Jesuits Convene on Liturgy

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Quotes from their relased information:

"The need for greater community involvement and freedom to creatively bring about a people’s inculturation in liturgy were issues discussed recently in Thailand by Jesuit liturgists from around the globe.

Organiser Fr Keith Pecklers said liturgical inculturation is “very important” for the Church today, because liturgy should not be “dead.”

The congress brought together Jesuits and other experts in the liturgy field to share information and practice regarding inculturation to help make liturgy alive, he said.

During the press conference, Fr Mmichael Amaladoss from Chennai, India, noted that though Catholics celebrate the Eucharist every day, the liturgy is basically rooted in a foreign Roman culture.

“This is the reason why believers do not feel that they genuinely participate in religious practices,” he said.
“Catholics, whether they are Indians or Thais, are accused of being believers of a religion of foreigners. For me, it is important to integrate liturgy into culture. Such integration should not only be in the pastoral and evangelizing fields, but also in the realm of the spiritual life,” he said.

In his paper, Fr Amaladoss explored “sacramental action” at three levels.

“At the first level is a community meal: a group of people eating and drinking together,” he said, calling this the ritual level. This meal “symbolises fellowship, togetherness and equality,” he observed, noting that “sharing food is sharing life.” There also is a social level of meaning.

“When this meal is taken in memory of Jesus by a community of his disciples obeying his command a third, mysteric level is added. Jesus’ bodily presence in the food is encountered in faith and the community has living fellowship with Jesus. Jesus giving his life to us and for us is a sacrificial action. Sharing his life he shares God’s life with us,” he explained…"

jesuit.org/sections/sub.asp?SECTION_ID=193&SUBSECTION_ID=596&PARENT_ID=
 
And before everyone goes off the deep end of this, stop and reflect on the differences between the liturgy of the Roman rite, and the Eastern liturgies. And if you are not familiar with them, perhaps you should become so before you wade in. 👍
 
The Jesuits raised the same issue when they were trying to bring the Word of God to China. They actually received permission to translate the Roman Missal into Chinese so that, instead of saying Mass in Latin, it could be said in the vernacular. The translation was never completed (for a number of reasons), but the desire to make the Liturgy and the Word of God more accessible to the people has never gone away.

Deacon Ed
 
Somehow the “sacrificial” aspect got relegated to the “3rd level?” I would have put it first.
 
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drforjc:
Somehow the “sacrificial” aspect got relegated to the “3rd level?” I would have put it first.
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I too saw it as emphasis on “meal” and "c ommunity"not on sacrifice - IOW all about “us” again.
 
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drforjc:
Somehow the “sacrificial” aspect got relegated to the “3rd level?” I would have put it first.
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I think that the speaker was illustrating the increasingly more important nature of gatherings of the faithful, trying to explain it in a hierarchical model. At its most basic level, it is a communal gathering; at some higher level, it is a societal gathering; at its highest level, it is the recreation of Christ’s Sacrifice.

I might have chosen slightly different terminology - family meal, communal gathering, Sacrifice. Terminology aside, by placing it “third”, I think it was his intent that it be seen as the zenith. In a trio of things (unless its the Trinity) whether the first or third is the most important is a function of the speaker’s intent in ordering - my ordinary choice would be to work upward to the most important. To speak of or address the most important item first means that the others will never be addressed, given short shrift, or never heard by listeners - an undesirable outcome when one is trying to discuss and understand ethno-socio-cultural considerations and how they effect evangelism and the expression of liturgical worship.

Many years,

Neil
 
Neil, certainly that is possible (numbering in “ascending” order more or less); usually, though, in expository writing it’s most often the custom to begin with the most important point and descend.
 
I was reminded upon reading the title of this thread of a Jesuit headmaster’s speech I attended, referring to the Jesuits historical focus on other things than liturgy, " A succesful Jesuit liturgy is one where no one dies…"🙂
 
When I taught at a major Catholic university, one of my colleagues was a Dominican priest who had spent 14 years in a prison camp for saying mass in China. He was very much a political prisoner and his fellow prisoners included Tibetan monks and CIA operatives. My friend was a very lucky man…someone from the Vatican actually worked very hard to secure his release…and was successful after all that time.

It’s hard for us to sit here and understand the pressures of the clergy in oppressive cultures. If they convene and try to figure out what they need to do to be more successful at staying alive and having a healthy, non-incarcerated congregation, then we need to defer a little to their good judgment. Thailand, though the most westernized of the SE Asian cultures, is still not a safe place for our priests and religious. India is a dangerous place, especially in the NE near Pakistan. China is outright hostile to any religion, let alone ours. I would rather see the Jesuits be proactive in addressing issues than to see our priests fail and end up with a fate worse than death.
 
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drforjc:
Neil, certainly that is possible (numbering in “ascending” order more or less); usually, though, in expository writing it’s most often the custom to begin with the most important point and descend.
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Agreed. I have never been to a talk where they buil up to the “top” - the important points were discussed initially and then lesser or minor points brought in.
 
Sounds like the Jesuits are on their way to a schism at best or a heresy at worse.
 
tom.wineman said:
Sounds like the Jesuits are on their way to a schism at best or a heresy at worse.
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Then there is the opinion that they are no longer on the way; they have already arrived. :yup:
 
And again, we paint all with one brush. Come on, Joe, you can do better than that.

Tom: have you read the article, or are you just shooting from the lip? Are you aware of any of the Eastern liturgies? Do you consider them illegitimate, or some sort of deviant from the Roman rite? Do you have any knowlege of proper and correct liturgical research and change, or are you of the opinion that it was set in stone at the death of the last Apostle? Is it possible that both Vatican 2 and Pope John Paul 2 might have something to say about the interface of culture and Christianity?

Haggia: I have been to talks where the most importnat point was introduced at the beginning, to lay out the “map” of where the talk was going; but few that developed the most important part first, then worked downhill through the minor points. Perhaps it is point of view? Logical progression does work from the minor to the major…
 
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otm:
And again, we paint all with one brush. Come on, Joe, you can do better than that.

Tom: have you read the article, or are you just shooting from the lip? Are you aware of any of the Eastern liturgies? Do you consider them illegitimate, or some sort of deviant from the Roman rite? Do you have any knowlege of proper and correct liturgical research and change, or are you of the opinion that it was set in stone at the death of the last Apostle? Is it possible that both Vatican 2 and Pope John Paul 2 might have something to say about the interface of culture and Christianity?
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No lip shooting here but sounds like holy baloney from the Jesuits.

**I’m very aware of Eastern Rites and am even considering joining one to get away from what has become **of the massacre of the Roman Rite.

This word “inculturation” is an euphemism, for secular intrusion and a precursor to new geographic Rites like the SE Asian Rite, African Rite, China Rite , North American Rite and on and on.
 
Rome has already issued documents on inculturation. It can never alter the essentials of the Mass. It is more then just a meal. Unfortunately the Jesuits are often less then orthodox. Their methods have dried up conversions. Yet still they don’t ask why. They blame Rome or the Mass instead. Let’s face it, the Society isn’t what is used to be.
 
tom.wineman said:
No lip shooting here but sounds like holy baloney from the Jesuits.

**I’m very aware of Eastern Rites and am even considering joining one to get away from what has become **of the massacre of the Roman Rite.

This word “inculturation” is an euphemism, for secular intrusion and a precursor to new geographic Rites like the SE Asian Rite, African Rite, China Rite , North American Rite and on and on.
Click to expand...

Given that the Eastern rites were and are essentially from geographic rites, I am not sure what your objection is.

I don’t agree that the Roman rite has suffered any “massacre”. I can seperate out abuses from changes. The Roman rite isn’t a museum piece. It is a form of worship which has had modifications throughout the centuries. And it is still in its essence what it started out as.
 
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