been abolished by Jesus’ death. “[God] blotted out the handwritten document,” he said, “and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.” (Colossians 2:14) This does not mean that Christians have no law. Rather, there has been a change of law that now involves “the law of the Christ.”—Galatians 6:2; Hebrews 7:12.
The apostle Paul lived in harmony with this change of law. Though working hard in the formation of one congregation after another, he never appealed for payment in the form of tithes. Rather, he was willing to cover his own expenses by working as a tentmaker on a part-time basis. (Acts 18:3, 4) In all honesty he could say: “These hands have attended to the needs of me and of those with me.”—Acts 20:34.
What guidance, then, do Christians have in the matter of giving? How much should you give?
The Christian Way of Giving
Jesus Christ was the most generous man to walk this earth. His example has inspired many to act generously. “Practice giving,” he said, “and people will give to you. They will pour into your laps a fine measure, pressed down, shaken together and overflowing. For with the measure that you are measuring out, they will measure out to you in return.” (Luke 6:38) Are there restrictions here? No. Christians are encouraged to give generously, which may even be more than a tenth if they can afford it.—Luke 18:22; Acts 20:35.
On the other hand, a Christian might suddenly be faced with some urgent expense, perhaps due to an accident or sickness. To give a tenth of his salary under such circumstances might deprive members of his family of the necessities of life. That would be unchristian.—Matthew 15:5-9; 1 Timothy 5:8.
Christian giving is voluntary. It takes into account that each individual has different circumstances in life. “If the readiness is there first,” the Bible says, “it is especially acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what a person does not have.”—2 Corinthians 8:12.
How much, then, should you give? That is a question that you must resolve for yourself. The depth of your own heart appreciation for God—not some predetermined tithing formula—will determine what you give. As the Bible urges: “Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Corinthians 9:7) Tithing was a provision of the Mosaic Law covenant to support Israel’s temple and priesthood. For Christians today, it is neither commanded nor necessary.
Seriously, is it a give what you can type of mentality?[/SIGN]
Glad you asked…
*** g85 12/8 p. 25 Tithing—Is It Necessary? ***
A few years after the resurrection of Jesus, uncircumcised non-Jews were converted to Christianity. “It is necessary to circumcise them and charge them to observe the law of Moses,” some Jewish Christians contended. (Acts 15:5) Others did not agree. So Jesus’ apostles and other experienced Christians met in Jerusalem to discuss the issue. They wanted to discern God’s will. Did he require Christ’s followers to keep the Law of Moses, which included tithing? Experiences were related showing a change in God’s dealings with non-Jews, and this was verified from God’s own prophetic Word. (Acts 15:6-21) What was the decision?
The meeting came to a unanimous conclusion. Christians were not to be burdened with the Law of Moses. There were, though, a few “necessary things” that must be obeyed. Was tithing one? The inspired decision read: “The holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication.” (Acts 15:25, 28, 29) Interestingly, God’s law on tithing was not listed among the “necessary things” for Christians.
Later, the apostle Paul explained that God’s Law covenant with Israel had been abolished by Jesus’ death. “[God] blotted out the handwritten document,” he said, “and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.” (Colossians 2:14) This does not mean that Christians have no law. Rather, there has been a change of law that now involves “the law of the Christ.”—Galatians 6:2; Hebrews 7:12.
The apostle Paul lived in harmony with this change of law. Though working hard in the formation of one congregation after another, he never appealed for payment in the form of tithes. Rather, he was willing to cover his own expenses by working as a tentmaker on a part-time basis. (Acts 18:3, 4) In all honesty he could say: “These hands have attended to the needs of me and of those with me.”—Acts 20:34.
What guidance, then, do Christians have in the matter of giving? How much should you give?
The Christian Way of Giving
Jesus Christ was the most generous man to walk this earth. His example has inspired many to act generously. “Practice giving,” he said, “and people will give to you. They will pour into your laps a fine measure, pressed down, shaken together and overflowing. For with the measure that you are measuring out, they will measure out to you in return.” (Luke 6:38) Are there restrictions here? No. Christians are encouraged to give generously, which may even be more than a tenth if they can afford it.—Luke 18:22; Acts 20:35.
On the other hand, a Christian might suddenly be faced with some urgent expense, perhaps due to an accident or sickness. To give a tenth of his salary under such circumstances might deprive members of his family of the necessities of life. That would be unchristian.—Matthew 15:5-9; 1 Timothy 5:8.
Christian giving is voluntary. It takes into account that each individual has different circumstances in life. “If the readiness is there first,” the Bible says, “it is especially acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what a person does not have.”—2 Corinthians 8:12.
How much, then, should you give? That is a question that you must resolve for yourself. The depth of your own heart appreciation for God—not some predetermined tithing formula—will determine what you give. As the Bible urges: “Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Corinthians 9:7) Tithing was a provision of the Mosaic Law covenant to support Israel’s temple and priesthood. For Christians today, it is neither commanded nor necessary.
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T_More
Guest
Here’s a thought as well since Regardless won’t answer. Whether he’s Almighty or Mighty, how can Christ be any kind of God when YHWH denied there being other gods besides him in Isaiah 44?
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yellowbird
Guest
That is the question I would like answered… all “gods” besides the One True God are false. Do JWs believe Jesus is a false god? Or are there other true gods besides Jehovah? Do JWs worship TWO gods… the Almightly and the Mighty? Is that it? Two Gods? It makes no sense to me and I would love a JW to explain it.
And whoever posted that JWs are required to give X amount of $$ to the Kingdom Hall is incorrect. The organization requires JWs to give of their time but it does not require their $$ any more than any other church that has bills to pay (light bill… building upkeep etc.)
And whoever posted that JWs are required to give X amount of $$ to the Kingdom Hall is incorrect. The organization requires JWs to give of their time but it does not require their $$ any more than any other church that has bills to pay (light bill… building upkeep etc.)
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dj_dave
Guest
[SIGN]yellowbird:That is the question I would like answered… all “gods” besides the One True God are false. Do JWs believe Jesus is a false god? Or are there other true gods besides Jehovah? Do JWs worship TWO gods… the Almightly and the Mighty? Is that it? Two Gods? It makes no sense to me and I would love a JW to explain it.[/SIGN]
Hello yellowbird–long time no see.
I think we can all agree that anything that is worshiped can be termed a god, inasmuch as the worshiper attributes to it might greater than his own and venerates it. A person can even let his belly be a god. (Ro 16:18; Php 3:18, 19) And the Bible makes mention of many gods (Ps 86:8; 1Co 8:5, 6), but it shows that the gods of the nations are valueless gods.—Ps 96:5
Jesus is also “Mighty God” and “Eternal Father.” This does not mean that he usurps the authority and position of Jehovah, who is “God our Father.” (2 Corinthians 1:2) “He [Jesus] . . . gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.” (Philippians 2:6) He is called Mighty God, not Almighty God.
Jesus never thought of himself as God Almighty, for he spoke of his Father as “the only true God,” that is, the only God who should be worshiped. (John 17:3; Revelation 4:11) In the Scriptures, the word “god” can mean “mighty one” or “strong one.” (Exodus 12:12; Psalm 8:5; 2 Corinthians 4:4) Before Jesus came to earth, he was “a god,” “existing in God’s form.” After his resurrection, he returned to an even higher position in the heavens. (John 1:1; Philippians 2:6-11) Furthermore, the designation “god” carries an additional implication. Judges in Israel were called “gods”—once by Jesus himself. (Psalm 82:6; John 10:35) Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed Judge, “destined to judge the living and the dead.” (2 Timothy 4:1; John 5:30) Clearly, he is well named Mighty God.
The key to understanding *our viewpoint *of this matter is found in the context of the scriptures in question.
At Isaiah 43:10, Jehovah said: “Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.” But those words do not prove that Jesus is God. The point is that Jehovah had no predecessor, that no god existed before him, for he is eternal. There will be no god after Jehovah because he will always exist and will have no successors as the Supreme Sovereign. **DID YOU NOTICE WHAT THE CONTEXT WAS? WHY WOULD ISAIAH HAVE TO GO TO HIS OWN PEOPLE TO EXPLAIN WHO THE TRUE GOD IS?
HE WAS TELLING THE WAYWARD ISRAELITES THAT THE GODS OF THE LAND THAT THEY WERE WORSHIPING WERE NOT REAL LIVE GODS**
IT WAS LIKE A UNIVERSAL COURTCASE NOTICE:
“‘Bring your controversial case forward,’ says Jehovah. ‘Produce your arguments.’”—ISAIAH 41:21.
“Let the nations all be collected together at one place, and let national groups be gathered together. Who [of their gods] is there among them that can tell this? Or can they cause us to hear even the first things? Let them [their gods] furnish their witnesses, that they may be declared righteous, or let them hear and say, ‘It is the truth!’” (Isaiah 43:9)
(Isaiah 43:10-12) .“YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.” 12*“I myself have told forth and have saved and have caused [it] to be heard, when there was among YOU no strange [god]. So YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I am God.
–Yet, Jehovah did produce others that he himself called gods, as the Scriptures show by saying concerning certain humans: “I myself have said, ‘You are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High. Surely you will die just as men do; and like any one of the princes you will fall!’” (Psalm 82:6,7) Similarly, the Word was a god created by Jehovah, but that did not make Jesus equal to Almighty God at any time. (Remember: We are not the only ones that say “a god” primitivechristians.com/Bible-Files/wisdom.htm )
Hope that helps you to see OUR viewpoint.
Hello yellowbird–long time no see.
I think we can all agree that anything that is worshiped can be termed a god, inasmuch as the worshiper attributes to it might greater than his own and venerates it. A person can even let his belly be a god. (Ro 16:18; Php 3:18, 19) And the Bible makes mention of many gods (Ps 86:8; 1Co 8:5, 6), but it shows that the gods of the nations are valueless gods.—Ps 96:5
Jesus is also “Mighty God” and “Eternal Father.” This does not mean that he usurps the authority and position of Jehovah, who is “God our Father.” (2 Corinthians 1:2) “He [Jesus] . . . gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.” (Philippians 2:6) He is called Mighty God, not Almighty God.
Jesus never thought of himself as God Almighty, for he spoke of his Father as “the only true God,” that is, the only God who should be worshiped. (John 17:3; Revelation 4:11) In the Scriptures, the word “god” can mean “mighty one” or “strong one.” (Exodus 12:12; Psalm 8:5; 2 Corinthians 4:4) Before Jesus came to earth, he was “a god,” “existing in God’s form.” After his resurrection, he returned to an even higher position in the heavens. (John 1:1; Philippians 2:6-11) Furthermore, the designation “god” carries an additional implication. Judges in Israel were called “gods”—once by Jesus himself. (Psalm 82:6; John 10:35) Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed Judge, “destined to judge the living and the dead.” (2 Timothy 4:1; John 5:30) Clearly, he is well named Mighty God.
The key to understanding *our viewpoint *of this matter is found in the context of the scriptures in question.
At Isaiah 43:10, Jehovah said: “Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.” But those words do not prove that Jesus is God. The point is that Jehovah had no predecessor, that no god existed before him, for he is eternal. There will be no god after Jehovah because he will always exist and will have no successors as the Supreme Sovereign. **DID YOU NOTICE WHAT THE CONTEXT WAS? WHY WOULD ISAIAH HAVE TO GO TO HIS OWN PEOPLE TO EXPLAIN WHO THE TRUE GOD IS?
HE WAS TELLING THE WAYWARD ISRAELITES THAT THE GODS OF THE LAND THAT THEY WERE WORSHIPING WERE NOT REAL LIVE GODS**
IT WAS LIKE A UNIVERSAL COURTCASE NOTICE:
“‘Bring your controversial case forward,’ says Jehovah. ‘Produce your arguments.’”—ISAIAH 41:21.
“Let the nations all be collected together at one place, and let national groups be gathered together. Who [of their gods] is there among them that can tell this? Or can they cause us to hear even the first things? Let them [their gods] furnish their witnesses, that they may be declared righteous, or let them hear and say, ‘It is the truth!’” (Isaiah 43:9)
(Isaiah 43:10-12) .“YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.” 12*“I myself have told forth and have saved and have caused [it] to be heard, when there was among YOU no strange [god]. So YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I am God.
–Yet, Jehovah did produce others that he himself called gods, as the Scriptures show by saying concerning certain humans: “I myself have said, ‘You are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High. Surely you will die just as men do; and like any one of the princes you will fall!’” (Psalm 82:6,7) Similarly, the Word was a god created by Jehovah, but that did not make Jesus equal to Almighty God at any time. (Remember: We are not the only ones that say “a god” primitivechristians.com/Bible-Files/wisdom.htm )
Hope that helps you to see OUR viewpoint.
Z
zach_dunn
Guest
It must be very convenient to be a selective reader and replier . . .
You really don’t understand this. If you take this approach, only selecting one or two Scriptures out of the context of the entire Bible, you end up with crazy beliefs such as this. . . . If you believe Christ was “made” God’s eternal Son at His Resurrection, you create a contradiction in the Bible:
Matthew 3:16-17
And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
Luke 3:21-22
Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove, and a voice came from heaven, “Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased.”
So when was it? At His Baptism or His Resurrection? I’ll tell you: He was declared God’s Son at both. But, this does not mean He hasn’t been God’s Son for eternity; let me demonstrate this buy analogy:
A person is on trial for murder. In court we say a person is innocent until proven guilty. Assuming the person did in fact commit the murder, was the person guilty during the time the prosecution was attempting to prove that the person was guilty? Of course! When the prosecution has made their case, the murderer is declared guilty and thus convicted. This declaration does not make the person guilty, it reveals that they are.
Much like the above scenario, God’s declaration that Christ is His Son is a revelation to the world. Jesus has been God’s Son for eternity which is evident from passages such as Jn 1:1.
See the contradiction you’ve created above and its explanation.
So we agree, Christ is not an angel.
So are you saying that up until His Baptism or Resurrection (is it both?) Christ was a human/spirit hybrid?!
Is this basically your spiel about Christ not having an actual body after His Resurrection? If it is, I’d be happy to refute it.
Z
zach_dunn
Guest
And it is in error. It doesn’t fit with the Bible or the Early Church, sorry!
This is completely compatible in Trinitarian thought. Notice how Christ is “firstborn” and not “first-created.” This is evident from the following verses:
Colossians 1:16-17
For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him. And he is before all, and by him all things consist.
The NWT erroneously translates this passage in the following way:
Colossians 1:16-17
(B)ecause by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist.
What’s up with the “[other]s”??? They do not appear in the Greek, the WBTS put them in there to make their theology work, they tried to “correct” the Bible because it does not teach their doctrine.
To understand what Paul means when he says Christ is the firstborn of creation, I suggest you read what St. Thomas Aquinas has to say on the matter. You can read it here.
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yellowbird
Guest
dj dave ~ Thank you for your reply to my question. Putting aside Jesus as a “god” - only the Almighty God is worthy of worship, correct? So I got to thinking about all the places in the NT where people worshiped Jesus… and places where it talks about the angels worshiping Him… a quick search pulled up several.
So I looked up the New World Translation online and I see that it’s authors changed the word from “worship” to obeisance (to render honor, respect) when it’s speaking of Jesus… but when speaking of Jehovah - the word “woship” is used. The Greek word for BOTH cases is the same: proskuneo.
Why did the authors of the NWT translate that word differently?
So I looked up the New World Translation online and I see that it’s authors changed the word from “worship” to obeisance (to render honor, respect) when it’s speaking of Jesus… but when speaking of Jehovah - the word “woship” is used. The Greek word for BOTH cases is the same: proskuneo.
Why did the authors of the NWT translate that word differently?
S
SteveVH
Guest
Until you grasp the true meaning of the Trinity you will never understand the nature of Jesus. He IS the true God, together with the Father and the Holy Spirit. I won’t bother you with explaining it again, many previous posts have done just fine. The fact that your translation of the Bible must insert some words and change others in order to fit the preconceived ideas found in your organization should tell you something.
D
dj_dave
Guest
[SIGN]zach dunn;
Matthew 3:3
This, in fact, is the one spoken of through Isaiah the prophet in these words: “Listen! Someone is crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah, YOU people! Make his roads straight.’”
Mark 1:2-3
Just as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: “(Look! I am sending forth my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way listen! someone is crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah, YOU people, make his roads straight.’”
Luke 3:4
[J]ust as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet: “Listen! Someone is crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah, YOU people, make his roads straight.’”
Isaiah 40:3
Listen! Someone is calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up the way of Jehovah, YOU people! MAKE the highway for our God through the desert plain straight.”
This entire prophecy is referring to Christ. It is somewhat funny because where other translations put “Lord”, the NWT puts “Jehovah”. This is clear evidence, more clear than any other translation, that Christ is Jehovah. These examples could be multiplied as well, but I think I’ve demonstrated my point.[/SIGN]
This verse is speaking about John the Baptist preparing the way for Jesus…Our explanation: That since Jesus was Jehovah’s representative, preparing the way for Jesus is considered the same as preparing the way for Jehovah. End of discussion? Well there is more to consider on this—
A similar situation occurs at Matthew 25:35-40 where Jesus says Christians fed him, watered him and clothed him. These Christians ask ‘When did we do these things to you?’ Jesus’ reply of “to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.” Here we see Jesus said Christians did these things to HIM yet in reality they did it to his followers. no one concludes from Matthew 25 these followers ARE Jesus so why think Jesus is Jehovah because of a similar account? Could Trinitarians be using a double standard in interpreting these two accounts?
Preparing the people to receive Jesus is the same as preparing them to receive Jehovah without meaning Jesus is Jehovah. Note Jesus’ words at Matthew 10:40, “He that receives you receives me also, and he that receives me receives him also that sent me forth.”
Notice again your quote from above…, Isaiah 40:3 does not mean Jesus is Jehovah by noting Jesus’ own quote of Isaiah 40:3, “Look! I myself [Jehovah] am sending forth my messenger [John] before your [Jesus] face, who will prepare your way ahead of you.” (Matthew 11:10) Here Jesus quotes the same prophecy but clearly says Jehovah would send John ahead to prepare the way for Jesus, not Himself! So Jesus’ own quote of the scripture in question shows he did not think he was Jehovah.
Matthew 3:3
This, in fact, is the one spoken of through Isaiah the prophet in these words: “Listen! Someone is crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah, YOU people! Make his roads straight.’”
Mark 1:2-3
Just as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: “(Look! I am sending forth my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way listen! someone is crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah, YOU people, make his roads straight.’”
Luke 3:4
[J]ust as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet: “Listen! Someone is crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah, YOU people, make his roads straight.’”
Isaiah 40:3
Listen! Someone is calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up the way of Jehovah, YOU people! MAKE the highway for our God through the desert plain straight.”
This entire prophecy is referring to Christ. It is somewhat funny because where other translations put “Lord”, the NWT puts “Jehovah”. This is clear evidence, more clear than any other translation, that Christ is Jehovah. These examples could be multiplied as well, but I think I’ve demonstrated my point.[/SIGN]
This verse is speaking about John the Baptist preparing the way for Jesus…Our explanation: That since Jesus was Jehovah’s representative, preparing the way for Jesus is considered the same as preparing the way for Jehovah. End of discussion? Well there is more to consider on this—
A similar situation occurs at Matthew 25:35-40 where Jesus says Christians fed him, watered him and clothed him. These Christians ask ‘When did we do these things to you?’ Jesus’ reply of “to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.” Here we see Jesus said Christians did these things to HIM yet in reality they did it to his followers. no one concludes from Matthew 25 these followers ARE Jesus so why think Jesus is Jehovah because of a similar account? Could Trinitarians be using a double standard in interpreting these two accounts?
Preparing the people to receive Jesus is the same as preparing them to receive Jehovah without meaning Jesus is Jehovah. Note Jesus’ words at Matthew 10:40, “He that receives you receives me also, and he that receives me receives him also that sent me forth.”
Notice again your quote from above…, Isaiah 40:3 does not mean Jesus is Jehovah by noting Jesus’ own quote of Isaiah 40:3, “Look! I myself [Jehovah] am sending forth my messenger [John] before your [Jesus] face, who will prepare your way ahead of you.” (Matthew 11:10) Here Jesus quotes the same prophecy but clearly says Jehovah would send John ahead to prepare the way for Jesus, not Himself! So Jesus’ own quote of the scripture in question shows he did not think he was Jehovah.
D
dj_dave
Guest
The New Thayers Greek-Lexicon of the New Testament, Joseph Henry Thayer, p.548:
“[proskuneo]…to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence…hence in the N.T. by kneeling or prostration to do homage(to one)or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication…”.
Vines Expository Dictionary says under this word:
“1.PROSKUNEO…,to make obeisance, do reverence to(from pros, towards, and kuneo, to kiss)is the most frequent word rendered to worship.”
A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, by G.Abbott-Smith, 3rd edition, p.386 says:
"[pros-kuneo],…(< kuneo,to kiss),…to make obeisance, do reverance to, worship.
A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, by William F.Arndt and F.Wilbur Gingrich, 1957, says on pages 723,724, under proskuneo:
"…used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person, and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground, etc, …(fall down) worship, do obeisance to, prostrate oneself before, do reverence to, welcome respectfully.
WOULD you want proskuneo to mean worship here? Revelation 3:9 this is Jesus talking.
King James Bible
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
While some translators use the word “worship” in the majority of cases where proskyneo describes persons’ actions toward Jesus, the evidence does not warrant one’s reading too much into this rendering. Rather, the circumstances that evoked the obeisance correspond very closely with those producing obeisance to the earlier prophets and kings. (Compare Matthew 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 20:20 with 1 Samuel 25:23, 24; 2 Samuel 14:4-7; 1 Kings 1:16; 2 Kings 4:36, 37.)
"The very expressions of those involved often reveal that, while they clearly recognized Jesus as God’s representative, they rendered obeisance to him, not as to God or a deity, but as “God’s Son,” the foretold “Son of man,” the Messiah with divine authority.- Matt. 14:32, 33; 28:5-10, 16-18; Luke 24:50-52; John 9:35, 38. While earlier prophets and also angels had accepted obeisance, Peter stopped Cornelius from rendering such to him. And the angel (or angels) of John’s vision twice stopped John from doing so, referring to himself as a "fellow slave"and concluding with the exhortation to “worship God.”-Acts 10:25, 26; Rev. 19:10; 22:8, 9.
it would seem Christ’s coming had brought in new relationships affecting standards of conduct toward others of God’s servants. He taught his disciples that “one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers . . . your Leader is one, the Christ.” (Matt. 23:8-12) For it was in him that the prophetic figures and types found their fulfillment, even as the angel told John that “the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying.” (Rev. 19:10)
Jesus was David’s Lord, the greater than Solomon, the prophet greater than Moses. (Luke 20:41-43; Matt. 12:42; Acts 3:19-24) The obeisance rendered those men prefigured that due Christ. Peter therefore rightly refused to let Cornelius make too much of him. So, too, John, by virtue of having been declared righteous or justified by God as an anointed Christian, called to be a heavenly son of God and a member of his Son’s kingdom, was in a different relationship to the angel(s) of the revelation than were the Israelites to whom angels earlier appeared. As the apostle Paul had written: “Do you not know that we shall judge angels?” (1 Cor. 6:3) The angel(s) evidently recognized this change of relationship when rejecting John’s obeisance. On the other hand, as I mentioned in a earlier comment, Christ Jesus has been exalted by his Father to a position second only to God, so that “in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”- Phil. 2:9-11; compare Daniel 7:13, 14, 27."
D
dj_dave
Guest
Would you want “other” removed from here too?
(Colossians 1:20) 20*and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens.
…if so then Satan and his demons will also be reconciled to God by Jesus’ blood.
see: web.archive.org/web/20031212161823/mysite.freeserve.com/newworldtranslation/colossians1.15.htm
I have a feeling you won’t take the time to read this…but it explains quite alot–it even features many critics veiws.
F
Fidei
Guest
Mostly quoted from Tim Staples:
The insertion of [others] is not the only phrase the WTS mistranslates.
“a god” is also an issue here, in original Greek, they never used indefinite article-- “a” instead, directly referring to the word as God himself! even a 1st year ancient Greek student could say this is a fabrication.
“I AM” (Yahweh’s name) which the JW’s translate as “before Abraham was I have been” is an absolute butchering of scripture.
They purposely changed this because Christ entitles himself as I AM–just as when Yahweh introduced himself to Moses, he refers to Himself as I AM
and guess what-- God, is alpha and omega in the OT but Christ is also alpha and omega in revelations!
I honestly dont know what the JW’s answer would be if we ask: why was Christ put to death? wasn’t it because he claimed to be God? When he refers to himself as THE son of God not A son of God?
Let’s examine the example-- Mark had a son, Mark Jr. and he is human just as his father is, but would you re-butt saying, “NO he’s not human! he’s a SON of a human!”…
OF COURSE he is human!
Being God is his nature… not A god but THE God because, it would contradict the scripture in Isaiah as having other gods besides Yahweh.
note that only GOD is worshiped, that’s why, to make Christ a “humanly” god, just as the judges were called gods, the JW’s reduce Christ as being honored-“obeisance” rather than worshiped.
or else, Thomas or John the baptist would have worshiped a false God when they said:
Thomas: “you are my LORD and my GOD!”
J the B: “Prepare and make the way straight, for the God of Israel is coming”
I cannot comprehend why J the B would say “God” rather than “God’s son”!
The insertion of [others] is not the only phrase the WTS mistranslates.
“a god” is also an issue here, in original Greek, they never used indefinite article-- “a” instead, directly referring to the word as God himself! even a 1st year ancient Greek student could say this is a fabrication.
“I AM” (Yahweh’s name) which the JW’s translate as “before Abraham was I have been” is an absolute butchering of scripture.
They purposely changed this because Christ entitles himself as I AM–just as when Yahweh introduced himself to Moses, he refers to Himself as I AM
and guess what-- God, is alpha and omega in the OT but Christ is also alpha and omega in revelations!
I honestly dont know what the JW’s answer would be if we ask: why was Christ put to death? wasn’t it because he claimed to be God? When he refers to himself as THE son of God not A son of God?
Let’s examine the example-- Mark had a son, Mark Jr. and he is human just as his father is, but would you re-butt saying, “NO he’s not human! he’s a SON of a human!”…
OF COURSE he is human!
Being God is his nature… not A god but THE God because, it would contradict the scripture in Isaiah as having other gods besides Yahweh.
note that only GOD is worshiped, that’s why, to make Christ a “humanly” god, just as the judges were called gods, the JW’s reduce Christ as being honored-“obeisance” rather than worshiped.
or else, Thomas or John the baptist would have worshiped a false God when they said:
Thomas: “you are my LORD and my GOD!”
J the B: “Prepare and make the way straight, for the God of Israel is coming”
I cannot comprehend why J the B would say “God” rather than “God’s son”!
F
Fidei
Guest
Groeber? correct me if im wrong,
he claimed, that angels or spirits presented words before him as he was translating. now that is an absolute, forbidding in regards to scripture, that “you should not fear the ones who write on scripture with the assistance of spirit mediums” lest they would be accused of false prophecy.
Groeber certainly followed the paths of other false prophets, as having conjured up spirit mediums in translating! John Smith had a personal revelations through an angel, and even Ellen white!
To add more, Franz, has not had formal study of biblical greek, barely finishing 1st year of study, and self-taught in Hebrew, commissions a group of members from the Brooklyn society to translate the bible and none had studies whatsoever in biblical languages.
It came out in 1954, with the translator in the bible simply puts out “Jehovah”. I was only through an investigation of Court manuscripts where the real translators were revealed. When asked to testify in court, they weren’t even able to speak plain Hebrew!
he claimed, that angels or spirits presented words before him as he was translating. now that is an absolute, forbidding in regards to scripture, that “you should not fear the ones who write on scripture with the assistance of spirit mediums” lest they would be accused of false prophecy.
Groeber certainly followed the paths of other false prophets, as having conjured up spirit mediums in translating! John Smith had a personal revelations through an angel, and even Ellen white!
To add more, Franz, has not had formal study of biblical greek, barely finishing 1st year of study, and self-taught in Hebrew, commissions a group of members from the Brooklyn society to translate the bible and none had studies whatsoever in biblical languages.
It came out in 1954, with the translator in the bible simply puts out “Jehovah”. I was only through an investigation of Court manuscripts where the real translators were revealed. When asked to testify in court, they weren’t even able to speak plain Hebrew!
Y
yellowbird
Guest
dj dave ~ Is it true that the New World Translations printed prior to the 1970s used the word “worship” in refrence to Jesus and it’s only been the later printings that have changed the word to “obesience?” How do you know they won’t change back in the future? If the Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot even decide whom to WORSHIP… isn’t that a major red flag? It doesn’t get more fundamental than that?
Y
yellowbird
Guest
I’m quoting myself because I thought about this during my prayer time at mass today. dj dave ~ as a Catholic there is such a feeling of confirmation that I am in the True Church because my beliefs are the same beliefs the Early Church fathers held. We only need to look to the historical writings of those who lived within two hundred years from the time Jesus walked the earth.
From Ignatius of Antioch: “[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is” (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).
From Tatian the Syrian: “We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man” (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).
From Irenaeus: “Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth” Against Heresies [A.D. 189, 3:19:1]
From Clement of Alexandria: “The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning—for he was in God—and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things” (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]).
My faith has been the faith of Christians for 2,000 years. You can’t even trace back a fundamental aspect of your faith (Is it proper to worship Jesus Christ) 40 years. What does that tell you?
Russell obviously believed that Jesus is worthy of worship… as did Judge Rutherford. What makes you think that the JWs in power in 1971 when that belief was cast aside are correct? Especially in light of the fact that they were the same group of men who were certain the end would come 5 years later in 1976. Clearly they were wrong about that - what makes you certain they weren’t also wrong about Jesus receiving worship???
And what was God doing all that time… from shortly after Jesus died until 1971 allowing Christians to WORSHIP Jesus Christ without stopping them?? He didn’t even tell Russell or Rutherford, who claimed to be His channel of communication, that worshiping Jesus was wrong.
This not worshiping Jesus is a new belief within MY own short lifetime. In the timeline of history since Christ it’s as if it was decided 5 minutes ago… and yet you’d ask us to embrace this new belief?? To ignore a fundamental belief held by Christians for 2,000 years and believe men from the 1970s with a failed track record. Is that what you’d have us believe? Obviously we will not.
What makes us sad is that you do.
D
dj_dave
Guest
Along with my previous comments…One example is Heb 1:6–here is a small excerpt from a 1970 WT explaining to a question a reader had…
*** w70 11/15 p. 704 Questions From Readers ***
to understand Hebrews 1:6, which shows that even the angels render “worship” to the resurrected Jesus Christ? While many translations of this text render pro•sky•néo as “worship,” some render it by such expressions as “bow before” (The Bible—An American Translation) and “pay homage” (The New English Bible). No matter what English term is used, the original Greek remains the same and the understanding of what it is that the angels render to Christ must accord with the rest of the Scriptures.
If the rendering “worship” is preferred, then it must be understood that such “worship” is only of a relative kind. For Jesus himself emphatically stated to Satan that “it is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of pro•sky•ne΄o], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Matt. 4:8-10; Luke 4:7, 8) True, Psalm 97, which the apostle evidently quotes at Hebrews 1:6, refers to Jehovah God as the object of the ‘bowing down,’ and still this text was applied to Christ Jesus. (Ps. 97:1, 7) ***However, the apostle previously had shown that the resurrected Christ became the “reflection of [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Heb. 1:1-3) ***Hence, if what we understand as “worship” is apparently directed to the Son by angels, it is in reality being directed through him to Jehovah God, the Sovereign Ruler, “the One who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters.”—Rev. 14:7; 4:10, 11; 7:11, 12; 11:16, 17; compare 1 Chronicles 29:20; Revelation 5:13, 14.
On the other hand, the renderings “bow before” and “pay homage” (instead of “worship”) are in no way out of harmony with the original language, either the Hebrew of Psalm 97:7 or the Greek of Hebrews 1:6, for such translations convey the basic sense of both sha•hhah΄ and pro•sky•ne΄o.
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