"Jenga" Mass last night (with rubrics instead of wood-bricks)

[japhy]

Has anyone here read “Why Catholics Can’t Sing” by Thomas Day? Chapter 5 is entitled “Ego Renewal”, and it talks (among other things) about the increase in priest-performers, who interject themselves and their whole personality into their “performance” of the Mass. Keep that in mind.

I attended Mass last night with a small group of young adults (Catholics in our mid-20’s to early 30’s). It took place at a chapel (dedicated to the Miraculous Medal) at a seminary, so one of the priests in residence said Mass for us. The chapel is old enough that the seating is antiphonal – that is, the pews are arranged along the sides of the church facing each other. (Examples: execulink.com/~dtribe/blog/antiphonal.jpg and wm.edu/about/wren/wrenchapel/images/chapelplot.jpg) There were only five of us (plus the priest), so we all (including the priest) sat in a group, in the pews up on the level of the sanctuary.

I was to read the First Reading (from Romans 14), and I was curious where I would read from – there was a podium at the opposite end of the chapel, and I had suggested moving it up near the sanctuary. This wouldn’t be necessary, I was told by “Bill” (name changed). Bill – that is, Fr. Bill – said I could read it from where I was. Bill had asked, before Mass, whether he should put on his vestments. Thankfully, he did. Before Mass, he told us that since we were such a small group, we should feel free to relax, and to interrupt him to ask questions at any point, and that he would probably be interjecting at times to explain what he was doing (I suppose as the “commentator” of GIRM 105b). Throughout the rest of this post, [bracketed text in bold red] are things I wanted to ask, but held back because of charity.

Mass began seated, not standing [GIRM 43, 124], in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. [Why don’t we stand, Fr. Bill?] The altar was not kissed [GIRM 123] – Bill hadn’t approached it. [Why didn’t you kiss the altar, Fr. Bill?] Bill told us about the readings we would hear (which is acceptable, since it’s following GIRM 31). The Act of Penitence [GIRM 51, 125] was skipped (we went directly to the Kyrie, without doing A, B, or C of the Act of Penitence). Then the opening prayer. Then I read the First Reading, sitting in my chair (rather than (standing?) at the ambo [GIRM 58]). Then I passed the Lectionary behind me to the woman who read the Responsorial Psalm from her chair (not the ambo, nor would I consider where we were a “suitable place” [GIRM 61])… she wasn’t very comfortable with the whole thing either, I might add.

When she finished, I turned around to receive the Lectionary back from her and hand it to Bill who was sitting next to me. Instead, he told her to give it to whomever she wished (such as the man sitting on the other side of Bill) to read the Gospel. [Why don’t you read the Gospel, Fr. Bill?] So a layman [GIRM 58], sitting (as we all were) [GIRM 60, 131], read the Gospel. [Why don’t we stand, Fr. Bill?] The Lectionary was not blessed with the sign of the cross [GIRM 134], it was not kissed [GIRM 134], and I highly doubt the layman (or Bill, for that matter) said the prescribed prayers before [GIRM 132, 175] and after [GIRM 134] reading it.

At this point, after the Gospel, I really wanted to turn to Bill and ask So who shall we choose to give the homily? But he gave it (or did he give in?). And when he was done, he asked for our (name removed by moderator)ut to add. Only one person offered. Then we prayed the general intercessions.

(Continued below)

 

[japhy]

And then Bill invited us up to stand at the altar Notitiae 17:61]. [Why are we standing at the altar, Fr. Bill?] He asked me to bring the paten with the bread to the altar, and I did; he then started talking about what would we would be doing, how Jesus is present in the Eucharist, and that we acting communally make him present. I’m not sure exactly what he said. I was bringing the chalice to the altar, and then I stood to the side with the water and wine. Bill said, “Oh, an altar boy”, and told me I could leave them on the altar, because we were about to do something.

He explained he would pass the bread around to each one of us so we could pray quietly over it to ask God to let us partake of it and be part of it. [Why… just, why, Fr. Bill?] He handed me the paten, and I prayed privately “For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world” three times (from the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, for reparation for sins committed against the Most Blessed Sacrament), and passed the paten to the woman who read the Psalm. (She told me later that she didn’t do anything, because she was so uncomfortable.) After Bill said (silently, which is fine) the prescribed prayers (“Blessed are you…”) over the bread, he noticed there was no purificator. After one was finally found, he prayed over the wine, and then asked me to help him wash his hands, which I did.

So there we were, standing around the altar. After “Holy Holy Holy”, I knelt. I grimaced when he said “Let us proclaim our faith” after the consecration of the wine – changing the words of the liturgy is strictly forbidden, and I wonder if his failure to say “mystery” is the gravest abuse of all that happened at that Mass. [Why did you say it that way, Fr. Bill?] I stood up again for the “Our Father”. He truncated the “Deliver us, Lord…” prayer. *[Why didn’t you say all of the Libera nos, Fr. Bill?] I was pleasantly surprised to see him looking down at the Host and Chalice when he prayed the “Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your Apostles…”. I knelt again after the “Lamb of God”. Bill said his own preface at this point, instead of “This is the Lamb of God…”, so of course (as is always the case when these words get changed), he had to let us know when he was done by “intoning” the response: “Lord…” after which we completed: “I am not worthy…” He communicated, then we did (with an EMHC for the Chalice). (I was very grateful he did not have us receive at the same time as he did, as concelebrants would. I would have absolutely lost it.) He waited until after Mass to purify the vessels, which is ok, but I really don’t understand why priests wait (or why some priests have other people do it). [Why not purify the vessels now, Fr. Bill?] Then we all sat down again, and he said the closing prayer (seated, like us [GIRM 43]), the blessing, and dismissal. No one had interrupted him to ask him questions.

Then he said, “Oh, you know what we forgot?” I was thinking, “What else could he possibly have omitted?” He said, “We didn’t have a collection! I’ll need to check the books, to make sure this was still a valid Mass.” [Why on earth would you wonder that, Fr. Bill?] I could not help but think that was directed at me. See, I was visibly anxious throughout the Mass; I’d been curious about where the readings would happen, I was formal with Fr. Bill (calling him “Father”), I had my hands folded, my head bowed most of the time, I was the only one who knelt at the Eucharistic Prayer, etc.

Perhaps, before Mass, when he asked what our occupations were, I should have said, “I’m an intern with the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments!”

Please pray for Fr. Bill (God will know who you’re talking about) and the other priests of his order (we’d already had one Mass with another… the tattered cuffs of his jeans peaking out beneath his alb and stole (sans chasuble), seated prayer, “communal” homily, etc.). Also pray for me, if you could, because my charity’s at an all-time low right now.

 

[benedictgal]

This wasn’t a Mass at all, just mass confusion. This needs to be reported to your local bishop right away as this is just a complete and total disregard for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Document everything carefully. If need be, just copy and paste your post as you compose your letter to the Bishop. He needs to know what is happening in his diocese.

 

[VociMike]

Please tell me good ol’ Fr. Bill is nearing retirement.

 

[japhy]

Please tell me good ol’ Fr. Bill is nearing retirement.

Most of the half-dozen or so priests at the seminary are merely in residence – a lot of them are quite elderly – and assist nearby parishes (most of which have only one priest) saying Mass on the weekends and a couple days during the week. When “Bill” was asked what he does, he joked that the other priests “keep me in the basement”. I’m not sure he’s ever said a Mass at my parish, but I think I he was present for my parish’s 25th anniversary Mass a couple weeks ago, because he looks familiar.

He had mentioned also that he was glad to be able to say Mass that way, not like “at Queenship [of Mary]”, my parish – because he had free rein, I suppose.

 

[japhy]

Document everything carefully. If need be, just copy and paste your post as you compose your letter to the Bishop. He needs to know what is happening in his diocese.

I think I’ll do just that.

Why on earth would a priest mutilate the liturgy like this? I really have no good answer that doesn’t simply cast doubt on the intentions of the priest. He acted like we wouldn’t know better (that is, we wouldn’t know things couldn’t be done the way he did them, or how things are supposed to be done). Or maybe he thought we longed to be freed from the rigid norms and rubrics of the liturgy so we could relax and sit back and enjoy the ride/Mass.

 

[mercygate]

Has anyone here read “Why Catholics Can’t Sing” by Thomas Day? Chapter 5 is entitled “Ego Renewal”, and it talks (among other things) about the increase in priest-performers, who interject themselves and their whole personality into their “performance” of the Mass. Keep that in mind.

I attended Mass last night with a small group of young adults (Catholics in our mid-20’s to early 30’s). It took place at a chapel (dedicated to the Miraculous Medal) at a seminary, so one of the priests in residence said Mass for us. The chapel is old enough that the seating is antiphonal – that is, the pews are arranged along the sides of the church facing each other. (Examples: execulink.com/~dtribe/blog/antiphonal.jpg and wm.edu/about/wren/wrenchapel/images/chapelplot.jpg) There were only five of us (plus the priest), so we all (including the priest) sat in a group, in the pews up on the level of the sanctuary.

I was to read the First Reading (from Romans 14), and I was curious where I would read from – there was a podium at the opposite end of the chapel, and I had suggested moving it up near the sanctuary. This wouldn’t be necessary, I was told by “Bill” (name changed). Bill – that is, Fr. Bill – said I could read it from where I was. Bill had asked, before Mass, whether he should put on his vestments. Thankfully, he did. Before Mass, he told us that since we were such a small group, we should feel free to relax, and to interrupt him to ask questions at any point, and that he would probably be interjecting at times to explain what he was doing (I suppose as the “commentator” of GIRM 105b). Throughout the rest of this post, [bracketed text in bold red] are things I wanted to ask, but held back because of charity.

Mass began seated, not standing [GIRM 43, 124], in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. [Why don’t we stand, Fr. Bill?] The altar was not kissed [GIRM 123] – Bill hadn’t approached it. [Why didn’t you kiss the altar, Fr. Bill?] Bill told us about the readings we would hear (which is acceptable, since it’s following GIRM 31). The Act of Penitence [GIRM 51, 125] was skipped (we went directly to the Kyrie, without doing A, B, or C of the Act of Penitence). Then the opening prayer. Then I read the First Reading, sitting in my chair (rather than (standing?) at the ambo [GIRM 58]). Then I passed the Lectionary behind me to the woman who read the Responsorial Psalm from her chair (not the ambo, nor would I consider where we were a “suitable place” [GIRM 61])… she wasn’t very comfortable with the whole thing either, I might add.

When she finished, I turned around to receive the Lectionary back from her and hand it to Bill who was sitting next to me. Instead, he told her to give it to whomever she wished (such as the man sitting on the other side of Bill) to read the Gospel. [Why don’t you read the Gospel, Fr. Bill?] So a layman [GIRM 58], sitting (as we all were) [GIRM 60, 131], read the Gospel. [Why don’t we stand, Fr. Bill?] The Lectionary was not blessed with the sign of the cross [GIRM 134], it was not kissed [GIRM 134], and I highly doubt the layman (or Bill, for that matter) said the prescribed prayers before [GIRM 132, 175] and after [GIRM 134] reading it.

At this point, after the Gospel, I really wanted to turn to Bill and ask So who shall we choose to give the homily? But he gave it (or did he give in?). And when he was done, he asked for our (name removed by moderator)ut to add. Only one person offered. Then we prayed the general intercessions.

(Continued below)

Why the instruction? Weren’t you all Catholics?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I think I’ll do just that.

Why on earth would a priest mutilate the liturgy like this? I really have no good answer that doesn’t simply cast doubt on the intentions of the priest. He acted like we wouldn’t know better (that is, we wouldn’t know things couldn’t be done the way he did them, or how things are supposed to be done). Or maybe he thought we longed to be freed from the rigid norms and rubrics of the liturgy so we could relax and sit back and enjoy the ride/Mass.

I think you would be better off not attending Mass at that place or by that priest anymore.

Jim

 

[benedictgal]

Most of the half-dozen or so priests at the seminary are merely in residence – a lot of them are quite elderly – and assist nearby parishes (most of which have only one priest) saying Mass on the weekends and a couple days during the week. When “Bill” was asked what he does, he joked that the other priests “keep me in the basement”. I’m not sure he’s ever said a Mass at my parish, but I think I he was present for my parish’s 25th anniversary Mass a couple weeks ago, because he looks familiar.

He had mentioned also that he was glad to be able to say Mass that way, not like “at Queenship [of Mary]”, my parish – because he had free rein, I suppose.

To my knowledge, there is no such permission. I suspect that Rome would not even give an indult for that. They would probably just show him the door.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

To my knowledge, there is no such permission. I suspect that Rome would not even give an indult for that. They would probably just show him the door.

My guess is Rome wouldn’t do a thing to this priest, because with the current shortage, they’re grateful to have the priest they have.

Jim

 

[benedictgal]

My guess is Rome wouldn’t do a thing to this priest, because with the current shortage, they’re grateful to have the priest they have.

Jim

They may not do that; however, they will remind him that he is bound to follow the rubrics and norms of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[palmas85]

I think that you are being mean spirited and highly judgemental in this case. Why after all, the presider has to keep the Mass relevent or people might actually start looking for another place to spend their time

Lets get serious, OK, give the presider a chance, its hard to be an MC these days.

 

[Br_Mark]

Dear japhy;

First off I must state I do not know what seminary you were in where you attended this mass in question. (diocesesan / religious)
But from what you described (the choir seating), it sounds as if it is a religious order. But that is neither here nor there.

My question is why did you not ask the questions that you posted to the priest, it sounds like he was open to answering any question asked.

You are quite handy at quoting the GIRM, but if this was a religious community are you as able to quote from the communities Customary or Consitution and by-laws ?

A gospel reading from daily mass comes to mind, which was in the lectionary a couple of weeks ago; Mark 7:1-20 My question to you is where does your feelings / beliefs / knowlege - concerning with following the rubrics as you see and understand them -fit in with this gospel reading of Jesus eating with the pharisees.

Looking forward to hearing from you,

Br Mark, OSB

 

[japhy]

I think that you are being mean spirited and highly judgemental in this case. Why after all, the presider has to keep the Mass relevent or people might actually start looking for another place to spend their time

The Mass was held at our request. We’re a group of Catholics in our 20’s/30’s, and we meet a couple times a month at the seminary for fellowship, and we recently started having a Mass once a month. One of the group’s organizers asked the priest to say Mass for us.

We’re all Catholics (although perhaps some of the members are feeling a bit “disenfranchised” because of their age). There’s no danger of us “looking for another place”. We don’t need a more “relevant” Mass. We need the Mass.

Lets get serious, OK, give the presider a chance, its hard to be an MC these days.

“Presider”. “MC”. I really can’t stand these terms being used for priests. They are celebrants.

 

[Teeliumtrozzle]

I’m not going to comment,but am praying for Fr. Bill…

 

[palmas85]

The Mass was held at our request. We’re a group of Catholics in our 20’s/30’s, and we meet a couple times a month at the seminary for fellowship, and we recently started having a Mass once a month. One of the group’s organizers asked the priest to say Mass for us.

We’re all Catholics (although perhaps some of the members are feeling a bit “disenfranchised” because of their age). There’s no danger of us “looking for another place”. We don’t need a more “relevant” Mass. We need the Mass.

“Presider”. “MC”. I really can’t stand these terms being used for priests. They are celebrants.

Actually Presider is the preferred term these days. MC is my own because that is what most of them are now a days, MCs

 

[japhy]

Actually Presider is the preferred term these days. MC is my own because that is what most of them are now a days, MCs

Preferred by whom, and since when? The GIRM uses the term “priest celebrant” or “celebrant”, and never once uses the term “presider”. In the GIRM, the word “presides” is used nine times in all:
The General Structure of the Mass
In celebrations at which the Bishop presides… (22)

The Prayers and Other Parts Pertaining to the Priest
These prayers are addressed to God in the name of the entire holy people and all present, by the priest who presides over the assembly in the person of Christ. (30)

The priest, in fact, as the one who presides, prays in the name of the Church and of the assembled community… (33)

The Duties of Those in Holy Order
A priest also, who possesses within the Church the power of Holy Orders to offer sacrifice in the person of Christ, stands for this reason at the head of the faithful people gathered together here and now, presides over their prayer, proclaims the message of salvation to them, associates the people with himself in the offering of sacrifice through Christ in the Holy Spirit to God the Father, gives his brothers and sisters the Bread of eternal life, and partakes of it with them. (93)

The Distribution of Duties and The Preparation of the Celebration
The priest who presides at the celebration, however, always retains the right of arranging those things that are his own responsibility. (111)

The Different Forms of Celebrating Mass
In the local Church, first place should certainly be given, because of its significance, to the Mass at which the Bishop presides, surrounded by his presbyterate, deacons, and lay ministers, and in which the holy people of God participate fully and actively, for it is there that the preeminent expression of the Church is found. At a Mass celebrated by the Bishop or at which he presides without celebrating the Eucharist, the norms found in the Caeremoniale Episcoporum should be observed. (112)

The Articles to Be Prepared
The following are also to be prepared:
… 3. On the credence table: … bread for the Communion of the priest who presides, the deacon, the ministers, and the people; … (118)

The Liturgy of the Word
During the Liturgy of the Word, the concelebrants remain at their places, sitting or standing whenever the principal celebrant does. When the Alleluia is begun, all rise, except for a Bishop, who puts incense into the thurible without saying anything and blesses the deacon or, if there is no deacon, the concelebrant who is to proclaim the Gospel. In a concelebration where a priest presides, however, the concelebrant who in the absence of a deacon proclaims the Gospel neither requests nor receives the blessing of the principal celebrant. (212)
Compare that with this, from the index of the GIRM:
Celebrant 24, 31, 59, 66, 71, 83, 92, 108, 114, 116, 140, 149, 162, 171, 206, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 274, 294, 310, 337, 376
All I’m saying is, the priest’s primary role in the Mass is as celebrant; part of his duties as celebrant involves presiding over the prayers (called the “presidential prayers”). When a Bishop is presiding, he may or may not also be the celebrant (as GIRM 112 makes clear). Thus, “presider” != “celebrant”. Even someone who’s not a priest or bishop can “preside” over certain functions in extreme cases (such as liturgies of the Word and Communion services that take place outside of the Mass).

And only 11 documents on the Vatican web site (as far as Google knows) use the term “presider”, versus 120 that use “celebrant”. Even post-Vatican II documents of the Church use “celebrant” over and above “presider”.

 

[japhy]

First off I must state I do not know what seminary you were in where you attended this mass in question. (diocesesan / religious)

You are quite handy at quoting the GIRM, but if this was a religious community are you as able to quote from the communities Customary or Consitution and by-laws ?

I don’t think the Seminary is actually in use anymore. It is occupied by Vincentians, who rent it out for use by youth groups, Confirmation candidates, retreats, etc. I do not know their particular laws, but I would be rather surprised if they were permitted to do such a Mass on a regular basis (omitting so many parts of the Latin Rite).

My question is why did you not ask the questions that you posted to the priest, it sounds like he was open to answering any question asked.

A gospel reading from daily mass comes to mind, which was in the lectionary a couple of weeks ago; Mark 7:1-20 My question to you is where does your feelings / beliefs / knowlege - concerning with following the rubrics as you see and understand them -fit in with this gospel reading of Jesus eating with the pharisees.

I will respond to this later, but I’m on my way out the door right now. Let me briefly say this is not a matter of “ugh, how can I associate with a sinner!?” I am a sinner myself, I know, and I seek God’s forgiveness. But the Mass was treated very irreverently, as far as I understand the GIRM, the Sacramentary, and the other rules of the liturgy.

 

[japhy]

My question is why did you not ask the questions that you posted to the priest, it sounds like he was open to answering any question asked.

I did not want to “pick a fight”. When he invited questions, I suspect he was inviting questions like “What is that dish that holds the bread?” or “What does that prayer mean?” or “Why do we make the cross on our head, lips, and heart?” The questions I wanted to ask were more along the lines of: “Why are you doing things you aren’t permitted to do in the name of ‘community’?” and “Why are you omitting parts of the Mass?” and “Why are you instructing us to break rules as well?”

Perhaps I should have asked, “Father, with all the disobedience you are demonstrating in your deviation from the liturgy of the Mass, why shouldn’t I be disobedient to your instructions?” Or perhaps, “Father, if you’re allowed to change the wording of the prayers as you feel, may I do the same as well?”

These were not the questions he wanted to be asked in front of five other people; that’s not the proper time or place. I knew that much.

You are quite handy at quoting the GIRM, but if this was a religious community are you as able to quote from the communities Customary or Consitution and by-laws?

I have no idea what the local, national, or international regulations of the Vincentians are, in terms of the celebration of Mass differing from the prescriptions of the current Roman Missal.

A gospel reading from daily mass comes to mind, which was in the lectionary a couple of weeks ago; Mark 7:1-20 My question to you is where does your feelings / beliefs / knowlege - concerning with following the rubrics as you see and understand them -fit in with this gospel reading of Jesus eating with the pharisees.

I am not entirely sure I see the connection between the Gospel passage and the predicament I’ve explained. Could you help me understand?

 

[Br_Mark]

Dear japhy;

From the situation you discribed it sounds as if the mass / eucharist was celebrated in an informal manner for a small group in a monastic setting. That is why I brought up what was the customary for that monastic “house”. For example there are three major ways to say the daily offices; there is Cathedral (which is formal / with all the smells and bells), Monastic (which at times is very informal / because it is the daily work of the monks involved, i.e. opius dei) and there is Indiviual recitation of the office which as you most likely know is different from the other two in how the daily office is executed.

It is not uncommon for the monks sitting in the choir to sit during the readings and to read from the choir where one is vs going to the ambo to read. While it is not common to sit for the gospel reading (usually all stand) it is not unheard of, especially in a small informal group.

You mentioned how the priest was dressed, something about his frayed jeans, well I can not speak for him but a a monk following the Rule of St Benedict, you know we have a habit to wear as outlined in the rule. However if you stop by the abbey let say for noon day prayer the odds are you will not find the majority of us in monastic garb; because as a monk we are all given different jobs to perform during the day, from cleaning, the refectory, the farm, etc. If I am cleaning the barn or feeding the animals, I will not be dressed in my monastic habit. And going from that chore to one of the daily offices, I most likely will be in my overalls. (and oh my gosh !! they are blue and not black !! LOL)

The reason that I mentioned the reading from Mark is that Jesus and his disciples were questioned by the pharisees for not following the ritual / law of washing before eating. The question is, is it the following of the rule / law which is of most importance or is it the inner most reality , which the rule is to reflect which is of most importance ? Again the same question asked in a different way, Is man made for the sabbath, or is the sabbath made for man ?

If this raises more questions than answers feel free to ask,
in the mean time,
God’s Blessings,

Br Mark, OSB