Jerusalem ,Islam's 3rd most Holy site.

[famdigy]

Or is it? I would like to know where in the Qur’an does it state that Jerusalem is a Holy site. Not only that, but where in the Quran does it state that the Temple Mount is claimed to belong to Islam? From what I understand this is fairly a very recent claim. From what I understand,there are no Islamic writings preceding the 1930’s to claim the Temple Mount as holy to Islam. In 632 c.e.,Muhammad’s death, there were no mosques in Jerusalem. At that time, it was a Christian occupied city.
from imninalu.net/myths-pals.htm ( start at “II - Myths and facts about Jerusalem and Temple Mount”)

You’ll get a different answer depending on who you ask. Most if not all Shia Muslims believe the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh&hf) didn’t travel to Jerusalem on the night journey and the al-aqsa mosque mentioned in the Qur’an is not located in Jerusalem.

Ali bin Ibrahim al-Qummi, relying on the Isnad of Isma’il al-Ju’fi, narrated: “I was sitting in the Sacred Mosque in Makkah, when Abu Jafar – **Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (pbuh) **- took a glance at the heaven and another glance at the Kaa’bah.

“He then recited the verse: “Glorified (and Exalted) is He (Allah) who took His servant (Muhammad, pbuh&hf) for a journey by night from Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (the Sacred Mosque in Makkah) to the Masjid al-aqsa (farthest mosque)’. He repeated this three times.

“He then turned towards me and said, ‘What do the people of Iraq say about this verse, O Iraqi?’ I said: ‘They say that he (the Prophet peace be upon him and his pure family) was taken for a night journey from the Sacred Mosque to Jerusalem.’ He then said: ‘It is not as they say, rather he was taken for a night journey from here to there’, pointing to the heaven. And he added, ‘What is in between them is sacred.’” (Tafsir al-Qummi v2, p 243)

 

[FaithJoy]

Very interesting,so you are saying that he is actually denying that Jerusalem is a holy city?

‘It is not as they say, rather he was taken for a night journey from here to there’, pointing to the heaven.

I guess the main point though, where does it say in the Quran specifically that the Temple Mount location was the actual location of a holy site to Islam and why. In other words, if it is, how is it that the original site for a Jewish Temple is selected rather other multimillion posibilities in Jerusalem?

 

[KathleenGee]

The point is the actual time line in history. There were no mosques in Jerusalem when Mohammed had his dream.

And Jerusalem was already being built as a city during that time. Scriptures says Abraham took Isaac out into the wilderness, not in the city – where he could be apprehended by others --to sacrifice his son.

Anthropologists think Abraham brought Isaac out to an area near Nablus or Sidon…a wilderness at that time.

The Sunnis believe more in the passing down of their beliefs. The Shia’s believe the passing down is through Mohammed’s relatives. Correct me if I am wrong, but that is how I basically see the difference between Sunnis and Shia’s.

The Umayyids were landgrabbers, Syrian warriors…having problems with truthfulness…again, from my sources.

A nephew of Mohammed was incensed with the Umayyids for claiming the rock as that of Abraham’s near the partially destroyed site of St. Mary Major…because the conquerors wanted to use the rock as a land claim…and the nephew, while believing it was the altar stone of Abraham, considered it holy and not to be defamed as a conquest symbol.

 

[Amir_the_Masihi]

The Sunnis believe more in the passing down of their beliefs. The Shia’s believe the passing down is through Mohammed’s relatives. Correct me if I am wrong, but that is how I basically see the difference between Sunnis and Shia’s.

Hey Kathleen; long time, no see! Wow, it’s been since January that we last spoke. At least my 2 months hiatus paid off, I got 4 As and 2 A*s in my exams.

But, to your point. Yes, that is one of the the basic difference between the Sunni and the Shia. The Sunnis believed that the next Caliph was to be chosen through a shura - i.e. a council - whereas the Shia believed that Muhammad had appointed Ali as successor on several occasions during his lifetime. Then things become almost conspiracy-like, as every descendant of Muhammad claimed by the Shia has been assassinated. Moreover, the Shia say that the companions of Muhammad killed Muhammad’s daughter along with the child she was pregnant with. Not to mention the bloody wars fought between the so called Sunni and Shia, with Muhammad’s son-in-law on one side and Muhammad’s favourite wife on the other.

In short, there is enough scandal within Islam during the first few years post-Muhammad that would make even the biggest gossips blush.

So, the question of ‘passing down’ is certainly a significant one within the divide, but even then, you’re barely scratching the surface.

 

[KathleenGee]

Hi Amir…

And good to hear from you…I can follow you and your explanations more than anyone on Islam…I am glad you did so well in school…wonder what you are studying…

But as you can see, I can only understand a little…glad I got a little right.

Human nature can be scandalous. Christ dying on the cross as a criminal was a scandal…

Some Christians are scandalized by other Christians if those have kids who do bad things around town…not realizing the kids are that parents’ highway to heaven, living a virtuous life and praying, suffering, and doing all that they can to see their kids come back to the path they showed them. We can’t judge by appearances.

Before God, every person is equal. He doesn’t need us. He created us out of love. What pleases Him is avoiding sin and treating our neighbor as brethren.

I was deeply touched by the Muslims in Egypt who protected the Copt Christians. These are descendants of those who never left Christianity going waaay back.

I see the Middle Eastern needs for democracy, but I can’t help but wonder what each one understands democracy to be…I pray for the Middle East, so many do around the world, but we are afraid of the political Islam rising…Tunisian Christians are loosing their churches by extremists…

Anyway, back to the thread…the more we know the truth of what really happened, the truth about each other, and then seeing we are no different, does alot to help bring peace and the right to mutual existence…but so hard to implement.

Some people take a long time. Some even longer like centuries…then others, like millenia…Keep up the good work.

I think you can be of great help to people some day…

 

[Wesley7]

Cool thread

 

[Stephen0]

Sure. What Muslims believe and what is stated in the Qur’an is that all the prophets have had the same deen–religion or way of life, even if they had different laws. So Muslims believe God sent all His Prophets (including Noah and Abraham and Moses and Aaron and David and John and Jesus and Muhammad too) with the same basic message, which is essentially the message of Islam. Worship God exclusively, submit to His will, obey Him, live righteously and repent of sins.
So anyone following that message would be called a Muslim–a term in the Qur’an used not just for people following Muhammad, but for people following other Prophets and Messengers too.

But “mosque” implies a different meaning than we find in the Qur’an. The word masjid, which is usually translated as “mosque” comes from the root س ج د which refers to prostrating. The word is an اسم ظرف or noun of location, and it literally means the place where one prostrates.
It does not mean a building. In fact, according to an authentic hadith, the entire earth is a masjid. “I have been granted five things which were not granted to any other prophet before me: (one of them) The whole earth has been made a Masjid, and pure for me, so whenever the time of prayer comes for anyone of you, he should pray wherever he is.”

So when the Qur’an mentions Masjid Al-Aqsa it’s not actually referring to a “mosque” or a building at all. It was referring in the general sense to a “place of prostration.” Why was it called that? Because the previous “Muslims” used to “prostrate” there, which in particular refers to the Children of Israel.

Sister Amy, I understand what you are saying but I hope that you are not pushing the idea that all the earth and everything on it really should or is predisposed and has been of Islam at some time in the past. Be careful, for this then becomes an old American joke that usually brings a good laugh. I remember as a kid some 55 years ago chuckling at a well known southern stand up comedian who told a joke about how the North was really an extension of the south, so it didn’t give those Northern kats any turf to stand on. Since such a statement defies logic it gets a good laugh in a good part of this country.

 

[Lapell]

Sure. What Muslims believe and what is stated in the Qur’an is that all the prophets have had the same deen–religion or way of life, even if they had different laws. So Muslims believe God sent all His Prophets (including Noah and Abraham and Moses and Aaron and David and John and Jesus and Muhammad too) with the same basic message, which is essentially the message of Islam. Worship God exclusively, submit to His will, obey Him, live righteously and repent of sins.

So anyone following that message would be called a Muslim–a term in the Qur’an used not just for people following Muhammad, but for people following other Prophets and Messengers too.

So anyone who followed Moses, believed him a prophet and obeyed Him to worship God, would be called a Muslim. So at that time, the Children of Israel were Muslims. Similarly, the people who adopted the message of Jesus (during his lifetime) to worship God, they’re considered Muslims as well.

Hi, Sister Amy!
My question is, do all Muslim leaders consider Jews and Christians as Muslims? I would have thought they would consider them to be such as long as they would believe the exact same things that are found to be stated in the Qu’ran…

 

[Lapell]

Hi, Sister Amy!
My question is, do all Muslim leaders consider Jews and Christians as Muslims? I would have thought they would consider them to be such as long as they would believe the exact same things that are found to be stated in the Qu’ran…

This question is also for those others among the readers who are Muslim, not just Sister Amy… Thank you! May God bless you!

 

[manualman]

So anyone who followed Moses, believed him a prophet and obeyed Him to worship God, would be called a Muslim. So at that time, the Children of Israel were Muslims. Similarly, the people who adopted the message of Jesus (during his lifetime) to worship God, they’re considered Muslims as well.

Well that is an unusually frank admission for a muslim. Basically I think I hear you saying that all the faithful people of the book who came BEFORE Muhammed would have accepted Muhammed as the prophet had they lived in his time. Thus it is only natural that Islam is the logical heir of all the pre-Muhammed Jewish and Christian historic and holy places. Thus muslims have the divine right to expel Jews from the Temple Mount area, erect their own places of worship, seize the Hagia Sophia and evict its former owners, and so on and so forth throughout the ancient lands of Christendom?

And muslims wonder why christians worry about allowing muslims to immigrate to their countries?

 

[Lapell]

Hey Kathleen; long time, no see! Wow, it’s been since January that we last spoke. At least my 2 months hiatus paid off, I got 4 As and 2 A*s in my exams.

But, to your point. Yes, that is one of the the basic difference between the Sunni and the Shia. The Sunnis believed that the next Caliph was to be chosen through a shura - i.e. a council - whereas the Shia believed that Muhammad had appointed Ali as successor on several occasions during his lifetime. Then things become almost conspiracy-like, as every descendant of Muhammad claimed by the Shia has been assassinated. Moreover, the Shia say that the companions of Muhammad killed Muhammad’s daughter along with the child she was pregnant with. Not to mention the bloody wars fought between the so called Sunni and Shia, with Muhammad’s son-in-law on one side and Muhammad’s favourite wife on the other.

In short, there is enough scandal within Islam during the first few years post-Muhammad that would make even the biggest gossips blush.

So, the question of ‘passing down’ is certainly a significant one within the divide, but even then, you’re barely scratching the surface.

Given what Amir says right here…
Could this raise some doubts on the authenticity of at least certain surahs? Might some of them been added after Muhammad’s death? How can we be sure it never could be the case?

 

[KathleenGee]

That is what I have read by those who have studied Islam’s development…and Muslims themselves saying these parts were added…more militant.

And that it is the Umayyids who created this idea that Abraham’s rock to sacrifice his son was in Jerusalem. A relative of Mohammed who was present knew of this practice by Umayyids to make up claims for land grabs.

Mohammed saw Jerusalem from a distance and had no interest in it. The story of him rising up to the farthest mosque at that time was not Jerusalem but Medina or Mecca…within a 10 miles radius.

So to say Islam is justified in claiming the Jewish/Christian Holy Land for itself based on Mohammed is not verified. Looking at all the troubles there, only the truth coming to the light can bring peace to that part of the world.

 

[Lapell]

That is what I have read by those who have studied Islam’s development…and Muslims themselves saying these parts were added…more militant.

And that it is the Umayyids who created this idea that Abraham’s rock to sacrifice his son was in Jerusalem. A relative of Mohammed who was present knew of this practice by Umayyids to make up claims for land grabs.

Mohammed saw Jerusalem from a distance and had no interest in it. The story of him rising up to the farthest mosque at that time was not Jerusalem but Medina or Mecca…within a 10 miles radius.

So to say Islam is justified in claiming the Jewish/Christian Holy Land for itself based on Mohammed is not verified. Looking at all the troubles there, only the truth coming to the light can bring peace to that part of the world.

Which may not happen before the Messiah’s Return…

 

[KathleenGee]

True…my pastor’s greatest fear is the intent to re-build the Temple…

 

[Lapell]

Given what happened when somebody tried to put a first foundation stone as a first step to rebuild the Temple, there might take quite a while before anyone would try it again.

 

[Contarini]

Not every group you mentioned would proclaim that they are the victors over the Jewish people. Church of the Blessed Virgin has never been a war victory church.Christians wouldn’t say that war or suppression of the Jewish people is valid to Christian history.

Most Christians would say that now. Many Christians have said just that in the past.

Any doubts? What are they trying to do in NYC from 911.

What anti-Muslim rabble-rousers claim they are trying to do. That’s not at all what the Muslims involved in the project say they are doing.

Would you like Protestants to trust your word, as a Catholic, that your intentions toward them are benign, or would you like them to trust some anti-Catholic’s speculations as to your intentions?

Then apply the Golden Rule and see what happens!

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Or is it? I would like to know where in the Qur’an does it state that Jerusalem is a Holy site. Not only that, but where in the Quran does it state that the Temple Mount is claimed to belong to Islam? From what I understand this is fairly a very recent claim. From what I understand,there are no Islamic writings preceding the 1930’s to claim the Temple Mount as holy to Islam. In 632 c.e.,Muhammad’s death, there were no mosques in Jerusalem. At that time, it was a Christian occupied city.
from imninalu.net/myths-pals.htm ( start at “II - Myths and facts about Jerusalem and Temple Mount”)

Traditional Islam is not a “sola scriptura” religion. Islamic tradition has a great deal to say about Jerusalem. There’s an entire genre of medieval Islamic literature called “In Praise of Jerusalem.” Your sources are either misinformed or dishonest.

Edwin