Jehovah's Witnesses

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Dear buc_fan33,

Many who take issue with Jehovah’s Witnesses’ “New World Translation” of John 1:1 (as, “a god”) often miss the point that the Grammatical construction there is * a singular anarthrous predicate noun preceding the verb, and subject noun (implied or stated) *; and not just that the noun theos (in the third clause) lacks the Greek definite article or because it is simply a predicate nominative.

For other examples of the same Greek construction, please examine the few following verses within your own prefered translation of the Bible and see whether they had inserted either an “a” or “an” there:

Mark 6:49
Mark 11:32
John 4:19
John 6:70
John 8:44a
John 8:44b
John 9:17
John 10:1
John 10:13
John 10:33
John 12:6

At each of the above verses, identity of the one being discussed was not at issue; no, but rather, the class of the individual was.

Therefore, rather than changing their translation “to support their belief that Jesus is not God,” Jehovah’s Christian witnesses are, in fact, following just what others for centuries have done, that is, when translating verses of the Bible which display the very same syntax as that found in those other verses.

But now, when it comes to John 1:1, rather than let God’s Word speak for itself, Trinitarian influenced scholars seem to have forgotten their own guidelines in this and allowed their preconceived theological bias to guide them in their translation of this verse - thus, in fitting with their own ideology, we more commonly read, “and the Word was God.”

Along these very lines, a very good observation is attested to by the following:

“Here I may observe, that, to persons uninitiated in the doctrines of Christianity, this passage [John 1:1c], and other obscure passages of the present Gospel, must have appeared unintelligible; yet by the disciples of the evangelist, already acquainted with his language on such subjects, they would be easily understood. Their previous knowledge led them to the true explanation. At the present day, the readers of Scriptures have generally imbibed certain religious notions from education before they sit down to the task; and then, unconsciously, perhaps, but very naturally, they explain every difficulty in accordance with those notions. Hence it happens that men of every persuasion find the confirmation of their peculiar opinions in the sacred volumes: for, in fact, it is not the Scripture that informs them, but they that affix their own meaning to the language of Scripture.”

Taken From: Lingard, John (b.?-d.?). A New Version of The Four Gospels with Notes Critical and Explanatory, by a Catholic. (London, England: J. Booker, 1836), p. 330. BS2553 .L5 / 06-30318.

When I quote Mr. Lingard, as Catholic (and, therefore, Trinitarian), his intended purpose may very well have been to address the non-Trinitarian treatment of this verse during his day. Interestingly, when Lingard speaks of those “persons uninitiated in the doctrines of Christianity,” no doubt he would have it in mind to include those individuals not ‘initiated’ into the teaching of the Trinity doctrine. Therefore, by these very words he has unwittingly just admitted to being guided in his own rendering of this verse by the very thing he has critisized others. Otherwise, as a principal, his astute observation can be aptly applied to any translator or commentator, with any level of learning – and, most certainly, not to the exclusion of Trinitarian scholars/theologians themselves.

You may also want to examine the contents of these related links as well:

“Some Interesting Observations About the Trinity, Perhaps Not So Commonly Known”

“Some Powerful Reasoning’s About the Trinity, Not So Easily Dismissed”
Code:
Agape, Alan.
[email]john1one@earthlink.net[/email] 
[Good Companion Books](http://www.goodcompanionbooks.com)
Your research on predicate nominative is simply outdated.
forananswer.org/John/Jn1_1.htm
  1. Philip B. Harner, “Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns Mark 15:39 and John 1:1” (Journal of Biblical Literature, March 1973), 92:75-87.
    aomin.org/JOHN1_1.html#15
 
It is contradictory, why? because the saint said it right!, and the bible illustrate it correctly. Over the head is not Over the hands. If its really over the hand, then saint would said so right?

and in the nail prints. The scripture said nails. and not nail prints. the scripture said it correctly and its inspired, no literal translation is needed. and the JW interpretation is wrong.
Dear marlo,

I respect your right to disagree.

Agape, Alan.
john1one@earthlink.net
“What About John 1:1?”
Good Companion Books
 
Hi alan,

read the scripture again, using your own interpretation, dont forget to pray first before reading…

**Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the **nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe

look, hands and nails, both plural, dont forget the “finger” singular, in to the print of the nails

now if the print of the nails means '**nail prints in ‘his hands and his feet.’ as you were saying. **can the saint put one finger in to Christ hand and feet at the same time, will he say, lord lift your leg and i will place my finger on your hand and feet at the same time, now thats a silly interpretation does it?

because the saint only meant his hands
"“Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails.” (John 20:25) That could have meant a nail through each hand, or the plural “nails” might have reference to nail prints in ‘his hands and his feet.’ (See Luke 24:39.)”
 
Actually, although regular and frequent use of any punctuation with the Koine Greek did not fully develope until centuries later, it may interest you to know that a few marks did appear within some of the earliest manuscripts of the “New Testament.”

With regard to Luke 23:43, there is this:

“Early Greek manuscripts had no punctuation, but occasionally it is found in some MSS, and this is the case here, where B (the Vatican 1209) has a lower point (hypostigme) after SHMERON. Regarding the punctuation used by this MS, it was noted that in general “B has the higher point as a period, the lower point for a shorter pause.” (A. T. Robertson, “A Grammar of the Greek New Testament,” Nashville, 1934, p. 242) The ink of the uncial letters in codex B was at one time a faded brown color, and in a later century a scribe traced over many of the letters and punctuation marks. However, in Luke 23:43 the ink of the lower point is the same as the letters of the text, and thus it can be traced back to the fourth century C.E.”

Taken from: Luke 23:43 - Where does the comma go?

On this, you may wish to also examine:

Luke 23:43 - Where should the comma be placed?

Agape, Alan.
john1one@earthlink.net
Good Companion Books
In context, your quote from Robertson concerns classical greek.

Later on the same page Robertson clearly writes, “But still we can not tell how much, if any, use the N. T. writers themselves made of punctuation points.”

Also, according to Robertson it was a middle point, NOT a lower point that equaled a comma.

:rolleyes:
 
Dear Mr. Marsh:

Whereas you had said,
Your research on predicate nominative is simply outdated.
forananswer.org/John/Jn1_1.htm
  1. Philip B. Harner, “Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns Mark 15:39 and John 1:1” (Journal of Biblical Literature, March 1973), 92:75-87.
    aomin.org/JOHN1_1.html#15
Actually, if you will take note again of what I had said,…

“Many who take issue with Jehovah’s Witnesses’ “New World Translation” of John 1:1 (as, “a god”) often miss the point that the Grammatical construction there is * a singular anarthrous predicate noun preceding the verb, and subject noun (implied or stated) *; and not just that the noun theos (in the third clause) lacks the Greek definite article or because it is simply a predicate nominative.

…you would have seen that, with respect to this issue concering ‘predicate nominatives,’ each of the links you cite do not specifically address what I am discussing above, that is, ‘singular anarthrous predicate nouns preceding the verb, and subject noun (implied or stated).’

Furthermore, if you had examined the scriptures I listed (Mark 6:49; Mark 11:32; John 4:19; John 6:70; John 8:44a; John 8:44b; John 9:17; John 10:1; John 10:13; John 10:33; John 12:6), you would have seen that, when it comes to those which follow the exact same syntax as that found within John 1:1, each one of these had inserted the English indefinite article.

But now, when it comes to John 1:1, rather than let God’s Word speak for itself, Trinitarian influenced scholars seem to have forgotten their own translation guidelines (as at those other verses) and have allowed their preconceived theological bias to guide them in their translation of this verse - thus, in fitting with their own ideology, we more commonly read, “and the Word was God.”

Agape, Alan.
john1one@earthlink.net
“What About John 1:1?”
Good Companion Books
 
To acknowledge Jesus as the Christ, or Jesus as Lord, which is essentially the same thing, was the one fundamental article of the Christian faith. Much, indeed, was involved in this confession; but it is now, I suppose, fully established and generally admitted that the Jews in the time of Christ had no expectation that the coming Messiah would be an incarnation of Jehovah, and no acquaintance with the mystery of the Trinity.
What kind of reasoning is this? Of course the Jews werent expecting the Messiah to come in the way He did, that is why the Apostles were so confused. Yet after the resurrection we read things like the “Word became flesh and dwelt among us” which is an astonishing revelation for a Messiah who was thought to be merely a earthly king with great success on the battlefield.[The Trinity] is not clearly or explicitly taught anywhere in Scripture, yet it is widely regarded as a central doctrine, indispensable to the Christian faith. In this regard, it goes contrary to what is virtually an axiom of biblical doctrine, namely, that there is a direct correlation between the scriptural clarity of a doctrine and its cruciality to the faith and life of the church
That is if you believe Jesus left the Bible behind when He ascended to Heaven and left people to fend for themselves. The NT was never intended to be a theology textbook, it was guidelines along with successors of the Apostles to help explain and defend against error. What is amazing, however, is that this confession of God as One in Three took place without significant struggle and without controversy by a people [the Jews] indoctrinated for centuries in the faith of the one God
This is a joke considering the Gospels were almost entirely about the fact Jesus came and caused a scandal because of the way He came and the divine authority he acted with. This very much was a scandal/struggle. Can you imagine the Jews just getting over the fact the Messiah was crucified?Why is it that whenever there was an occasion for discussing the identity of the one, true God, the authors and participants of Scripture always spoke of him as “the Father” and never as “the triune God”?
This argument fails to realize that calling God “the Father” was revolutionary, especially along side saying the Father has an “only begotten Son”. That is clear evidence that a new distinction was being made in the NT times.Now if Jesus were the infinite God, would he be preached as Messiah? Messiah was to be only king of the Jews, not God. Would the apostles deliberately ignore the awful [meaning, great] assertion of the Deity of Jesus, and place all their emphasis on the comparatively trivial Messiahship?
This person has failed to understand a key aspect of the NT. The Messiah did NOT DO as was expected, he came to DIE!! There was nothing “trivial” about this Messiahship for it went beyond a human kingdom (Acts 2:33-36). The first teachers of Christianity were never charged by the Jews (who unquestionably believed in the strict unity of God), with introducing any new theory of the Godhead.
That is false by the plain fact John DEFINES the “Anti-Christ” as someone who does not believe Jesus is the only begotten SON of the Father. Speaking of God using terms like “Father” and “Son” are very much new terminology.
Catholic Dude,

This may sound harsh and intolerant, but it is precisely the reason why I don’t debate, contend, reason or litigate with a JW. I cut to the quick. When they arrive at my door and I immediately establish who they are, I say, “Jesus Christ is come in the flesh”. This is usually sufficient to turn them on their heels and vacate my porch or, it makes the spirit within them cautious not to utter any blasphemous or heretical mumbo jumbo.
The instant they say something about the Divinity of Christ, the virginity of Mary the primacy and lineage of the Pope, that is blasphemous or heretical…I resort to dropping down to my knees, making the sign of the cross and invoking our Lord Jesus Christ and all of this - in Latin. The spirit within them makes them pack up and leave, unceremoniously and short of jumping thru the nearest window.
They are not only NOT christians…they are anti-christian.

The time is near and short. No time to mince words.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
 
Johnoneone, Although the term sola scriptura is not used, when asked what their authority is for what they believe, they will inevitably tell you it is scripture alone.
And, yet they learn their arguments from the watchtower publications.

“It should be expected that the Lord would have a means of communication to his people on the earth, and he has clearly shown that the magazine called The Watchtower is used for that purpose.” (1939 Yearbook of Jehovah’s Witnesses, p. 85.)

“Make haste to identify the visible theocratic organization of God that represents his king, Jesus Christ. It is essential for life. Doing so, be complete in accepting its every aspect.” The Watchtower, October 1, 1967, p. 591.

“We cannot claim to love God, yet deny his word and channel of communication.” The Watchtower, October 1, 1967, p. 591.

No matter where we may live on earth, God’s Word continues to serve as a light to our path and a lamp to our roadway as to our conduct and beliefs. (Ps. 119:105) But Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his “faithful and discreet slave,” made up of spirit anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do. The Watchtower; 12/1/1981, p. 27.

Only this organization functions for Jehovah’s purpose and to his praise. To it alone God’s Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book. The Watchtower; July 1, 1973, pp. 402.

“We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ organization.” (The Watchtower, Feb. 15, 1981.)

"…people cannot see the Divine Plan in studying the Bible by itself…if he then lays them [Scripture Studies] aside and ignores them and goes to the bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had merely read the Scripture Studies with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the Scriptures." The Watchtower, Sept. 15, 1910, p. 298.

“Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible.” The Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1967. p. 587.

“The world is full of Bibles, which Book contains the commandments of God. Why, then, do the people not know which way to go? Because they do not also have the teaching or law of the mother, which is light. Jehovah God has provided his holy written Word for all mankind and it contains all the information that is needed for men in taking a course leading to life. **But God has not arranged for that Word to speak independently or to shine forth life-giving truths by itself. His Word says: “Light is sown for the righteous.” (Ps. 97:11) It is through his organization that God provides this light **that the proverb says is the teaching or law of the mother. If we are to walk in the light of truth we must recognize not only Jehovah God as our Father but his organization as our mother.” The Watchtower, May 1, 1957, p. 274.

Channel to understanding the Bible… All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the “greatly diversified wisdom of God” can become known only through Jehovah’s channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave. The Watchtower; 10/1/1994; p. 8.

"From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah’s people those, who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude…They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such ‘Bible reading,’ they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom’s clergy were teaching 100 years ago…" The Watchtower, August 15, 1981.

“We should eat and digest and assimilate what is set before us, without shying away from parts of the food because it may not suit the fancy of our mental taste…We should meekly go along with the Lord’s theocratic organization and wait for further clarification, rather than balk at the first mention of a thought unpalatable to us and proceed to quibble and mouth our criticisms and opinions as though they were worth more than the slave’s provision of spiritual food. Theocratic ones will appreciate the Lord’s visible organization and not be so foolish as to put against Jehovah’s channel their own human reasoning and sentiment and personal feelings.” The Watchtower, February 1, 1952, pp. 79-80.
 
“After being nourished to our present spiritual strength and maturity, do we suddenly become smarter than our former provider and forsake the enlightening guidance of the organization that mothers us? ‘Forsake not the law of thy mother’ (Prov. 6:20-23).” The Watchtower, February 1, 1952, p. 80.

carm.org/jw/jwquotes.htm
 
Concering Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New World Translation, it may interest some to know that there have been others who believe it is actually quite good:
Benjamin Kedar received his PhD from Yale in 1969, but not in Hebrew. He is professor of Jewish History at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. No doubt, Professor Kedar is knowledgeable about Hebrew, but he is not a recognized scholar in Biblical Languages.

In a form letter written to those asking for clarification of his apparent endorsement of the NWT, Professor Kedar writes:

“A translation is bound to be a compromise, and as such it’s details are open to criticism; this applies to the NWT too. In the portion corresponding to the Hebrew Bible, however, I have never come upon an obviously erroneous rendition which would find it’s explanation in a dogmatic bias.”

It will be noted that Professor Kedar limits his comments to the Hebrew Bible. Few scholars have complained about the Watchtower inserting its dogma into the Hebrew Scriptures. Indeed, since the OT contains far fewer explicit Scriptures teaching the orthodox doctrines that the Watchtower denies - Christ’s deity; the existence of the soul; and hellfire - it is not surprising that the NWT Hebrew Scriptures are relatively bias-free.

Professor Kedar, of course, says nothing of the relative merits of the NWT Christian Greek Scriptures.

Professor Kedar’s preference for the NWT Hebrew Scriptures is not shared by other scholars. H. H. Rowley, an eminent Old Testament scholar from England, wrote regarding the first volume of the New World Translation Of The Hebrew Scriptures:

“The translation is marked by a wooden literalism which will only exasperate any intelligent reader - if such it finds - and instead of showing reverence for the Bible which the translators profess, it is an insult to the Word of God” (Rowley, H.H., “Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Translation of the Bible” The Expository Times 67:107, Jan. 1956).

forananswer.org/Top_JW/Scholars%20and%20NWT.htm#Kedar

The New World Translation
What the Scholars Really Said

forananswer.org/Top_JW/Scholars%20and%20NWT.htm

What leading Greek scholars say about the NWT:

Dr. Bruce M. Metzger, professor of New Testament at Princeton University, calls the NWT “a frightful mistranslation,” “Erroneous” and “pernicious” “reprehensible” “If the Jehovah’s Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists.” (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature)

Dr. William Barclay, a leading Greek scholar, said “it is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest.”

British scholar H.H. Rowley stated, “From beginning to end this volume is a shining example of how the Bible should not be translated.”

“Well, as a backdrop, I was disturbed because they (Watchtower) had misquoted me in support of their translation.” (These words were excerpted from the tape, “Martin and Julius Mantey on The New World Translation”, Mantey is quoted on pages 1158-1159 of the Kingdom interlinear Translation)

Dr. Julius Mantey , author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, calls the NWT “a shocking mistranslation.” “Obsolete and incorrect.” “It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 ‘The Word was a god.’”

“I have never read any New Testament so badly translated as The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of The Greek Scriptures… it is a distortion of the New Testament. The translators used what J.B. Rotherham had translated in 1893, in modern speech, and changed the readings in scores of passages to state what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe and teach. That is a distortion not a translation.” (Julius Mantey , Depth Exploration in The New Testament (N.Y.: Vantage Pres, 1980), pp.136-137)

the translators of the NWT are “diabolical deceivers.” (Julius Mantey in discussion with Walter Martin)

bible.ca/Jw-NWT.htm
 
In context, your quote from Robertson concerns classical greek.

Later on the same page Robertson clearly writes, “But still we can not tell how much, if any, use the N. T. writers themselves made of punctuation points.”

Also, according to Robertson it was a middle point, NOT a lower point that equaled a comma.

:rolleyes:
Dear Mr. Marsh,

Thank you for that bit of information, I will certainly look into it.

On the other hand, this fact remains:

“The ink of the uncial letters in codex B [Vatican 1209] was at one time a faded brown color, and in a later century a scribe traced over many of the letters and punctuation marks. However, in Luke 23:43 the ink of the lower point is the same as the letters of the text, and thus it can be traced back to the fourth century C.E.”

Taken from:

Where does the comma go?

And again, with regard to your claim that Robertson was speaking about the lower point in connection with “classical greek,” see again:

“B [Vatican 1209] has the higher point as a period, the lower point for a shorter pause.” (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament, Nashville, 1934, p. 242, italics mine.)

Also, see an actual photo-copy of the image of Vatican Manuscript 1209 for Luke 23:43 at:

Where should the comma be placed?

Agape, Alan.
john1one@earthlink.net
“What About John 1:1?”
Good Companion Books
 
Dear buc_fan33,

With respect to your observation above, I sometimes like to use statements from other sources as well:

“The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.…it is not directly and immediately the word of God.”

Taken from: The New Catholic Encyclopedia. Prepared by an Editorial Staff at the Catholic University of America, Washington, D.C. (New York, New York: McGraw-Hill, 1967-c1989), vol. XIV [14], p. 299 (italics theirs). BX841 .N44 1967 / 66-022292.
We are NOT impressed by watchtower type misquotes,

culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=293&Itemid=8

Encyclopaedia of Anti-Trinitarian Deceptive quoting!
bible.ca/trinity/trinity-jw-deceptions.htm#author

bible.ca/trinity/trinity-JW-SYBTT-Watchtower-BOOKLET-Should-You-Believe-the-Trinity-EXPOSED-REFUTED-pagan-section.htm

We have given many quotes from early church fathers that show they believed in deity of Christ and in the trinity elsewhere.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=193716
 
Rbt Southwell;3024701:
Dear Robert,

By the very nature of your question, you have already concluded something that is not true. Jehovah’s Christian witnesses have not ‘changed the wording and arrangement of the Bible to suit their world view.’

No, but it is because of our efforts to accquire a more accurate translation of the Bible (along with other factors) which has caused a change in our “world view.”

Agape, Alan.
john1one@earthlink.net
Good Companion Books
Ah, you have added the word “other” to Col 1, when no manuscript anywhere in greek has the word “other” or “another” in it.
google.com/search?hl=en&q=new+world+translation+Col+1%3A15-18
 
…The New World Translation
What the Scholars Really Said

forananswer.org/Top_JW/Scholars%20and%20NWT.htm

What leading Greek scholars say about the NWT:

“Well, as a backdrop, I was disturbed because they (Watchtower) had misquoted me in support of their translation.” (These words were excerpted from the tape, “[Walter] Martin and Julius Mantey on The New World Translation”, Mantey is quoted on pages 1158-1159 of the Kingdom interlinear Translation)

Dr. Julius Mantey, author* of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, calls the NWT “a shocking mistranslation.” “Obsolete and incorrect.” “It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 ‘The Word was a god.’”

“I have never read any New Testament so badly translated as The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of The Greek Scriptures… it is a distortion of the New Testament. The translators used what J.B. Rotherham had translated in 1893, in modern speech, and changed the readings in scores of passages to state what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe and teach. That is a distortion not a translation.” (Julius Mantey, Depth Exploration in The New Testament (N.Y.: Vantage Pres, 1980), pp.136-137)

the translators of the NWT are “diabolical deceivers.” (Julius Mantey in discussion with Walter Martin)

bible.ca/Jw-NWT.htm
Dear Mr. Marsh,

For brevity of time and space, I will speak to just one of whom you have listed, Julius Mantey. (Maybe another one later).

To read more of Mantey’s comments against the New World Translation of John 1:1c, readers here may wish to also visit:

middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/deity10.htm

Mantey said: “The translation suggested in our Grammar for the disputed passage is, ‘the Word was deity.’” He is not telling the whole story.

"(3) With the Subject in a Copulative Sentence. The article sometimes distinguishes the subject from the predicate in a copulative sentence. In Xenophon’s Anabasis, 1:4:6, emporion d’ en to korion, and the place was a market, we have a parallel case to what we have in John 1:1, kai theos en ho logos, and the word was deity.* The article points out the subject in these examples. Neither was the place the only market, nor was the word all of God, as it would mean if the article were also used with θες. As it stands, the other persons of the Trinity may be implied in θες.**

μρτυς γρ μο στιν θες
God is my witness. Rom[ans] 1:9.
See also: M[ar]k 6:35; 1 J[oh]n 4:8.

In a convertible proposition, where the subject and predicate are regarded as interchangeable, both have the article (cf. 1 Cor[inthians] 15:56). If the subject is a proper name, or a personal or demonstrative pronoun, it may be anarthrous [meaning, without the article] while the predicate has the article (cf. J[oh]n 6:51; Ac[ts] 4:11; 1 J[oh]n 4:15)." – Manual Grammar, pp. 148 and 149, no. 148, paragraph (3).
Code:
—  ❖  —
*Instead of translating John 1:1c, “and the word was deity,” in keeping with their own example – that is, with their translation of Xenophon’s statement as, “and the place was a market” – Dana and Mantey should have translated John 1:1c as, “and the word was a deity,” or even, “and the word was a god.” Only either of these two renderings would be true, legitimate parallel’s to their own example – whereas, “was deity” is not!

**Although Dana and Mantey’s argument is formed to defend their reasoning, that is, as to why they believed that John could have not used the Greek definite article before his second use of theos (in that, according to them, this would have implied that “the word [was] all of God…[meaning] the other persons of the Trinity”), there is, in all actuality, something more to be considered here; and this is the simple fact that “the Word” was just said (in clause b) to have been with “all of God,” that is, “with [the] God” – where “the [Greek definite] article [was] also used with [the Greek for “God”] θες” there. In other words, if we were to abide by their reasoning, since clause b tells us that “the word was with God,” and because the Greek definite article does precede the use of theos there, this would mean that “the Word” was in the presence of, as they say, all “the other persons of the Trinity.”

Added to this, if their theory were indeed correct, then, for the very same reason why “the Son” could not have been called ho theos in John 1:1c, then “the Father” couldn’t either in John 1:1b. Whereas, the fact is, throughout the “New Testament,” “the Father” is regularly identified as ho theos – and this, many times over.
Code:
Agape, Alan.
[email]john1one@earthlink.net[/email]
"What About John 1:1?"
[Good Companion Books](http://www.goodcompanionbooks.com)
 
Dear Mr. Marsh,

Thank you for that bit of information, I will certainly look into it.

On the other hand, this fact remains:

“The ink of the uncial letters in codex B [Vatican 1209] was at one time a faded brown color, and in a later century a scribe traced over many of the letters and punctuation marks. However, in Luke 23:43 the ink of the lower point is the same as the letters of the text, and thus it can be traced back to the fourth century C.E.”

Taken from:

Where does the comma go?

And again, with regard to your claim that Robertson was speaking about the lower point in connection with “classical greek,” see again:

“B [Vatican 1209] has the higher point as a period, the lower point for a shorter pause.” (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament, Nashville, 1934, p. 242, italics mine.)

Also, see an actual photo-copy of the image of Vatican Manuscript 1209 for Luke 23:43 at:

Where should the comma be placed?

Agape, Alan.
john1one@earthlink.net
“What About John 1:1?”
Good Companion Books
Fact remains that the apostles did not use commas. It was hundreds of years later when copists added such.
The position of a comma is a modern editorial decision. Early Greek manuscripts, e.g. the Chester Beatty papyri, had no punctuation of any kind. The parallel in Luke 19:9 suggests that SHMERON in Luke usually comes at the beginning of the sentence of clause, hence "Today you will be with
me …
Hope this note helps.
Edgar Krentz
Prof. of New Testament, Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
1100 East 55th Street, Chicago, IL 60615
TEl.: Office: 312-256-0752; Home: 312-947-8105
ibiblio.org/bgreek/test-archives/html4/1996-07/14015.html
 
Dear Readers,

Sad to say, this message is being sent to inform you all that my discussions with you here will now cease; and this is for reasons which I believe, even if elucidated, you would not fully understand nor appreciate. (That was not meant as an insult either.)

Otherwise, I would hope and pray that our exchanges here (that is, if they do, indeed, remain posted within this discussion group) will encourage some to take the initiative to seek out from Jehovah God Himself the correct way in which we are to think upon His person/being. (Proverbs 2; 1 Tim. 2:5; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17.)

Think what you will, say what you believe, I yet remain with Christian Agape towards you all.

Respectfully I leave you, Alan.
john1one@earthlink.net
“What About John 1:1?”
Good Companion Books
 
The Jehovahs Witnesses, did not translate the name of YHWH to English to form Jehovah, nor did they knew it first, nor God revealed it to them, The English name Jehovah was first used by a Catholic priest as God’s name. In their own publication, the hebrew name is written on a statue of an Angel, Truly if God’s name in english is Jehovah, he revealed it not to the Jehovah’s Witnesses but to the Catholic Church.

Amen.
Dear Readers,

Sad to say, this message is being sent to inform you all that my discussions with you here will now cease; and this is for reasons which I believe, even if elucidated, you would not fully understand nor appreciate. (That was not meant as an insult either.)

Otherwise, I would hope and pray that our exchanges here (that is, if they do, indeed, remain posted within this discussion group) will encourage some to take the initiative to seek out from Jehovah God Himself the correct way in which we are to think upon His person/being. (Proverbs 2; 1 Tim. 2:5; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17.)

Think what you will, say what you believe, I yet remain with Christian Agape towards you all.

Respectfully I leave you, Alan.
john1one@earthlink.net
“What About John 1:1?”
Good Companion Books
 
John/Alan, I can’t help but feel like I, for one, failed you. This was to be my final message also-I’m a bit tired. I’ll pray that you become a more open seeker so that you can someday exit that ivory watchtower. There is such a vast store of knowledge and understanding and love which Catholic thinkers and believers have built up over the centuries but you’ll miss the whole feast by getting sidetracked into thinking you can pick up a Catholic book and then proceed to tell the Catholic Church what it means. But I know, I used to do it too.
 
All this hullabaloo about “where does the comma go?” in Jesus’s statement to the Good Thief on the Cross.

It’s simple.
The expression Jesus used over and over and over and over again in the New Testament was a common Jewish expression of a solemn statement, rendered variously as,
“Truly I say unto you,”
“Verily, Verily, I say unto thee,”
“I solemnly tell you,”
but NEVER:
“Truly I tell you today, yada yada yada”

Thus, it is properly rendered,
Truly I tell you, Today you will be with me in Paradise.

Obfuscation over and done with. End of story.
 
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