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LibralAteoJesus
Guest
Was Paul more dogmatic than Jesus?
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Jon_S_1
Guest
This is an interesting question. The answer is no, but it is interesting to look at.
When I was Evangelical. I went to countless Bible Studies and heard countless Sermons from Paul’s letters. Which is all fine and dandy, except…
We just did cursory studies of the words of Jesus.
Then the hard passages of Jesus such as Matt 7 or John 6, or Matt 16 or Matt 18. They were all glanced over or sort of dismissed by the idea that we were taught supposedly by Paul that all that matters is Faith (Belief) in Jesus.
When I started plainly reading Jesus’ words, it was a bit shocking.
SO the bottom line is it all needs to go together. You can’t separate them, they are part of one Body, and one Message and so you need to look at it in that light and see how they complement.
When I was Evangelical. I went to countless Bible Studies and heard countless Sermons from Paul’s letters. Which is all fine and dandy, except…
We just did cursory studies of the words of Jesus.
Then the hard passages of Jesus such as Matt 7 or John 6, or Matt 16 or Matt 18. They were all glanced over or sort of dismissed by the idea that we were taught supposedly by Paul that all that matters is Faith (Belief) in Jesus.
When I started plainly reading Jesus’ words, it was a bit shocking.
SO the bottom line is it all needs to go together. You can’t separate them, they are part of one Body, and one Message and so you need to look at it in that light and see how they complement.
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Polycarp1
Guest
Since Catholic Dogma are the teachings of Christ and Saint Paul taught the teachings of Christ the question doesn’t really fit in my opinion. And it is obvious that during his 3 year public ministry He said and taught a lot more than was written down about Him later on that He left us a great deal of Dogma!
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CrossofChrist
Guest
meaningless question.
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Iron_Donkey
Guest
What does dogmatic mean? Insistence that what is true is true, and that which is false is false?
Then no. “I am the way, the Truth, and the life.” God is truth. Opposition to God is falsehood. Doesn’t get much more dogmatic than that.
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DaveBj
Guest
There are streams in Protestantism (none of which I was associated with, but I have heard/read about them) where it is taught that Jesus’ words were directed at the Jews, and when they rejected him, that particular teaching became null and void, and was superceded by Paul’s teaching. So one would get a lot of Romans from the pulpit, but not a word about the Sermon on the Mount.
You are, of course, absolutely correct – it does all need to be taken together.
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Qoeleth
Guest
I suppose it would be fair to say that the teachings of Jesus are more in the ascetic tradition, emphasizing renunciation of the world, the self, and obedience to the law. THe teachings of Paul emphasize faith in the redemptive effect of the death and Resurrection of Christ. To oversimplify:
- if you follow the teaching of Jesus, you become a Fransiscan, a Trappist, a Daughter of Charity, etc., renouncing property, marriage, homeland.
- if you follow the teachings of Paul, you become an upper-middle class Protestant, with kids, a mortgage.
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DaveBj
Guest
In the words of Larry Lea (a Protestant, but not a Paulinist), “Read the red and pray for the power.”
(For those who don’t get it, many Protestant-published Bibles have the words of Jesus printed in red.)
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17_Gen_r
Guest
Paul is one of the greatest philosophers to walk the earth. But he was killed for Jesus’ sake, made white, because he did teach something against Jesus.
He who discovers the true Jesus shall not taste death.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
I don’t know your background but revelation was written by John and the first two chapters consist of him dictating what Christ said to him.
Your comment makes no sense.
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17_Gen_r
Guest
Paul is Jesus’ chosen. Jesus did know what Paul was to teach. Paul’s doctrine isn’t exactly Jesus’ doctrine. He who follows Jesus’ doctrine dies not because his doctrine, his blood is life. False doctrines are wicked women. Wisdom is a beautiful woman according to Solomon.
One dies because of sin, if we sin not we die not. We’re not Jesus. If you know & work Jesus’ doctrine you die not.
Those who live in heaven know this, those who live on earth do not.
Paul is of a rare intelligence.
Babylon, that mysterious whore, is a tree / great city / axiom. The religions are its fruits / districts / theorems e.g., Catholicism, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism or Hinduism, to each nation its saints: Satan’s relativism. You know the tree by its fruits.
One dies because of sin, if we sin not we die not. We’re not Jesus. If you know & work Jesus’ doctrine you die not.
Those who live in heaven know this, those who live on earth do not.
Paul is of a rare intelligence.
Babylon, that mysterious whore, is a tree / great city / axiom. The religions are its fruits / districts / theorems e.g., Catholicism, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism or Hinduism, to each nation its saints: Satan’s relativism. You know the tree by its fruits.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
This is why the magisterium is so important …
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17_Gen_r
Guest
Isn’t the Pope your father? What about your church?
Isn’t your master the Magisterium?
Fear God.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
I’d like you to give me one reason why you have any authority to use the Book the Catholic Church compiled called the Bible, to tell me anything about being a Christian.
You have no authority, just your opinion.
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17_Gen_r
Guest
Did not Luther found a sect?
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Jon_S_1
Guest
And yet that division is due to sin not Jesus’ heart. It is a consequence if men following Christ and his one truth, while others follow themselves and the world.
There is one truth from God.
Luther relied on himself and acted against Christ (SEE BELOW)
John 17:21
That they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Cor 1:10-13
Titus 3:9-11
But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
Romans 16:17-18
I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
Ephesians 4:3-6
Eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
1 Peter 1:22-25
Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; for “All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord remains forever.” And this word is the good news that was preached to you.
Jude 1:16-19
These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage. But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. They said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.
Luke 11:17
But he, knowing their thoughts, said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and a divided household falls.
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17_Gen_r
Guest
Jesus died & rose for his brothers only, those that he found worthy, those given to him by his Father. This is supported by your excerpts, I thank you for them.
Analysis / unfolding / division reveals falsities e.g., reductio ad absurdum.
Why does Jesus divide? Here.
Saint = Kodesh, what’s the meaning of Kodesh?
Analysis / unfolding / division reveals falsities e.g., reductio ad absurdum.
Why does Jesus divide? Here.
Saint = Kodesh, what’s the meaning of Kodesh?
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adrift
Guest
Jesus is God. God knows everything. Therefore it is false that Jesus did not know what Paul would teach
Paul is a faithful son who taught perfectly what Jesus wanted.
Jesus warned us about those who would come His name and teach false doctrines. He left us with a Church to protect us from wondering who had the false doctrine.
One dies because of turning against God which is sin. What do you mean by die? If you mean the body than you teach a false doctrine. If you mean the spirit, than you are with Jesus who said that you should not fear the one who kills your body but kills your spirit. Jesus promised a protection that the gates of hades would not prevail against His Church the Church He gives authority to by the Keys He gave to Peter.
meaningless words.
Are you calling Catholics the whore of Babylon?
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adrift
Guest
So Jesus didn’t die for women
just His brothers?
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Iron_Donkey
Guest
I like reductio ad absurdum. Let’s do it.
Assumption A1: Those who truly follow Christ won’t die for said teaching.
But Christ followed Christ, by definition. And Christ died, for doing what He did.
Therefore there is Someone who truly followed Christ who died because of it.
And we have reductiod to an absurdum. Supported by the numerous parables in which Jesus says that as bad as the things are that were done to Him, worse will be done to us in His name. You are confusing Earthly death with the death that is Hell.
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